Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

Wibble said:
To me? No. But pretending that there aren't military objectives to (possibly inadvertently) absolve Hamas of any blame and to paint Israel in and even worse light does not help anything and only makes the current shit show worse.
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Sorry to say, but you’re either missing the point or being deliberately obtuse.

You first argued that people support Hamas by virtue of disliking what Israel are doing. That was duly corrected. Bar moved.

You then argued that people didn’t believe that Hamas was using tunnels. That was duly corrected and you moved the bar again.

You then argued that people didn’t believe there was any possibility of there being tunnels under/near the hospital. Once again that was duly corrected, since it’s not that people don’t believe it’s possible, but rather are hesitant just to simply take Israel’s word for it. You have your view an agenda, you have therefore concluded that there probably are tunnels there. Others are more skeptical. OK, reasonable position to take though.

But the real point which you aren’t understanding is that regardless, even if there were, and even if that made the hospital a “valid” military target in your eyes, people for the most part are taking issue with HOW Israel are going about it. No one is saying that IF Hamas did have a super command centre in a bunker under the hospital, that Israel shouldn’t deal with it. But the response should reflect the situation. And in my view and in many others, that response shouldn’t involve methods such as bombings which inherently result in significant civilian casualties.

You can continue to peddle the line that people are biased and brainwashed or whatever. But the truth is they aren’t and If you take the team to understand the nuance of the point many are making, you might realise that you and they are probably in agreement. I don’t want to believe you feel that dropping bombs on or near the hospital is an appropriate action. And if that’s the case, then the only point of disagreement is how confidently you feel the tunnels are there in the first place.

You can understand why Israel is doing what they are doing, agree that Hamas needs to be removed, and mourn the loss of Israeli civilians, all whilst also mourning the loss of Palestinian lives, dislike how Israel has approached this and question their motives here given what people in that government have said and done for many years, and recognise that Israel’s approach exhibits as much of the terrorist and unlawful qualities of what Hamas did, all at the same time. None of these things are mutually exclusive.
 
Stack said:
I think this is far too simplistic a line of thinking. Not meaning that as any sort of put down. The side getting heavily overwhelmed have no real practical way to ensure there are no organisations jeopardising the path to peace. Voting Hamas out really isnt an option, it wont happen in the near future. They dont have the means to push back on Hamas, they dont have the arms or backing to push back on Hamas. There is as far as I can tell no current leader to unify them and move them in that direction. All those Hamas members have at some time been rightly or wrongly on the receiving end of Israeli retribution or other.

One of the multiple problems is half of the adult Palestinian population wasnt of voting age when Hamas were elected. Mere children then are now being given the responsibilities of being accountable for what the adults before them did. On top of that they themselves are taught, led, influenced by those adults now. Its a whirlpool of conflicting and heavily influenced ideas. The Palestinian strategy if there is actually one is influenced by both Palestinian and Israeli influences. Some for good, some for evil.
There are so many layers to this is mind bending.

I have no clue as to what any solution could be as i simply dont know enough but what I do know is this current Israeli approach will just create more hatred. They are sadly I believe setting up for another generation to attack them in the evil way Hamas has in 20 years time.
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This is an excellent post.

the government & IDF are counting on the fact that they (the new iteration of a Hamas-equivalent) will not be able to do the same again in 20 years, or ever. How? by "West-Banking" Gaza.

This is how the IDF probably envisions it, and this is also how a large people I speak with - all from varios political stances, as much as it's even possible in Israel as there is no real political left side- seem to think.

The expectation is that someone will rule Gaza (PLO? UN? who the feck knows) and whenever an armed group even begins to reform, the IDF will step inside the strip and cut its head off by, once more, killing and arresting people.

It's never going to stop. Even if/when Benny Ganz will be elected prime minister and Bibi is ousted, this is the line of thinking.

You ask the avergae Joe in Israel who isn't a right-wing nutjob a la Smotrich and Ben Gvir, what their stance regarding a Palestinian state ruled by the PLO is-

it is probable that people are going to say that

a) how can it be done? you can't really connect Gaza and the West Bank geographically [and becase of that, there's no point in dwelling on it)
b) the PLO want to kill us all just like Hamas, they are just more subtle about it. if you give them a state, they will just fire rockets and commit suicide attacks from a much central spot in Israel, closer to many large cities .


Can you imagine that I am 33 years old, have lived in Israel almost my entire life, and have some Israeli Arab friends [my mind says sometimes, nowadays, uncontrollably- are they really friends? can they flip on me? do they hate Jews secretly?]...

Can you imagine that it took this October 7th and everything that followed to happen,
for me to do some research and realize that Gazans have electricity only for a couple of hours a day, and that the water there is not viable for drinking, or however you say that in English?

Shouldn't it have been general knowledge around here, to at least know how your perceived enemy actually lives?

There are friends of mine who also don't know that, and when I mention it, a lot of them will say that it's Hamas's fault anyway.

I'll very very sadly write that even I am afraid of a Palestinian state because I can't really see how it ends up with them not attacking us [rightly so. because of how they are treated? my mind can accept that, but it doesn't bring any sense of security].

This is what reality here does to you. the fear, the mistrust, the dehumanization... it's unreal.
 
Wibble said:
It is just weird that people accept that Hamas used tunnels but seem to think they wouldn't use tunnels in/near hospitals or refugee camps or use hospitals as cover for military operations.

Why would Israel attack these targets if there was no military reason to do so? Surely they have enough bad publicity without intentionally making it worse for zero military advantage?

More generally the polarisation of views about this is exactly why (or one of the whys) the issue has never been resolved in any meaningful way. People seem incapable of accepting that many/most players in all this are morally dubious (to be very generous). Apart from murdering over a thousand innocent civilians the Hamas attack made a political solution even less possible and intentionally so. They want to wipe out the Jews and Israel no matter how impossible that is and no matter the cost in the suffering of the Palestinian people. Israel don't give a shit either and most of the Arab world, barring countries like Iran who want to use the issue to attack Jews/Israel/the US, doesn't care enough to offer sanctuary to them and never have. And of course the US bring their usual one eyed bullying approach to everything.

All a bunch cnuts and as usual civilians pay the price and will continue to do so.
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Again, nobody is saying this? Comforting I guess though to think otherwise. What people have said repeatedly is that Hamas uses tunnels and that the video the IDF released does not prove that its under a tunnel. Excuse me if I don't take the word of an organisation for gospel that can definitely understand Arabic and was releasing a calendar as a terrorist watchlist on their official channels. An organisation that still denies any humanitarian crisis at all.

Its weird to me that you 'all sides' this and, moreover, do so with only a throwaway line about Israel and talking as if they sadly don't have any agency over what they do 'Ah Israel will Israel, what can they or anyone do'? It's also weird to me that your main contributions to the thread have been to apportion blame to Hamas and 'the Arabs' only, with a very passing comment about how all sides are cnuts.

-Hamas definitely uses tunnels.
-They likely use them near important civilian infrastructure but the video released by the IDF does not prove this.
-Even if there are tunnels there, it does not justify the bombing of hospitals and ambulances.
-Hamas are scum and 10/7 was deplorable.
-Israeli actions towards the Palestinians were, are and will be deplorable and the West will continue to actively support.
-There have been multiple rounds of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and this is likely to be another round.
-'The Arabs' have taken in very literally millions of Palestinian refugees. Each wave of refugees has come after a war and ethnic cleansing and has been permanent. They have many more refugees than equivalent European countries. They have also gone to war alongside the Palestinians in the past, only to be roundly beaten repeatedly. They have cut off oil to the West for their support of Israel. The leaders now actively do not represent their populations and their desires in this conflict.
-Why would Israel care about public opinion? They do what they want,with American cover.

It's definitely comforting though to just all sides it and take away agency from Israelis actions.

I've been incredibly critical of Hamas on here but I'm afraid your posts are nowhere near as balanced as you seem to think they are.
 
It's not really complicated, Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza, destroying infrastructure and killing lots of people, to further political goals. Those political goals are not primarily "ending Hamas." This explains why stated Israeli reasons for many (but not all) actions turn out to be false, and explains other actions that make no sense in the context of Hamas (the West Bank).

That is a conclusion me and other people come to based on what we've seen, Israeli words and deeds, etc.

You can disagree with that conclusion, and that's fine. It's not a slam dunk flawless conclusion. Neither is the alternative.
 
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Stack said:
I think this is far too simplistic a line of thinking. Not meaning that as any sort of put down. The side getting heavily overwhelmed have no real practical way to ensure there are no organisations jeopardising the path to peace. Voting Hamas out really isnt an option, it wont happen in the near future. They dont have the means to push back on Hamas, they dont have the arms or backing to push back on Hamas. There is as far as I can tell no current leader to unify them and move them in that direction. All those Hamas members have at some time been rightly or wrongly on the receiving end of Israeli retribution or other.
One of the multiple problems is half of the adult Palestinian population wasnt of voting age when Hamas were elected. Mere children then are now being given the responsibilities of being accountable for what the adults before them did. On top of that they themselves are taught, led, influenced by those adults now. Its a whirlpool of conflicting and heavily influenced ideas. The Palestinian strategy if there is actually one is influenced by both Palestinian and Israeli influences. Some for good, some for evil.
There are so many layers to this is mind bending.

I have no clue as to what any solution could be as i simply dont know enough but what I do know is this current Israeli approach will just create more hatred. They are sadly I believe setting up for another generation to attack them in the evil way Hamas has in 20 years time.
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Excellent post.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
If you can't understand the complexity of the situation, that is your problem. Why should I waste my time with you when you bring basically nothing to the conversation? That is the kind of immaturity I have seen with the likes of Rashida Tlaib, of whom I have seen as a total hysterical idiot since this conflict started. Thank God that Bernie Sanders voiced the whole thing with a much cooler head to remind us that we have 2 sides of (very unpopular) extremists in charge of this conflict.
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If you cant understand that you start your sentence with "I cant understand why dont the arabs take them". Then nobody will take you seriously. Your posts here have been pathetic and pro ethnic cleansing.
 
africanspur said:
Again, nobody is saying this? Comforting I guess though to think otherwise. What people have said repeatedly is that Hamas uses tunnels and that the video the IDF released does not prove that its under a tunnel. Excuse me if I don't take the word of an organisation for gospel that can definitely understand Arabic and was releasing a calendar as a terrorist watchlist on their official channels. An organisation that still denies any humanitarian crisis at all.

Its weird to me that you 'all sides' this and, moreover, do so with only a throwaway line about Israel and talking as if they sadly don't have any agency over what they do 'Ah Israel will Israel, what can they or anyone do'? It's also weird to me that your main contributions to the thread have been to apportion blame to Hamas and 'the Arabs' only, with a very passing comment about how all sides are cnuts.

-Hamas definitely uses tunnels.
-They likely use them near important civilian infrastructure but the video released by the IDF does not prove this.
-Even if there are tunnels there, it does not justify the bombing of hospitals and ambulances.
-Hamas are scum and 10/7 was deplorable.
-Israeli actions towards the Palestinians were, are and will be deplorable and the West will continue to actively support.
-There have been multiple rounds of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and this is likely to be another round.
-'The Arabs' have taken in very literally millions of Palestinian refugees. Each wave of refugees has come after a war and ethnic cleansing and has been permanent. They have many more refugees than equivalent European countries. They have also gone to war alongside the Palestinians in the past, only to be roundly beaten repeatedly. They have cut off oil to the West for their support of Israel. The leaders now actively do not represent their populations and their desires in this conflict.
-Why would Israel care about public opinion? They do what they want,with American cover.

It's definitely comforting though to just all sides it and take away agency from Israelis actions.

I've been incredibly critical of Hamas on here but I'm afraid your posts are nowhere near as balanced as you seem to think they are.
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Nowhere will you find me supportive of Israel. I would of course like to see Hamas disappear (as I despise terrorists of all sorts, partly as I've had close family members murdered by terrorists, even when I agree with their higher level goals) but not at the price in civilian suffering that it is costing. Hamas are hugely to blame for recent events, even though the events don't exist in a vacuum, and of course Hamas knew this because the attack was precisely to get this response (as Israel will always respond to attacks in this way) and torpedo any chance of Saudi normalising relations with Israel, combined with their usual goal of damaging Israel and Jews as much as possible. Hama don't want a negotiated peace. Israel do but only on a basis that won't reach an agreement (which is nearly the same thing), especially now. The situation has gone from fecked to FUBAR.

And nobody is saying bombing hospitals is reasonable, denying why Israel do it though is not reasonable either as this simply perpetuates Hamas propaganda. Object to propoganda and/or call it out, but not just when it agrees with your (royal you, not you personally) confirmation bias. Not that it really matters as none of the main players are reasonable nor will they be able to be so in the foreseeable future. That doesn't give agency to Israel (not that they care enough in the present circumstances) but delusional one sided opinions seem to be doing exactly that for Hamas, even when it is motivated by seeing the suffering of Palestinian civilians.

Egypt and Jordan won't open their borders because they (Jordan in particular) have in the past and both Egypt and Jordan (probably sensibly) don't want to import the various problems that would entail so are "happy" to leave it as an Israeli problem. And I'm not sure why Arab nations going to war with Israel and losing badly is framed as a good thing. In fact that did much of that damage that remains today.

And Israel doesn't care that much but they also wouldn't deliberately seek to ramp criticism up with such a large scale event when they is zero military advantage. That of course doesn't mean various other civilian deaths due to (at best) not giving a shit aren't occurring. What isn't occurring is many people being able to accept that lots of players are responsible for events that lead up to recent events and also responsible in varying ways and degrees for recent events. And that many of the players have and are acting despicably. It is the polarised views that I'm commenting on that make a proper resolution far less likely. Although of course a "sensible" resolution was unlilley before the Hams attack but is now probably impossible for another generation or more. People with pro-Israeli views and people who are pro-Palestinian are frequently so one eyed that they seem to forget that their "side" are despicable cnuts, just their despicable cnuts, and being cnuts in differing ways.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
It's not really complicated, Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza, destroying infrastructure and killing lots of people, to further political goals. Those political goals are not primarily "ending Hamas." This explains why stated Israeli reasons for many (but not all) actions turn out to be false, and explains other actions that make no sense in the context of Hamas (the West Bank).

That is a conclusion me and other people come to based on what we've seen, Israeli words and deeds, etc.

You can disagree with that conclusion, and that's fine. It's not a slam dunk flawless conclusion. Neither is the alternative.
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They're on the PR offensive to try and control the narrative, more international calls for a ceasefire and condemnation is coming into the discourse, see Macron's statement etc, so they now need to show justification for their actions so they are using Twitter to pump out images, statements and footage. Big issue is they lack the humility to understand that their outright mistruths and shoddy reasoning will not be pored over and critiqued, I believe because the IDF etc operate on a bubble where they are never wrong nor never held to account.
 
ExoduS said:
I have finally reviewed the content of all of my favorite conspiracy theorists on the interwebs, and I have to say I disagree with most of them, and I am with Israel on this conflict. Most of them are anti-Jewish for no rational reasons. Palestinians are the one committing atrocities and not allowing this conflict to be resolved. Palestinians are the one supporting and hiding possibly the most brutal terrorist organization that has ever existed.

Not my original quote, some dude on Joe Rogan podcast said it (that is how deep my research goes): If Palestinians lay down their guns, Israelis would go after those responsible for the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. If Israelis lay down their guns, Palestinians would go in and kill as many Israelis as they possibly can.

Innocent civilians will continue to die in this conflict and that is absolutely terrible, but Hamas has to be eradicated.
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Is this post for real?
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
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What's appalling is to see a young woman whose life has been snuffed out for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a symbol, among many, of the insanity that's been going on for decades in this part of the world.

Now before one decides what's what in terms of being buried either inside or outside the cemetery, we should hear first from a well-versed person how Judaism usually deals with these cases. I would personally have let her be buried inside. It seems to me to be the right thing to do and I see no reason against it. However I'm not of jewish confession and my knowledge on this matter is too limited to judge.
 
ExoduS said:
I really need to get educated more about Northern Ireland conflict, The Troubles. Closest I got was in Gladwell's book David and Goliath where he argued British attempt to enforce authority backfired. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that it appears IRA took an "L" in "The Troubles" conflict and in return they got few concessions from the British. The same will have to happen in this conflict - Palestinians will have to take an "L" along with whatever favorable agreements they can get from Israelis. Appears that Palestinians do not want to take an "L" and their strategy is to continue to inflict damage to Israeli civilians to which Israelis respond unevenly. Doesn't bring me any pleasure in saying this - but the side getting overwhelmed should work toward peace and ensure there are no organizations within it jeopardizing the path toward peace. If Palestinian strategy is to protect Hamas so they can murder Israeli civilians, so Israelis just pack up and leave then they will have to live with harsh responses like this.
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Ahh yes, it's the civilians fault because they haven't gotten rid of Hamas themselves, does it make you feel good justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide?
 
That_Bloke said:
What's appalling is to see a young woman whose life has been snuffed out for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a symbol, among many, of the insanity that's been going on for decades in this part of the world.

Now before one decides what's what in terms of being buried either inside or outside the cemetery, we should hear first from a well-versed person how Judaism usually deals with these cases. I would personally have let her be buried inside. It seems to me to be the right thing to do and I see no reason against it. However I'm not of jewish confession and my knowledge on this matter is too limited to judge.
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That doesn't sound very fair on her or her family, regardless of Jewish practices. What's more important, a murdered woman or an imaginary bloke in the sky?
 
Raven said:
That doesn't sound very fair on her or her family, regardless of Jewish practices. What's more important, a murdered woman or an imaginary bloke in the sky?
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I fully agree with you but as I said, I don't know what the rules are. There are a few Israeli posters who could maybe shed some light on the matter.
 
Raven said:
Ahh yes, it's the civilians fault because they haven't gotten rid of Hamas themselves, does it make you feel good justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide?
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The guy @ExoduS referred to in their first post about Joe Rogan's podcast is Timothy Kennedy, a former US special forces sergeant and retired MMA fighter. As you can see, Kennedy has all the right credences to be cited as a reputable source to base your own analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict on and get the appropriate conclusions.

Norman Finkelstein labelled Kennedy as a "flaming imbecile". I've heard that bit on Joe Rogan's podcast and personally think that it couldn't any be more fitting description. Any poster quoting this idiot can't and shouldn't be taken seriously. Unless they were indeed sarcastic, which is hard to tell in this thread.
 
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That_Bloke said:
The guy @ExoduS referred to in their first post about Joe Rogan's podcast is Timothy Kennedy, a former US special forces sergeant and retired MMA fighter. As you can see, Kennedy got all the right credences to be cited as a reputable source to base your own analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict on and get the appropriate conclusions.

Norman Finkelstein labelled Kennedy as a "flaming imbecile". I heard that bit on Joe Rogan's podcast and personally think it couldn't any be more fitting description. Any poster citing this idiot can't and shouldn't be taken seriously. Unless they were indeed sarcastic, which is hard to tell in this thread.
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I follow UFC a lot and can unequivocally say that Tim Kennedy is one of the dumbest idiots walking the earth.
 
That_Bloke said:
What's appalling is to see a young woman whose life has been snuffed out for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a symbol, among many, of the insanity that's been going on for decades in this part of the world.

Now before one decides what's what in terms of being buried either inside or outside the cemetery, we should hear first from a well-versed person how Judaism usually deals with these cases. I would personally have let her be buried inside. It seems to me to be the right thing to do and I see no reason against it. However I'm not of jewish confession and my knowledge on this matter is too limited to judge.
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Because the Bible doesn't refer to a lot of day-to-day stuff, there was a need to expand on it. Thus came about some books, and the most important of them to the actual ruling is the Halakha. it was written hundreds of years ago and current rabbis keep expanding on it but based on it, if that makes sense.
I'd think that Immams in mosques do the same.

Anyway,
According to the Halakha, you don't bury a non-Jew next to Jews. can't remember why exactly.
now, this woman was on her way to becoming Jewish by conversion which is specific for soldiers of the IDF (it's faster and disliked by orthodox Jews, but they have no choice but to accept it and the converted people as Jews).

Seeing as she didn't complete the process, she is considered a non-Jew.
Her body must have been sent, after identification, to Khevra Kadisha, which is the organization that is in charge of burials in Israel.
They go by the Halakha. There are indeed several "civil (secular) cemeteries" in Israel and you can ask to be buried there,
but most people don't do that- whether by lack of thought, knowledge, money (I assume it's more expensive), or other reasons.

so the Khevra Ksddisha buried the murdered young lady in a different part of the cemetery dedicated to non-Jews,
because for them that's the way to go, no exceptions seeing as this is god's will.

After a huge public outcry, I saw an article where some Rabbis who are responsible for this or that on a national level,
saying that there should have been at least a consideration to make an exception, because the Halakha has solutions to everything, essentially.
Some of them said she should have been buried regularly because she was murdered as a Jew.

I wonder how it will be resolved.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Because the Bible doesn't refer to a lot of day-to-day stuff, there was a need to expand on it. Thus came about some books, and the most important of them to the actual ruling is the Halakha. it was written hundreds of years ago and current rabbis keep expanding on it but based on it, if that makes sense.
I'd think that Immams in mosques do the same.

Anyway,
According to the Halakha, you don't bury a non-Jew next to Jews. can't remember why exactly.
now, this woman was on her way to becoming Jewish by conversion which is specific for soldiers of the IDF (it's faster and disliked by orthodox Jews, but they have no choice but to accept it and the converted people as Jews).

Seeing as she didn't complete the process, she is considered a non-Jew.
Her body must have been sent, after identification, to Khevra Kadisha, which is the organization that is in charge of burials in Israel.
They go by the Halakha. There are indeed several "civil (secular) cemeteries" in Israel and you can ask to be buried there,
but most people don't do that- whether by lack of thought, knowledge, money (I assume it's more expensive), or other reasons.

so the Khevra Ksddisha buried the murdered young lady in a different part of the cemetery dedicated to non-Jews,
because for them that's the way to go, no exceptions seeing as this is god's will.

After a huge public outcry, I saw an article where some Rabbis who are responsible for this or that on a national level,
saying that there should have been at least a consideration to make an exception, because the Halakha has solutions to everything, essentially.
Some of them said she should have been buried regularly because she was murdered as a Jew.

I wonder how it will be resolved.
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Thanks a lot for the explanation.

I'm better informed about Islam without being part of it, but as far as I know, you're correct in your assessment. Non-Muslims can't be buried next to Muslims, unless there's no other way. The definition of the jewish word "Halakha" is also very similar to the arabic "Akhlaq" which also defines "a code of conduct and good manners under the precepts of Islam". A walk of life. Or am I wrong in my comparison?

She didn't complete the process because she was murdered, it's not like she jumped out. I know that becoming a Jew is quite an arduous and lengthy process but the intent was already there, and the conversion was underway. Unless you go by a very literal interpretation of the Halakha. A way of thinking that I always found to be dangerous and impratical, no matter which religion it refers to.

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any objection to her burial inside a jewish cemetery.
 
That_Bloke said:
Thanks a lot for the explanation.

I'm better informed about Islam without being part of it, but as far as I know, you're correct in your assessment. Non-Muslims can't be buried next to Muslims, unless there's no other way. The definition of the jewish word "Halakha" is also very similar to the arabic "Akhlaq" which also defines "a code of conduct and good manners under the precepts of Islam". A walk of life. Or am I wrong in my comparison?

She didn't complete the process because she was murdered, it's not like she jumped out. I know that becoming a Jew is quite an arduous and lengthy process but the intent was already there, and the conversion was underway. Unless you go by a very literal interpretation of the Halakha. A way of thinking that I always found to be dangerous and impratical, no matter which religion it refers to.

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any objection to her burial inside a jewish cemetery.
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Could also be linked to the Arabic word halaqa as well (the literal meaning is circle but wider connotation is religious gathering). Halakha has similar intimations (literally means 'the way' with a wider intimation of talmudic teachings).
 
RedTiger said:
Have the IDF found and destroyed the tunnels under Shifa yet?
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They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
 
the_cliff said:
They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
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They've arrested all journalists in the area so it's much easier to spread their lies without anyone challenging them.
 
the_cliff said:
They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
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They need to consult with the guys who staged the moon landings
 
That there are tunnels in that particular hospital doesn't seem to be any kind of mystery. "We all know there are bunkers and tunnels because the Israelis built some of them when they were in control of the al Shifa hospital before 2005," is a quote from a Sky News military analyst.
 
berbatrick said:
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Media coverage in US is turning against Israel in US now. Even NYT comment section, which is good indicator of liberal Hillary/Biden supporting Democrats, is turning against Israel after initially they were all for Israel eradicating Hamas for Oct 7 attack. The generational divide within Democrats over Israel-Palestine issue can cost Biden the election. And ultimately that might be the issue that forces him to reign in Israel in some manner here.
 
crappycraperson said:
Media coverage in US is turning against Israel in US now. Even NYT comment section, which is good indicator of liberal Hillary/Biden supporting Democrats, is turning against Israel after initially they were all for Israel eradicating Hamas for Oct 7 attack. The generational divide within Democrats over Israel-Palestine issue can cost Biden the election. And ultimately that might be the issue that forces him to reign in Israel in some manner here.
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I haven't seen any indication of any significant anti-Israel sentiment in the US. If anything, the fact that the Israel-Hamas war is receiving less coverage each day because of other stories, is suggestive the initial round of negative sentiment has subsided as the story is in the news much less than last month. What this means for the war is less American pressure for the Israelis to moderate their ways in Gaza.
 
Ian Bremmer in an interview date from 11/9 on Palestine and Israel's domestic situation before 10/7, its relationship with the Arab Gulf States, the Israeli response to the massacre, Hamas' strategy, the US support, prospects of peace and the two-state solution.

 
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