UnofficialDevil
Anti Scottish and Preoccupied with Donkeys.
So this is like joining a championship team on international level..
What nonsense is "give Ole the same team?" he spent much more money and had much more time than Ten Hag to deliver and didn't. He also didn't take over a squad with near as many holes as what he left behind, compared to ten hag who had a double digit exodus if I'm not mistaken with a lot of senior talent missing.“we won a cup” - give Ole the teams ETH faced in the carabao cup and he would win that too. One of the easiest runs to a trophy. How many home draws it? The season ticket holders had to get second jobs it was that many
I don’t recall ever finishing bottom of an easy UCL group under Ole. Injuries or not, a team that spends £450m should get out of a group consisting of Galatasaray and Copenhagen.
Ole was shite, I’m not advocating that he was a good manager but ETH is shite too. But for some bizarre reason, he’s getting way more excuses even though he means absolutely feck all to the club in comparison to Ole.
If we lose tomorrow and Wolves and Bournemouth win their games in hand, we are 12th!
Yeah both those arguments are just something that ETH fanatics use to boost their guy but realistically we only won the mighty cup because we did not have to play anyone decent up until final, and the 1 extra point we got over Ole’s best season was largely due to the fact we focused on EL final in the one we got 74 points in.“we won a cup” - give Ole the teams ETH faced in the carabao cup and he would win that too. One of the easiest runs to a trophy. How many home draws it? The season ticket holders had to get second jobs it was that many
Per transfermarkt.com he spent €468m over three seasons to ETH’s €457m over two seasons. I wouldn’t really call it ‘much more’.What nonsense is "give Ole the same team?" he spent much more money and had much more time than Ten Hag to deliver and didn't. He also didn't take over a squad with near as many holes as what he left behind, compared to ten hag who had a double digit exodus if I'm not mistaken with a lot of senior talent missing.
Also pretty much nothing in it, 1.82 vs 1.81 as far as I can see which is basically 1 point across 3 seasons, and the cup is largely thanks to a historically easy draw.He has time now to turn around this season, he has a cup already in the bag, he is also if I'm not mistaken, on a better points per game since becoming manager than Ole?
Was sacked after 3 years of winning nothing, and his best achievement being a 74 point season that both Mourinho and EtH have bettered and won silverware.Ole finished 3rd and 2nd in his two full seasons. Was sacked in November when he was 8th in the league and top of CL group.
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Standards are at an all time low.
What is nonsense in saying give Ole the same teams ETH had to face to win the Carabao cup? Didn't ETH have an extremely fortunate draw? Would ETH beaten Man City in the semi final like Ole had to try to do, twice? This cup is being treated as if its some major trophy that ETH beat the odds to deliver. No, he fecking had to play Charlton and Nottingham Forest on the way to then beat a club who haven't won a trophy in 60 years in the final who had to play their 3rd choice goalkeeper.What nonsense is "give Ole the same team?" he spent much more money and had much more time than Ten Hag to deliver and didn't. He also didn't take over a squad with near as many holes as what he left behind, compared to ten hag who had a double digit exodus if I'm not mistaken with a lot of senior talent missing.
Im not denying that Ten Hag royally fecked up the champions league this year. But he has been also dealt with a shit hand on injuries, he was dealt some poor luck in some games and most importantly, in spite of that, his overall legacy is in a better place than Ole. He has time now to turn around this season, he has a cup already in the bag, he is also if I'm not mistaken, on a better points per game since becoming manager than Ole?
If Ole had ten hags injuries he'd be royally fecked. Ole would have to have Lindelof and Maguire smoked for most the season, Wan Bissaka out, Martial broken down and Matic + say Fred missing the majority of the season to compare the same cards. But in truth he had all these players for a longer period plus big marquee signings of his own and royally fecked up.
In isolation it’d be “meh” I agree, but it came in a first season where he even managed to better Ole’s best ever points tally.What is nonsense in saying give Ole the same teams ETH had to face to win the Carabao cup? Didn't ETH have an extremely fortunate draw? Would ETH beaten Man City in the semi final like Ole had to try to do, twice? This cup is being treated as if its some major trophy that ETH beat the odds to deliver. No, he fecking had to play Charlton and Nottingham Forest on the way to then beat a club who haven't won a trophy in 60 years in the final who had to play their 3rd choice goalkeeper.
When ETH had taken us to 77 points, 2 finals and 1 cup, he did not spend 467m EUR and it's important to note that he inherited a team with far more holes in it than Ole.Per transfermarkt.com he spent €468m over three seasons to ETH’s €457m over two seasons. I wouldn’t really call it ‘much more’.
It's pretty damning that Ten Hag is still better (albeit marginally, if not the same) with this many injuries. It's actually insane because we all know if Ole had 2 key midfielders out, 2 key center backs out, his first choice LB in/out for most the season, he'd be pretty cooked far earlier on. Collapse is a strong term to be honest, if we have hands on hips players giving up and no actual style of play whilst failing to bounce back from losses, being abused on the pitch by relegated sides then sure I think we're at Ole levels of collapse.Also pretty much nothing in it, 1.82 vs 1.81 as far as I can see which is basically 1 point across 3 seasons, and the cup is largely thanks to a historically easy draw. They have basically both performed similarly at United except ETH’s collapse has come sooner than Ole’s who got us two decent seasons vs one good season from ten Hag.
He had to beat an extremely in form Brighton side in the semi's, and a Newcastle side that was Champions League form in the final. Some of Ole's cup exits were against the likes of Wolves and Leicester too, so you can understand my doubt when you claim rather lazily "meh, Ole would have beaten em". What we do know is that Ole was with us for almost 4 seasons and oversaw our longest trophy drought, being knocked out to some teams that we were better than despite having a long time in the job and a lot of windows to supplement what was already a decent squad.What is nonsense in saying give Ole the same teams ETH had to face to win the Carabao cup? Didn't ETH have an extremely fortunate draw?
Does it matter if Ole went out to choke anyway? Ten Hag has beaten City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea before. He has shit away form yes. And he has a lot of injuries this season which can certainly add context to some big losses this year (recall Arsenal away where our defence literally collapsed with injuries before their last minute winner). But he has proven to be able to beat these sides, so I don't think its fair to discredit his cup form when he has a cup in 1/4 of the time taken and Ole doesn't. Ole went on to choke in certain games, and there was a well noted mental fragility that festered because of it. I don't really give a feck if you beat City in a league cup if you're also getting your ass handed to you by Wolves and Leicester.Would ETH beaten Man City in the semi final like Ole had to try to do, twice? This cup is being treated as if its some major trophy that ETH beat the odds to deliver. No, he fecking had to play Charlton and Nottingham Forest on the way to then beat a club who haven't won a trophy in 60 years in the final who had to play their 3rd choice goalkeeper.
That best ever points tally was still good enough for second place, which also had the club as the second top scorers. How many goals we scoring under ETH this season? Reckon we can hit 40?In isolation it’d be “meh” I agree, but it came in a first season where he even managed to better Ole’s best ever points tally.
It’s those two things together that absolutely point to a much better achievement than anything Ole managed, despite being in the job 3 years.
EtH could’ve quit in the Summer and he’d have achieved more in one season than Ole in 3 years.
He never took us to 77 points and probably never will.When ETH had taken us to 77 points, 2 finals and 1 cup, he did not spend 467m EUR and it's important to note that he inherited a team with far more holes in it than Ole.
Well our points average this season with injuries is much lower and arguably it’s a fluke that we are even at 1.55 as our performances have not merited that. It’s not like we are handling it very well.It's pretty damning that Ten Hag is still better (albeit marginally, if not the same) with this many injuries. It's actually insane because we all know if Ole had 2 key midfielders out, 2 key center backs out, his first choice LB in/out for most the season, he'd be pretty cooked far earlier on.
Also it's not an easy draw - look back at some of the teams Ole took exits too. It's all well and good beating your chest and saying "Ole would have beaten em" but he had exits himself to the likes of Leicester and Wolves in domestic cups.
My bad, 75 points in year 1, which is a better total than what Ole managed in 3.5 years of attempts.He never took us to 77 points and probably never will.
Newcastle were in UCL form? Is 1 win in 8 before and after the final, UCL form? Leicester also went on to win the FA Cup that year. Also Brighton was in the Fa Cup, the semi final of the Carabao was Forest.He had to beat an extremely in form Brighton side in the semi's, and a Newcastle side that was Champions League form in the final. Some of Ole's cup exits were against the likes of Wolves and Leicester too, so you can understand my doubt when you claim rather lazily "meh, Ole would have beaten em". What we do know is that Ole was with us for almost 4 seasons and oversaw our longest trophy drought, being knocked out to some teams that we were better than despite having a long time in the job and a lot of windows to supplement what was already a decent squad.
Does it matter if Ole went out to choke anyway? Ten Hag has beaten City, Arsenal, Liverpool before. He has shit away form yes. And he has a lot of injuries this season which can certainly add context to some big losses this year (recall Arsenal away where our defence literally collapsed with injuries before their last minute winner). But he has proven to be able to beat these sides, so I don't think its fair to discredit his cup form when he has a cup in 1/4 of the time taken and Ole doesn't. Ole went on to choke in certain games, and there was a well noted mental fragility that festered because of it. I don't really give a feck if you beat City in a league cup if you're also getting your ass handed to you by Wolves and Leicester.
We had much much better players with Ole. Pogba would be our best midfielder. Cavani our best striker. Mason our best winger. Martial could actually run.This was pure Ole ball - imagine this now, people would be creaming themselves
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Well, a whole 1 point more than Ole managed in his best season in which we also folded for the last few games as we were preparing for EL final and dropped pretty much all the points.My bad, 75 points in year 1, which is a better total than what Ole managed in 3.5 years of attempts.
And your view is he probably never will, we can wait and see but my point is looking back it's quite clear in most metrics that Ole doesn't hold a candle. How can a manager chronically failing for 3.5 years actually have a case. It's an ex player bias which is pretty terrible.
Our League Cup run was Gerrard’s Villa (with a weakened side), Burnley, Charlton and Forest. Then Newcastle who as you have pointed out were in abysmal form around that time. It was an incredibly easy run.Newcastle were in UCL form? Is 1 win in 8 before and after the final, UCL form? Leicester also went on to win the FA Cup that year. Also Brighton was in the Fa Cup, the semi final of the Carabao was Forest.
Come on, you know over two legs, ETH wasn't beating City. What is his record against City anyway, 10 goals conceded in 3 games
It’s absolutely bizarre how so many stick up for Ole and make such crazy claims as “standards have dropped now” when ETH took over an absolute shitshow yet bettered Ole in every metric within one season.My bad, 75 points in year 1, which is a better total than what Ole managed in 3.5 years of attempts.
And your view is he probably never will, we can wait and see but my point is looking back it's quite clear in most metrics that Ole doesn't hold a candle. How can a manager chronically failing for 3.5 years actually have a case. It's an ex player bias which is pretty terrible.
They finished 4th and qualified for the Champions League. In a cup the recent form of 8-9 games isn't really material and it is a whole "form goes out the window" mentality. Broadly speaking, that Newcastle side was quality and over the season showed a lot of growth, more growth and more of a ceiling than what Wolves and Leicester showed vs Ole for example. The same goes for Brighton.Newcastle were in UCL form? Is 1 win in 8 before and after the final, UCL form? Leicester also went on to win the FA Cup that year
Come on, you know over two legs, ETH wasn't beating City. What is his record against City anyway, 10 goals conceded in 3 games
Well Ole had a feck tonne more money and 1.5 years to prepare for that ”best” season.Well, a whole 1 point more than Ole managed in his best season in which we also folded for the last few games as we were preparing for EL final and dropped pretty much all the points.
He beat Ole's record having not managed a single PL game prior to taking the United role, whilst also reaching 2 finals and winning a cup.Well, a whole 1 point more than Ole managed in his best season in which we also folded for the last few games as we were preparing for EL final and dropped pretty much all the points.
They have actually performed pretty much the same, yet you have one as a massive success and the other as a chronic failure which is funny.
Brighton was the FA Cup. Forest was the semi final opponent. You said they were in UCL form, they were not, they were on a bad run and had to play Karius in goal. They're a good side overall but it isn't a major achievement to beat them considering the form they were in. ETH gets kudos, I'm not writing it off but to see it trotted out as some big achievement when it was a very simple run is silly. I forgot, its 12 goals conceded in 4 games, forgot the FA Cup final he lost to City.They finished 4th and qualified for the Champions League. In a cup the recent form of 8-9 games isn't really material and it is a whole "form goes out the window" mentality. Broadly speaking, that Newcastle side was quality and over the season showed a lot of growth, more growth and more of a ceiling than what Wolves and Leicester showed vs Ole for example. The same goes for Brighton.
And regarding the over two legs bit, I don't actually get what nonsense that is. It's a cup and cup games tend to be different. Yes he fell on his arse vs City in the league and no one is really running from that, but as I said, Ole has choked in the league to lesser teams than what Ten Hag had to overcome, so your point collapses on the "meh Ole woulda won" argument.
My apologies - they were not in UCL form, they were a side that proved to be CL quality. And they were CL quality. They were at least, much better than the Leicester and Wolves sides that Ole choked to, so when you come out and say "ole would have beaten them", that's basically bullshit. You don't actually know what Ole would have done, but given he had a team of chronic chokers in cups I don't think he is guaranteed to do the same.Brighton was the FA Cup. Forest was the semi final opponent. You said they were in UCL form, they were not, they were on a bad run and had to play Karius in goal. They're a good side overall but it isn't a major achievement to beat them considering the form they were in. ETH gets kudos, I'm not writing it off but to see it trotted out as some big achievement when it was a very simple run is silly. I forgot, its 12 goals conceded in 4 games, forgot the FA Cup final he lost to City.
The points tally stuff isn't that big of a deal. AVB points wise, outperformed Harry Redknapp at Spurs, was he the better manager there?Well Ole had a feck tonne more money and 1.5 years to prepare for that ”best” season.
EtH had just walked into an absolute shitshow and a mess left by Ole/Ragnick with fans calling for every player to be sold.
Yes, it is actually mental.It’s absolutely bizarre how so many stick up for Ole and make such crazy claims as “standards have dropped now” when ETH took over an absolute shitshow yet bettered Ole in every metric within one season.
The next few games will be interesting, I think ETH looks likely to lose his job regardless and he absolutely is failing this season, but 2 home wins and an away win to
Wolves in his next three looks unlikely, but if managed it would put him on course to match Ole’s points total for his other full season.
That alone should tell people how standards dropped under Ole.
I mean, if AWB propelled them back into the champions league spots, won a cup, got to another final and also got more points in that season then yeah it's tough to argue that season isn't better than any of what Redknapp had.The points tally stuff isn't that big of a deal. AVB points wise, outperformed Harry Redknapp at Spurs, was he the better manager there?
Well he came here as one of the most promising managers around and had managed a successful CL team before as opposed to Ole who came here with basically zero top level experience, and they’ve both basically produced pretty much the same outcome, which was not good enough under Ole and is not good enough now.He beat Ole's record having not managed a single PL game prior to taking the United role, whilst also reaching 2 finals and winning a cup.
I don't have Ten Hag as a "massive success". That's actually a silly conclusion. I just said Ten Hag comfortably outperforms Ole if you take the context of injuries, time taken to get to a better place with half the money spent and 1/4 of the time, etc etc. You don't have to be a massive success to be better than Ole, which is more of a damning indictment of what a failure Ole was.
And you may argue "oh but our place now sucks", and I'll point out the fact that Ten Hag's injuries make Ole's side look they're on doping drugs. We'll just have to see how Ten Hag fares from here on now that he finally has key players back.
What is irrefutable though is Ole oversaw our biggest trophy drought in PL history and couldn't even beat Ten Hag's first season point tally. So wherever Ten Hag falls from that point, his peak was better than Ole, like it or lump it.
Leicester went on to win the FA Cup that season though and missed out on the top 4 by 1 point in the end. They were a pretty decent outfit and not too far off Newcastle of last season.My apologies - they were not in UCL form, they were a side that proved to be CL quality. And they were CL quality. They were at least, much better than the Leicester and Wolves sides that Ole choked to, so when you come out and say "ole would have beaten them", that's basically bullshit. You don't actually know what Ole would have done, but given he had a team of chronic chokers in cups I don't think he is guaranteed to do the same.
It doesn't matter what he came here as - in the debate manager B outperformed manager A so the revisionism that manager A football was better or the time under him was better or that he performed better as a coach for us is just absolute nonsense.Well he came here as one of the most promising managers around and had managed a successful CL team before as opposed to Ole who came here with basically zero top level experience, and they’ve both basically produced pretty much the same outcome, which was not good enough under Ole and is not good enough now. Both will ultimately go down as failures who have set us back years.
And if we didn't beat Newcastle in the final, they'd have gone on to win the League Cup. What's your point? They may have been a good side, but they weren't as good as Newcastle. And even if we agree they're on par, Ten Hag did his job against them and Ole didn't. It's really that simple, so to argue that Ole would have beaten a Newcastle side that went on to qualify for the CL in the league cup final is a bit of a weak point to discredit Ten Hag.Leicester went on to win the FA Cup that season though and missed out on the top 4 by 1 point in the end. They were a pretty decent outfit and not too far off Newcastle of last season.
I don’t think it was better, they were basically the same. 20-21 and 22-23 were very similar seasons in terms of performance and I was reasonably happy with both. Along with Mourinho’s second season they were the best we have had since Fergie. Still pretty shite for a club this big but expectations are low after a decade of this.It doesn't matter what he came here as - in the debate manager B outperformed manager A so the revisionism that manager A football was better or the time under him was better or that he performed better as a coach for us is just absolute nonsense.
But the argument seems silly. "ETH gained more points" but finished third. Ole finished second. I don't think I have ever looked back on a points tally, I've looked back on league position though. I don't know how many points we had with LVG, Mourinho, Ole, ETH until it is brought up. But I remember 5th place, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd. I also remember scoring goals under Ole. Will we get to 40 this season or is that just a pipe dreamI mean, if AWB propelled them back into the champions league spots, won a cup, got to another final and also got more points in that season then yeah it's tough to argue that season isn't better than any of what Redknapp had.
22-23 has a massive Asterix on it given the injuries that Ten Hag has been dealt. How do you think Ole fares with the same injuries?I don’t think it was better, they were basically the same. 20-21 and 22-23 were very similar seasons in terms of performance and I was reasonably happy with both. Along with Mourinho’s second season they were the best we have had since Fergie. Still pretty shite for a club this big but expectations are low after a decade of this.
In an isolated point yes, but when you consider the fact that he did it in less time, needed more surgery on the squad immediately, dealt with some structural ownership uncertainty in that year and also won a cup then it's quite clear who is better.But the argument seems silly. "ETH gained more points" but finished third. Ole finished second. I don't think I have ever looked back on a points tally, I've looked back on league position though. I don't know how many points we had with LVG, Mourinho, Ole, ETH until it is brought up. But I remember 5th place, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd. I also remember scoring goals under Ole. Will we get to 40 this season or is that just a pipe dream
As shite as it is now. What I will argue is, Ole's experience is Molde and Cardiff with no UCL games. ETH has a better resume, managed better clubs and players and he's still not convincing me that he is better than Ole. Overall ETH is a better manager than Ole, that is clear. But I am not convinced ETH is better as an United manager than Ole was.It doesn't matter what he came here as - in the debate manager B outperformed manager A so the revisionism that manager A football was better or the time under him was better or that he performed better as a coach for us is just absolute nonsense.
And if we didn't beat Newcastle in the final, they'd have gone on to win the League Cup. What's your point? They may have been a good side, but they weren't as good as Newcastle. And even if we agree they're on par, Ten Hag did his job against them and Ole didn't. It's really that simple, so to argue that Ole would have beaten a Newcastle side that went on to qualify for the CL in the league cup final is a bit of a weak point to discredit Ten Hag.
A question to both of you - how would Ole's form have been if he had the same injuries as Ten Hag? Whilst Ole had some injuries with Cavani and Pogba, he still had a lot more fit players (and a fairly bloated squad on experience) compared to Ten Hag.
Okay, but how do you think Ole would fare with the same injuries dealt?As shite as it is now. What I will argue is, Ole's experience is Molde and Cardiff with no UCL games. ETH has a better resume, managed better clubs and players and he's still not convincing me that he is better than Ole. Overall ETH is a better manager than Ole, that is clear. But I am not convinced ETH is better as an United manager than Ole was.
I reckon we would beat Galatasaray at home. Everyone beats Galatasaray at home in Europe. Their biggest away win in recent years before United was against St. JohnstoneOkay, but how do you think Ole would fare with the same injuries dealt?
I thought our team was fairly healthy last year but you seem to have a very different perception of massive injury crises than me.22-23 has a massive Asterix on it given the injuries that Ten Hag has been dealt. How do you think Ole fares with the same injuries?
Not that I want to defend Ole, but isn't our current team with the all the injuries more or less exactly like Ole's team with just a few exceptions? Rashford, Bruno, McTominay, Martial, Maguire, Lindelöf, AWB and Dalot have for the most part been available. Shaw has been available for about half the games too. The rest are Ten Hag signings.Okay, but how do you think Ole would fare with the same injuries dealt?
So in isolated games you think he'd do better. Regarding goals I'm unsure you can hang your hat on that. Remember 2-3 key center backs out, the left back broadly out (and the back up LB) and 2 first choice midfielders out. I'd be shocked if Ole managed the same form to be honest. But that's all hypotheticals, there's no value in wasting time on that.I reckon we would beat Galatasaray at home. Everyone beats Galatasaray at home in Europe. Their biggest away win in recent years before United was against St. Johnstone
I think Ole has the team scoring more than 22 goals. Injuries aren't an excuse to be outscored by Luton who would love to have the attacking players we have available.
My apologies, I was referring to 23-24 and misread your post. I see you were comparing Ten Hag's debut year to Ole's peak year. Which in itself is a flawed comparison for obvious reasons.I thought our team was fairly healthy last year but you seem to have a very different perception of massive injury crises than me.
Martial is a crock (thanks to Ole overplaying him with injections), Maguire has had an extended period out, Ole also bought Varane who is generally a crock, Lindelof has been out for extended periods of time this season too (just needed surgery in fact), Shaw being available in half the games is pretty massive considering he was at Ole's diposal at his peak. AWB was actually out for the first 4-6 weeks of the season too. Matic was injured a fair bit for Ole but he at least was able to call on his experience in some key games. I think missing some big experienced players in Matic/Mata is important too. Ten Hag has tried to address that with Evans this year (which I think is quite clever objectively speaking).Not that I want to defend Ole, but isn't our current team with the all the injuries more or less exactly like Ole's team with just a few exceptions? Rashford, Bruno, McTominay, Martial, Maguire, Lindelöf, AWB and Dalot have for the most part been available. Shaw has been available for about half the games too. The rest are Ten Hag signings.
Hopefully we won't have to debate about ETH after tomorrow's game.So in isolated games you think he'd do better. Regarding goals I'm unsure you can hang your hat on that. Remember 2-3 key center backs out, the left back broadly out (and the back up LB) and 2 first choice midfielders out. I'd be shocked if Ole managed the same form to be honest. But that's all hypotheticals, there's no value in wasting time on that.
We are on the same side though, we want the manager to turn it around regardless of our current sentiment toward him. If Ten Hag cant turn around our form with key players back then I have no leg to stand on when defending him this season, and that would be fair fecks.
My apologies, I was referring to 23-24 and misread your post. I see you were comparing Ten Hag's debut year to Ole's peak year. Which in itself is a flawed comparison for obvious reasons.
I'm not trying to play down Ten Hag's injury crisis. In fact, this is the main reason for why I'm still not comfortable with the idea of sacking him.Martial is a crock (thanks to Ole overplaying him with injections), Maguire has had an extended period out, Ole also bought Varane who is generally a crock, Lindelof has been out for extended periods of time this season too (just needed surgery in fact), Shaw being available in half the games is pretty massive considering he was at Ole's diposal at his peak. AWB was actually out for the first 4-6 weeks of the season too. Matic was injured a fair bit for Ole but he at least was able to call on his experience in some key games. I think missing some big experienced players in Matic/Mata is important too. Ten Hag has tried to address that with Evans this year (which I think is quite clever objectively speaking).
Anyawy only Bruno, Rashford and McTominay haven't been out for an extended time this season.