So this is like joining a championship team on international level..
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | Managerial Watch | Reports: Being considered for Canada job
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
It really saddens me that whenever I see his name, my immediate reaction is slight irritation because of his managerial stint,
and only then do I remind myself what a huge Man Utd legend the guy is, and how he 'should' be remembered.
I hope Scholes, Keane or Becks never manage United.
as for Ole, why not go to Sweden?
International football is a nice environment to work in as a coach, I shall think.
and he speaks the language as it's very similar to Norwegian.
Sounds like a sensible thing to do.
and only then do I remind myself what a huge Man Utd legend the guy is, and how he 'should' be remembered.
I hope Scholes, Keane or Becks never manage United.
as for Ole, why not go to Sweden?
International football is a nice environment to work in as a coach, I shall think.
and he speaks the language as it's very similar to Norwegian.
Sounds like a sensible thing to do.
What nonsense is "give Ole the same team?" he spent much more money and had much more time than Ten Hag to deliver and didn't. He also didn't take over a squad with near as many holes as what he left behind, compared to ten hag who had a double digit exodus if I'm not mistaken with a lot of senior talent missing.
Im not denying that Ten Hag royally fecked up the champions league this year. But he has been also dealt with a shit hand on injuries, he was dealt some poor luck in some games and most importantly, in spite of that, his overall legacy is in a better place than Ole. He has time now to turn around this season, he has a cup already in the bag, he is also if I'm not mistaken, on a better points per game since becoming manager than Ole?
If Ole had ten hags injuries he'd be royally fecked. Ole would have to have Lindelof and Maguire smoked for most the season, Wan Bissaka out, Martial broken down and Matic + say Fred missing the majority of the season to compare the same cards. But in truth he had all these players for a longer period plus big marquee signings of his own and royally fecked up.
Yeah both those arguments are just something that ETH fanatics use to boost their guy but realistically we only won the mighty cup because we did not have to play anyone decent up until final, and the 1 extra point we got over Ole’s best season was largely due to the fact we focused on EL final in the one we got 74 points in.
It’s very hard to argue that last season was really much better than the two full seasons Ole produced and this season is probably even lower than Ole’s last season was.
Per transfermarkt.com he spent €468m over three seasons to ETH’s €457m over two seasons. I wouldn’t really call it ‘much more’.
Also pretty much nothing in it, 1.82 vs 1.81 as far as I can see which is basically 1 point across 3 seasons, and the cup is largely thanks to a historically easy draw.
They have basically both performed similarly at United except ETH’s collapse has come sooner than Ole’s who got us two decent seasons vs one good season from ten Hag.
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Was sacked after 3 years of winning nothing, and his best achievement being a 74 point season that both Mourinho and EtH have bettered and won silverware.
Ole finished his time here with 1.75 pts per game in the Premier League, EtH is also failing and yet sits currently on 1.82 pts per game. Yet you claim one is an all time low of standards whilst defending the other, go figure.
I’d say you’re right that standards are at an all time low, set during Ole’s waste of time tenure.
What is nonsense in saying give Ole the same teams ETH had to face to win the Carabao cup? Didn't ETH have an extremely fortunate draw? Would ETH beaten Man City in the semi final like Ole had to try to do, twice? This cup is being treated as if its some major trophy that ETH beat the odds to deliver. No, he fecking had to play Charlton and Nottingham Forest on the way to then beat a club who haven't won a trophy in 60 years in the final who had to play their 3rd choice goalkeeper.
In isolation it’d be “meh” I agree, but it came in a first season where he even managed to better Ole’s best ever points tally.
It’s those two things together that absolutely point to a much better achievement than anything Ole managed, despite being in the job 3 years.
EtH could’ve quit in the Summer and he’d have achieved more in one season than Ole in 3 years.
When ETH had taken us to 77 points, 2 finals and 1 cup, he did not spend 467m EUR and it's important to note that he inherited a team with far more holes in it than Ole.
It's pretty damning that Ten Hag is still better (albeit marginally, if not the same) with this many injuries. It's actually insane because we all know if Ole had 2 key midfielders out, 2 key center backs out, his first choice LB in/out for most the season, he'd be pretty cooked far earlier on. Collapse is a strong term to be honest, if we have hands on hips players giving up and no actual style of play whilst failing to bounce back from losses, being abused on the pitch by relegated sides then sure I think we're at Ole levels of collapse.
Also re the cups - it's not an easy draw - look back at some of the teams Ole took exits too. It's all well and good beating your chest and saying "Ole would have beaten em" but he had exits himself to the likes of Leicester and Wolves in domestic cups.
He had to beat an extremely in form Brighton side in the semi's, and a Newcastle side that was Champions League form in the final. Some of Ole's cup exits were against the likes of Wolves and Leicester too, so you can understand my doubt when you claim rather lazily "meh, Ole would have beaten em". What we do know is that Ole was with us for almost 4 seasons and oversaw our longest trophy drought, being knocked out to some teams that we were better than despite having a long time in the job and a lot of windows to supplement what was already a decent squad.
Does it matter if Ole went out to choke anyway? Ten Hag has beaten City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea before. He has shit away form yes. And he has a lot of injuries this season which can certainly add context to some big losses this year (recall Arsenal away where our defence literally collapsed with injuries before their last minute winner). But he has proven to be able to beat these sides, so I don't think its fair to discredit his cup form when he has a cup in 1/4 of the time taken and Ole doesn't. Ole went on to choke in certain games, and there was a well noted mental fragility that festered because of it. I don't really give a feck if you beat City in a league cup if you're also getting your ass handed to you by Wolves and Leicester.
That best ever points tally was still good enough for second place, which also had the club as the second top scorers. How many goals we scoring under ETH this season? Reckon we can hit 40?
He never took us to 77 points and probably never will.
Well our points average this season with injuries is much lower and arguably it’s a fluke that we are even at 1.55 as our performances have not merited that. It’s not like we are handling it very well.
Leicester were a quality team when we lost to them in the FA Cup, and Wolves were not that bad of a team in 2018-19 either, they finished 7th (with some big wins at Molineux) so not exactly sure why you are trying to make them sound like fodder. Both were absolute miles above anyone that we played in League Cup last year up until final where we met the first decent team, plus they were both away games while all our League Cup draws last year were at home. Ole produced some good cup runs actually though he could never go all the way.
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My bad, 75 points in year 1, which is a better total than what Ole managed in 3.5 years of attempts.
And your view is he probably never will, we can wait and see but my point is looking back it's quite clear in most metrics that Ole doesn't hold a candle. How can a manager chronically failing for 3.5 years actually have a case. It's an ex player bias which is pretty terrible.
Newcastle were in UCL form? Is 1 win in 8 before and after the final, UCL form? Leicester also went on to win the FA Cup that year. Also Brighton was in the Fa Cup, the semi final of the Carabao was Forest.
Come on, you know over two legs, ETH wasn't beating City. What is his record against City anyway, 10 goals conceded in 3 games
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We had much much better players with Ole. Pogba would be our best midfielder. Cavani our best striker. Mason our best winger. Martial could actually run.
Well, a whole 1 point more than Ole managed in his best season in which we also folded for the last few games as we were preparing for EL final and dropped pretty much all the points.
They have actually performed pretty much the same, yet you have one as a massive success and the other as a chronic failure which is funny.
Our League Cup run was Gerrard’s Villa (with a weakened side), Burnley, Charlton and Forest. Then Newcastle who as you have pointed out were in abysmal form around that time. It was an incredibly easy run.
It’s absolutely bizarre how so many stick up for Ole and make such crazy claims as “standards have dropped now” when ETH took over an absolute shitshow yet bettered Ole in every metric within one season.
The next few games will be interesting, I think ETH looks likely to lose his job regardless and he absolutely is failing this season, but 2 home wins and an away win to
Wolves in his next three looks unlikely, but if managed it would put him on course to match Ole’s points total for his other full season.
That alone should tell people how standards dropped under Ole.
They finished 4th and qualified for the Champions League. In a cup the recent form of 8-9 games isn't really material and it is a whole "form goes out the window" mentality. Broadly speaking, that Newcastle side was quality and over the season showed a lot of growth, more growth and more of a ceiling than what Wolves and Leicester showed vs Ole for example. The same goes for Brighton.
And regarding the over two legs bit, I don't actually get what nonsense that is. It's a cup and cup games tend to be different. Yes he fell on his arse vs City in the league and no one is really running from that, but as I said, Ole has choked in the league to lesser teams than what Ten Hag had to overcome, so your point collapses on the "meh Ole woulda won" argument.
Well Ole had a feck tonne more money and 1.5 years to prepare for that ”best” season.
EtH had just walked into an absolute shitshow and a mess left by Ole/Ragnick with fans calling for every player to be sold.
He beat Ole's record having not managed a single PL game prior to taking the United role, whilst also reaching 2 finals and winning a cup.
I don't have Ten Hag as a "massive success". That's actually a silly conclusion. I just said Ten Hag comfortably outperforms Ole if you take the context of injuries, time taken to get to a better place with half the money spent and 1/4 of the time, etc etc. You don't have to be a massive success to be better than Ole, which is more of a damning indictment of what a failure Ole was.
And you may argue "oh but our place now sucks", and I'll point out the fact that Ten Hag's injuries make Ole's side look they're on doping drugs. We'll just have to see how Ten Hag fares from here on now that he finally has key players back.
What is irrefutable though is Ole oversaw our biggest trophy drought in PL history and couldn't even beat Ten Hag's first season point tally. So wherever Ten Hag falls from that point, his peak was better than Ole, like it or lump it.
Brighton was the FA Cup. Forest was the semi final opponent. You said they were in UCL form, they were not, they were on a bad run and had to play Karius in goal. They're a good side overall but it isn't a major achievement to beat them considering the form they were in. ETH gets kudos, I'm not writing it off but to see it trotted out as some big achievement when it was a very simple run is silly. I forgot, its 12 goals conceded in 4 games, forgot the FA Cup final he lost to City.
My apologies - they were not in UCL form, they were a side that proved to be CL quality. And they were CL quality. They were at least, much better than the Leicester and Wolves sides that Ole choked to, so when you come out and say "ole would have beaten them", that's basically bullshit. You don't actually know what Ole would have done, but given he had a team of chronic chokers in cups I don't think he is guaranteed to do the same.
The points tally stuff isn't that big of a deal. AVB points wise, outperformed Harry Redknapp at Spurs, was he the better manager there?
Yes, it is actually mental.
If Ten Hag welcomes back his key center backs and key midfielders (where Ole never really lost a combination of both for prolonged period) and STILL fails to improve then sure he is also a failure. But the revisionism right now is just mental.
I mean, if AWB propelled them back into the champions league spots, won a cup, got to another final and also got more points in that season then yeah it's tough to argue that season isn't better than any of what Redknapp had.
Well he came here as one of the most promising managers around and had managed a successful CL team before as opposed to Ole who came here with basically zero top level experience, and they’ve both basically produced pretty much the same outcome, which was not good enough under Ole and is not good enough now.
Leicester went on to win the FA Cup that season though and missed out on the top 4 by 1 point in the end. They were a pretty decent outfit and not too far off Newcastle of last season.
It doesn't matter what he came here as - in the debate manager B outperformed manager A so the revisionism that manager A football was better or the time under him was better or that he performed better as a coach for us is just absolute nonsense.
And if we didn't beat Newcastle in the final, they'd have gone on to win the League Cup. What's your point? They may have been a good side, but they weren't as good as Newcastle. And even if we agree they're on par, Ten Hag did his job against them and Ole didn't. It's really that simple, so to argue that Ole would have beaten a Newcastle side that went on to qualify for the CL in the league cup final is a bit of a weak point to discredit Ten Hag.
A question to both of you - how would Ole's form have been if he had the same injuries as Ten Hag? Whilst Ole had some injuries with Cavani and Pogba, he still had a lot more fit players (and a fairly bloated squad on experience) compared to Ten Hag.
I don’t think it was better, they were basically the same. 20-21 and 22-23 were very similar seasons in terms of performance and I was reasonably happy with both. Along with Mourinho’s second season they were the best we have had since Fergie. Still pretty shite for a club this big but expectations are low after a decade of this.
But the argument seems silly. "ETH gained more points" but finished third. Ole finished second. I don't think I have ever looked back on a points tally, I've looked back on league position though. I don't know how many points we had with LVG, Mourinho, Ole, ETH until it is brought up. But I remember 5th place, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd. I also remember scoring goals under Ole. Will we get to 40 this season or is that just a pipe dream
22-23 has a massive Asterix on it given the injuries that Ten Hag has been dealt. How do you think Ole fares with the same injuries?
In an isolated point yes, but when you consider the fact that he did it in less time, needed more surgery on the squad immediately, dealt with some structural ownership uncertainty in that year and also won a cup then it's quite clear who is better.
As shite as it is now. What I will argue is, Ole's experience is Molde and Cardiff with no UCL games. ETH has a better resume, managed better clubs and players and he's still not convincing me that he is better than Ole. Overall ETH is a better manager than Ole, that is clear. But I am not convinced ETH is better as an United manager than Ole was.
Okay, but how do you think Ole would fare with the same injuries dealt?
I reckon we would beat Galatasaray at home. Everyone beats Galatasaray at home in Europe. Their biggest away win in recent years before United was against St. Johnstone
I think Ole has the team scoring more than 22 goals. Injuries aren't an excuse to be outscored by Luton who would love to have the attacking players we have available.
I thought our team was fairly healthy last year but you seem to have a very different perception of massive injury crises than me.
Not that I want to defend Ole, but isn't our current team with the all the injuries more or less exactly like Ole's team with just a few exceptions? Rashford, Bruno, McTominay, Martial, Maguire, Lindelöf, AWB and Dalot have for the most part been available. Shaw has been available for about half the games too. The rest are Ten Hag signings.
So in isolated games you think he'd do better. Regarding goals I'm unsure you can hang your hat on that. Remember 2-3 key center backs out, the left back broadly out (and the back up LB) and 2 first choice midfielders out. I'd be shocked if Ole managed the same form to be honest. But that's all hypotheticals, there's no value in wasting time on that.I reckon we would beat Galatasaray at home. Everyone beats Galatasaray at home in Europe. Their biggest away win in recent years before United was against St. Johnstone
I think Ole has the team scoring more than 22 goals. Injuries aren't an excuse to be outscored by Luton who would love to have the attacking players we have available.
We are on the same side though, we want the manager to turn it around regardless of our current sentiment toward him. If Ten Hag cant turn around our form with key players back then I have no leg to stand on when defending him this season, and that would be fair fecks.
My apologies, I was referring to 23-24 and misread your post. I see you were comparing Ten Hag's debut year to Ole's peak year. Which in itself is a flawed comparison for obvious reasons.
Martial is a crock (thanks to Ole overplaying him with injections), Maguire has had an extended period out, Ole also bought Varane who is generally a crock, Lindelof has been out for extended periods of time this season too (just needed surgery in fact), Shaw being available in half the games is pretty massive considering he was at Ole's diposal at his peak. AWB was actually out for the first 4-6 weeks of the season too. Matic was injured a fair bit for Ole but he at least was able to call on his experience in some key games. I think missing some big experienced players in Matic/Mata is important too. Ten Hag has tried to address that with Evans this year (which I think is quite clever objectively speaking).
Anyawy only Bruno, Rashford and McTominay haven't been out for an extended time this season.
Hopefully we won't have to debate about ETH after tomorrow's game.
I'm not trying to play down Ten Hag's injury crisis. In fact, this is the main reason for why I'm still not comfortable with the idea of sacking him.
But when I look at most of the starting XI's in the PL this season, we're typically looking at between 5 to 8 players who were starting XI regulars for Ole + 3 to 5 players who Ten Hag signed himself.
We've gotten to the point where starting players who were guaranteed starters for Ole is considered a tragedy for Ten Hag. I just find that a little funny that's all. In any case, these discussions are pointless. No manager has been good enough after Fergie and unfortunately things are looking bleak for Ten Hag too. But I will reserve my judgement for the day he actually gets sacked.