and how about the millions of Jewish Arabs that were expelled from Yemen, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and Syria? Israel took them in. Have they ever been allowed back to their homes in those Arab countries? Where is their right of return?
Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
and how about the millions of Jewish Arabs that were expelled from Yemen, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and Syria? Israel took them in. Have they ever been allowed back to their homes in those Arab countries? Where is their right of return?
Isn't this thread about the Israeli-Palestine conflict? Some very odd whataboutism and diversionary blame going on here.
The mods hated that in the Rusisa thread so I'm sure they'll be along all angered very shortly......
The mods hated that in the Rusisa thread so I'm sure they'll be along all angered very shortly......
So instead of answering questions you persist with your whataboutisms.
One of my biggest regrets is seeing the Arab Jewry leave their native lands, but they at least had a nation they were pulled into. The choices the Palestinians have is miserable subjugation or indefinite refugee status. Its hardly the same. And for all your talk about Arab treatment of Jews, they were still immensely better off historically in Arab/Ottoman territories than they were in Europe, who still wanted nothing to do with them after the horrors of the holocaust.
Do not feed the troll.
Meanwhile Israel have more or less just confirmed their intended full occupation of Gaza and the West Bank going forward.
I eat Hasbara trolls for breakfast my guy.
I do not doubt that, but this one is not interested in having a conversation.
One Rabbi Shmuley is enough for this world.
What do you think will happen if Israel behaves the same way in Rafah like it did in the rest of the Strip?
Beyond the appalling number of civilian victims, surpassing by far the Nakba's in 1948, the thoroughly documented and numerous war crimes, mass starvation and accusations of genocide, all of which seemingly insufficient to trigger the West's proverbial outrage at any unlawful behavior that isn't theirs, there's not enough emphasis put on destruction of the Gazan infrastructures. That's the most concerning point.
All administrative buildings and universities have been deliberately blown up. There's no working sewage system. There's no hospital that still functions bar one, the European Hospital. 75% of the housing units are badly damaged or destroyed. Nothing else has been spared, not schools, not religious buildings, not historic monuments, not even cemetaries. The North is already unhabitable, and the psychopaths on the other side of the wall are planning a "buffer zone" which will further reduce an already tiny open-air prison. And it will go through without anyone doing or saying anything.
The Israeli government wasn't joking when it talked about reducing Gaza to "a city of tents". They are doing their utmost to make a possible life after their "act of self-defense" so unbearable that the inhabitants will be left with little choice but to leave. They've hammered it, time and time again. Some of the most prominent elected officials and members of the Netanyahu cabinet would've rightly been qualified as Nazis if it were any other country. You can add the daily TikTok videos from the IDF soldiers.
Since you brought Ukraine to the table, just imagine for second the outrage and consequences, if it was Russian officials saying that and acting on it. Or their soldiers posting it on the net. We'd never hear the end of it.
If the planned offensive on Rafah indeed goes through, there will be only two choices: either the West grows a pair and stops the psychopaths before it's too late or act the ethnic cleansing and force Egypt to open its border with the absolute certainty that every Palestinian crossing the bridge will never be allowed to go back.
You seem to to think that Arab countries constitute some kind of monolithic block when it really isn't the case. We're not talking about an empire here, each of those countries acts depending on its on geographic situation, and economic as well as strategic interests. The second point is that there's a massive discrepancy between the
There's nothing Arab countries can do. It ended in 1973 and the fall of the Soviet Union buried that idea for good. Yeah, they can call back their ambassador and boycott Israeli products, but they'd be just pissing in the sand whilst shooting themselves in the foot. There's one international rule that never changed throughout the millenia, the one who has the biggest stick wins. Arabs don't have it for centuries. Too weak militarily, too economically dependent of the US and the West since the fall of the Soviet Union. Some of them have every interest to see Israel win because a "victory" of the Hamas would give bad ideas to the islamist movements within their own countries. Egypt and Saudi Arabia in particular which had massive problems with the Muslim Brotherhood that gave birth to Hamas.
There are currently three main Arab players that matter in the region: SA, Qatar and Egypt. Jordan, which took in most of the Palestinian refugees in 1948, had more than its fair share and is highly depending on the US. Irak, Syria and Lebanon have been destroyed. Egypt is on the US' and Israel's payrolls since 1973, there's nothing to be expected and they don't want more people they're not able to integrate, and among whom some could be sympathetic to the Brotherhood which Sisi worked so hard to overthrow. Qatar for all its wealth, is a very small country and very happy to pose as the "Switzerland of the Middle-East". The other Arab countries in North Africa are simply too weak and too far away to have any kind of pull. Algeria's UNSC proposition is nothing more than symbolic, given the utterly predictable US veto and that's as far as they can go.
SA under MBS has other plans. Although a long-time ally of the US in the Middle-East, they've understood that the over-reliance on oil is a death warrant in the long-term and are keen on diversifying their income, based on the Dubai model. A normalization with Israel would've had massive economic benefits alongside the acquisition of much needed technologie, including a civil nuclear one, hence the Abraham Accords. I also predict a gradual and massive change of the absolutely appalling state of women's rights in their kingdom, for PR reasons. They're also ideologically Iran's archenemies and will do all they can to limit the latter's influence in the region, even if it means allying themselves with Israel and ditch the Palestinian cause, which was before 10/7 effectively dead and buried. On the other side, Israel went so far that they now legitimately can't endorse the Abraham Accords without having an insurrection on their hands.
At the end of the day, even if their goverments led by selfish assholes who can't do anything or most likely don't care about Palestine's fate, the Arab populations are absolutely seething and massively concerned by what's happening in Gaza right now. There's always been among the Arab populations an undeniable solidarity with the Palestinian cause that will never stop until the latter get their legitimate right to self-determination and own country. The amount of resentment, if not hate, the West's daily generating by its double standards, willful blindness and unwillingness to stop what clearly has the marks of a genocide all over it, is really difficult to fathom for a western observer. I guarantee you that the next US administrations and the Western governments, will be dealing with the consequences of the last four months for decades. I dare say that it extends to the whole Global South which major actors are duly taking notes.
It is not a bipolar or unipolar world anymore, people must understand this. The "West vs the Rest" road taken by the US and its allies is a very dangerous one and I don't know if the latter are prepared for what's coming their way.
Last edited:
The bolded part: that's not how your posts came across (to me anyway).
As for the rest of your post, you seem to acknowledge the argument that some don't care and will follow their own agenda which the ambassador from the Politico article kinda suggested in the first place so it's not like his premise was completely wrong.
"You seem to to think that Arab countries constitute some kind of monolithic block when it really isn't the case. "
No, just no. I don't think that. Let's get that straight.
As for the rest of your post...eh? Lots of stuff that most, including myself, already agree with but I don't quite see the relevance of it towards the discussion between me and JPRouve. I mean, would you like for me to engage with the rest of your post or...?
Last edited:
This is the only thing stopping a regional war, always has been.
Alright, I'll make it short then. Those were your questions, if I'm right.
1. How much do they care about Palestinians?
2. If they care, what options do they have for showing support?
1. The current Arab governments? They don't give a shit and even if some of them did, they've got no economic or military means to weigh in.
2. None. They can symbolically protest, even push the case to the UNSC and that's about it. Taking in more permanent refugees is out of the question, for the reasons I've mentioned above. They can act as local fixers though.
I don't understand why you're making a mountain out of a molehill. The center of decisions lies in the West, anything else is a red herring.
Last edited:
The premise is nonsensical. First because it acts as if Arab countries haven't taken refugees. And it's nonsensical because there is no symbolic or rhetorical actions that translate to a visceral concern, that's why they are defined as symbolic or rhetorical.
It also acts as if Arab countries are a monolith, if the point was that some are willing to make bigger sacrifices than others than there would be no issue but it's not what was done because the point was to villify Arab countries as aw hole and pretend that they actually have a meaningful say in that situation outside of supporting deportation. Also people should question the idea of deportation whether it concerns palestinians or israelis.
Why do you accuse me of making a mountain out of a molehill? You yourself say some governments don't care. That's what me and JPRouve were discussing about. That's literally it, nothing more or less.
I only engaged with JPRouve because based on his posts, I concluded he disagreed with the mere observation that some governments aren't really invested in the Palestinian cause. An observation that I've heard Palestinians themselves make.
And his arguments weren't convincing enough for me, that's why I engaged him.
You continuously defend the slaughter of innocents simply because their limp bodies aren't wrapped in the correct flag. It's genuinely pitiful to watch the gradual deterioration in a persons morality without them even being able to notice. Here you are calling for Israel to be aided and abetted in committing ethnic cleansing. A crime against humanity.
Israel is currently destroying the open air prison they keep 2.5 million in. The other 3 million are herded between ever shrinking Bantustans as increasingly intolerable conditions are imposed upon them and you have the brass neck to try and smuggle responsibility for these outrages out of Israeli hands.
Meanwhile, laughably and genuinely without logic, you would confer responsibility for a small group of people being mean to a man holding a sign onto the entire 100k present and make it proof positive of an all encompassing antisemitism.
How easily you blame others, how impossible to fault Israelis. Surely you must see the moral and intellectual poverty of your own position. Are you really so far gone?
Last edited:
It wasn't a mere observation and it wasn't about some countries. It was an attempt to demonize Arab countries by claiming that they don't want to take refugees even though they have millions of them and it's also a way to deflect blame away from the nations that actually hold any power in that matter.
If the point was state that some countries care and others there wouldn't be any issues but it's not what the quote was about. Also the resettlement of palestinians isn't a sign of caring for palestinians not when it is exactly what Israel wants.
This is a well written response and acutely hammers home the trivialisation by many of the plight of Palestinians.
A trivialisation that were it reversed would be considered anti-semitic.
You are right on the part of refugees. There are millions of them already living in several countries. But that wasn't the crux of the discussion for me at all.
Based on your posts, it seemed to me you did take issue with the argument that some care and some don't, framing it somewhat as "they care but can't do anything". Can they not do anything or are they not interested in doing anything?
Because the neighbouring Arab countries aren't the problem here and neither should they be. They don't have to take responsibility for what's essentially been a decades long colonial war with the clear goal of getting rid of an indigenous population, one way or another.
I've butted in because despite their massive flaws, the Arab countries have been unfairly scapegoated in the last months to distract people from the fact that Israel is currently using 10/7 to completely get rid of the Gazans. The idea of an ethnic cleansing for humanitarian reasons is dangerously growing stronger, and is more and more viewed as morally acceptable. By many who aren't as informed as you are, or unwilling to look past their own prejudices.
No matter their stance on the fate of Palestine, about which they can't do anything anyways, the Arab countries in the Middle-East refuse to take any more Palestinian refugees. They know the score. Israel will never let them go back and they don't want to be the ones who enabled it.
Last edited:
That's you reframing things in a way that wasn't said or even insinuated. My issue is with two things first the obvious deflection of blame and secondly the absolute claim that Arab countries as a monolith do not care. I don't think that the framing of this article around the concept of "Arab countries" is innocent, it wasn't a nuanced point and it was one that somehow purposely act as no arab country is willing to take refugees which is a lie and that fallacy is somehow telling according to the quote.
Other than that the question that I asked you about what they can do beyond rhetoric, I don't really see what they can do that goes beyond PR actions and frankly I really hoped that there something more than symbolism that I totally missed.
Israel are fighting a war in Gaza that Hamas started. If 7th October doesn't happen then this atrocious war doesn't happen.
Why can't you see that Hamas are the enemy of Israel and the Palestinians?
You expect Israel to sit by and just allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire missiles at Israel most days and kidnap innocent hostages?
Your condemnation should be of Hamas. Not of Israel who want to eradicate them.
The one thing they might be able to collectively do is bring about an oil shock. Egypt could maybe close the Suez but the Houthis are already trying that. this twould cause considerable pain to themselves though. I think many countries are paralysed by the fear of a widening conflict.
The Suez idea is a pretty good one especially if it's done peacefully. The oil shock is intriguing in the sense that it would be something that Saudi Arabia would do for their own benefit and have done in the past with their production cuts but they are all about business and I don't think that they do something like that without planning it with the other members of the OPEC, I could be totally wrong though. And yes the risk of a wider conflict is real and we already know who is going to lose.
That's never going to happen.
We're not in 1973 anymore and the OPEC Arab heavyweights are either destroyed (Irak and Libya), shadows of their former selves (Iran and Algeria), or firmly in the US camp (SA and Kuwait).
Back then Egypt had the backing of the Soviet Union, it's now Uncle Sam's obedient lapdog.
None of them have common interests.
You don't appear to even know who you are talking to or the position they hold. I know yours so I have the advantage. October 7th was a disgrace, Hamas bears responsibility. They are terrorists and their actions were unconscionable. The perpetrators deserve everything they get. They exist in a vast prison of 2.5 million people in conditions of squalor that Israel have imposed for decades. That too is an unconscionable disgrace, has gone on for far longer, created much more squalor, misery and terror and killed far more people. Israel's dealings with Palestinians has long been to treat them as subhuman. You want it one way, you are all too willing to condemn one but will not cast even a single, solitary thought towards the naked depravity of the other.
That is the chasm between us.
africanspur sums up the whole discussion about arab countries' involvement nicely here.
A couple of good points in the politico interview but I don't think it was that interesting and has obvious undertones of racism.
A couple of good points in the politico interview but I don't think it was that interesting and has obvious undertones of racism.
I wonder what happened here, I don't remember.
Ofcourse they aren't responsible for Israel's actions.
But that's not quite the crux of the discussion for me. It's about to which extent they're still invested in the Palestinian cause and by buying Israeli defence products or normalizing the relationship, it gives the impression that they're giving Palestinians the cold shoulder. The status quo seemed tolerable to them and in that status quo the Palestinians were still suffering.
This is not even really about moral lecturing. It's about observing to what extent the Palestinian cause is still important to the regional governments.
And how Palestinian leaders interpret this is an interesting follow-up question.
Last edited:
At least 350,000 chronic patients, 60,000 pregnant women, and about 700,000 children in Gaza are exposed to serious health complications as a result of malnutrition, dehydration, and lack of medical facilities, according to the enclave’s health ministry.
I think its important to draw a distinction between the regimes that govern the Arab states (almost all of which are autocracies), and the ordinary civilians they rule over. The former definitely have no interest in the wellbeing nor plight of the Palestinians, and simply use their cause as a convenient rod to distract their civilians from their nation's own shortcomings, but stopping short of doing anything tangible beyond lip service and a few pretty speeches at the UN. Jordan, Egypt and pretty much every Gulf Arab state except for perhaps Qatar are US stooges and will fall in line, whereas the likes of Turkey continue being a trade partner for Israel despite that crook Erdogan giving it the big un in his Trump like speeches, acting like he's the self-proclaimed Caliph of the Muslim world, harping wax lyrical on how Gaza needs to be free.
Though if you gauge the opinions of the average man/woman in the streets of Cairo, Istanbul or Jeddah, you'll hear a very different perspective and one that is very much outraged at the situation and are very much in solidarity with the Palestinians.
So this whole notion of the Arab states not caring is a bit of a fallacy. For starters because 6 million Palestinians were taken in by some of those states, and also because they're a bunch of autocracies who don't represent the real sentiment of their people, and would prefer not to risk upsetting their sponsors and those that consolidate them (the US), lest they end up facing a similar fate to those that did 'break rank' (The Saddams, Gaddafis, or what have you).
Yeah, good post.
I completely agree. It's astonishing to me that people can read descriptions of what is happening right now from medical charities like Doctors Without Borders and not even bat an eyelid. If roles were reversed there's no doubt as to the lengths to which nations would stretch to halt the carnage.
I do agree with you that HAMAS is an enemy of Israel and Palestine.
Now, I have a few questions for you.
1. So, are you 100% confident that this operation's sole purpose is only to eliminate Hamas? There is no ulterior motive?
2. Are you confident that Israel has no underlying motive to drive civilians out and occupy the territory permanently?
3. If Yes to above, what is giving you this confidence considering the way in which Israel has been continuing to push settlements in West Bank?
4. How morally do you justify the expansion of settlements in West Bank?
5. Are you convinced that the only one way to eliminate HAMAS is by flattening the entire region, killing 5% of the population and making the area unhabitable for any current residents?
6. If in a few months or year from now, Israel announces an official plan to build settlements in Gaza , how will that make you feel?
7. And last question - how many innocent palestinian lives are worth the life of 1 innocent jew? 1? 5? 100? Infinite? What's your line of thinking on this?
I would appreciate your honest, genuine response on these.
Last edited:
Worth a read.
The reality is that the leadership of Hamas and the current Government in Israel are seeking mutual destruction. That's why no other government is willing to send its own people to die in order to try to separate warring factions.
The people of Palestine and the people of Israel have to rid themselves of their current leaders for there to be any hope for an end to the present situation, let alone moving towards a peaceful solution, can be attained.
Wow, you beyond imagination. Are you for real?
There tens of differences between the two cases, any human being with 2 braincells know that.
But to put the obvious one, because they already took 6 million refugees that Israel deny them the right to return home for 75 years
How about adressing the 6m refugees before you make a new wave, I can not believe I need to explain this.