Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

Kyonn said:
Everytime I see this thread bumped I'm reminded of a quote I heard of the Charlie Rose show 20 years ago: "The Israelis will always win, and the Palestinians will always be there to make sure they don't enjoy it"

Maybe the solution is to let them fight it out once and for all and the rest of the world take any refugees that want to leave. This nearly century old conflict needs to stop.
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What a disgusting take.
 
Kyonn said:
Definitely not "cheerleadering". Not taking either side. I'm just old enough to have seen these two fight this out for way to long. I gave up on a Palestinian state back in the late 90s. There is zero good guys in this conflict.
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If you gave up on a Palestinian state then you are siding with Israel.
 
Kyonn said:
That singular woman isn't a side. There two sides, the Israelis and the Palestinians. And while what the Israelis are doing is horrific let's stop pretending the Palestinians are blameless. The Oct attacks were Israel's Pearl Harbor. At least so far, they haven't dropped two atomic bombs
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They constitute the vast majority both of the living and the slain and it's perfectly possible to be on their side.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
They constitute the vast majority both of the living and the slain and It's perfectly possible to be on their side.
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Fine, if you take that POV I still say the best course of action is to lobby your government to take them in refugees.
 
Kyonn said:
Fine, if you take that POV I still say the best course of action is to lobby your government to take them in refugees.
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The best course of action is for Israel to stop killing them in their thousands.
 
Kyonn said:
I'm not. Where did I say or imply I was?
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Here?

Kyonn said:
Definitely not "cheerleadering". Not taking either side. I'm just old enough to have seen these two fight this out for way to long. I gave up on a Palestinian state back in the late 90s. There is zero good guys in this conflict.
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Not meaning to sandbag you in anyway, but this is unfortunately a 'conflict' where the whole 'I'm not taking a side' approach defaults to an acceptance of the status quo, which historically has been the occupation, subjugation and oppression of the native Palestinian population, and more recently an ongoing genocide.

This isn't some symmetrical 'fight' that has been going on for decades. Its always been a regional superpower backed by a global superpower oppressing and gradually withering away a mostly helpless and increasingly desperate civilian population, who in their desperation often turn to hit and run tactics and occasional acts of terror.

For me this tragedy isn't a particularly complicated one. You either support the Palestinian right to a nation which is theirs by birth and generational ancestry, or you accept the Israeli drive to pillage, occupy and drive out what remains of them. This isn't a conventional clash of heads between two equally sparring adversaries over trivial border disputes.
 
Comparing Pearl Harbor to what happened in October is one of the most baffling things I've read here, and we have had our share of nonsensical takes in here.
 
Kaos said:
Here?



Not meaning to sandbag you in anyway, but this is unfortunately a 'conflict' where the whole 'I'm not taking a side' approach defaults to an acceptance of the status quo, which historically has been the occupation, subjugation and oppression of the native Palestinian population, and more recently an ongoing genocide.

This isn't some symmetrical 'fight' that has been going on for decades. Its always been a regional superpower backed by a global superpower oppressing and gradually withering away a mostly helpless and increasingly desperate civilian population, who in their desperation often turn to hit and run tactics and occasional acts of terror.
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I gave up on the idea of a two state solution not because I took Israel's side but because I realized by the late 90s that there was no two state solution that both side would agree to. I take no side in this.
 
Also, even if that's not your intention let them fight it out once and for all means you support genocide.

That is a position that shouldn't be acceptable here.
 
Kyonn said:
I gave up on the idea of a two state solution not because I took Israel's side but because I realized by the late 90s that there was no two state solution that both side would agree to. I take no side in this.
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But again that would mean an endorsement of the status quo which benefits Israel. In fact Israel doesn't need overt support, all it needs is apathy and impunity so it can see its colonial aspirations to completion without ramifications. Neither the Apartheid South African regime nor the ANC could agree on a solution, does that mean we should have just let the Praetorian government continue their apartheid policy without insisting on international pressure to do the right thing?

The only way this conflict ends is if Israel ends the occupation or ethnically cleanses or kills all the Palestinians. That's the choice presented to us. The question is which do you find more palatable?
 
Idxomer said:
Also, even if that's not your intention let them fight it out once and for all means you support genocide.

That is a position that shouldn't be acceptable here.
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Exactly. It’s tacit genocide support, coming either from malice or a toddler level understanding of the situation.
 
Kaos said:
But again that would mean an endorsement of the status quo which benefits Israel. In fact Israel doesn't need overt support, all it needs is apathy and impunity so it can see its colonial aspirations to completion without ramifications. Neither the Apartheid South African regime nor the ANC could agree on a solution, does that mean we should have just let the Praetorian government continue their apartheid policy without insisting on international pressure to do the right thing?
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I'm not endorsing anything. I'm simply saying I in no way want to be a party to this conflict.
 
Idxomer said:
Comparing Pearl Harbor to what happened in October is one of the most baffling things I've read here, and we have had our share of nonsensical takes in here.
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It’s mental gymnastics. It’s always mental gymnastics with these types who claim they’re objective or take no side but don’t have the balls to just admit they hate the Palestinian cause.
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s mental gymnastics. It’s always mental gymnastics with these types who claim they’re objective or take no side but don’t have the balls to just admit they hate the Palestinian cause.
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Yes, comparing one sneak attack that killed thousands to another sneak attack that killed thousands is mental gymnastics.
 
Kyonn said:
I'm not endorsing anything. I'm simply saying I in no way want to be a party to this conflict.
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I take it you were old enough to remember apartheid in South Africa. Was your stance then also the same? Would you have felt the same apathy if you were alive in Europe during the 1930s when the Nazis started their systemic persecution of European Jews?
 
Kyonn said:
I gave up on the idea of a two state solution not because I took Israel's side but because I realized by the late 90s that there was no two state solution that both side would agree to. I take no side in this.
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That is taking a side. Not only because it is what one of the side wants but also because it is the current status quo.

And I realize that you somehow didn't spot the fact that you took a side but you did and the sad part is that you didn't have to, as you suggested it doesn't affect your life, so nothing should compell you to give up for one side, you could just stick with what is right.
 
JPRouve said:
That is taking a side. Not only because it is what one of the side wants but also because it is the current status quo.

And I realize that you somehow didn't spot the fact that you took a side but you did and the sad part is that you didn't have to, as you suggested it doesn't affect your life, so nothing should compell you to give up for one side, you could just stick with what is right.
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Acoording to that logic it's impossible to be neutral in any conflict. Sorry I disagree. I support neither side.
 
Kyonn said:
Acoording to that logic it's impossible to be neutral in any conflict. Sorry I disagree. I support neither side.
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No it is perfectly possible to remain neutral in a conflict. It's just impossible to do so in this one.

It's quite straightforward, by not taking a side or refusing to hold a stance, you're doing precisely what the Israelis want, therefore inadvertently supporting a status quo which solely benefits them. All the Israelis need is apathy, not your explicit support.
 
Kyonn said:
But that's not a option that either of can take
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There's a difference between being unwilling and being incapable. You seem to be saying that the people between Hamas and Israel must either cede their land or cede their lives - ethnic cleansing or genocide. October 7th was utterly disgusting but pales in comparison to either proposition.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
There's a difference between being unwilling and being incapable. You seem to be saying that the people between Hamas and Israel must either cede their land or cede their lives - ethnic cleansing or genocide. October 7th was utterly disgusting but pales in comparison to either proposition.
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What I'm saying is Israel and the Palestinians need to settle this themselves. Nothing can be forced from the outside. I would much prefer they would settle things peacefully but it's been obvious for decades that neither side is ready to do that.
 
Kaos said:
No it is perfectly possible to remain neutral in a conflict. It's just impossible to do so in this one.

It's quite straightforward, by not taking a side or refusing to hold a stance, you're doing precisely what the Israelis want, therefore inadvertently supporting a status quo which solely benefits them. All the Israelis need is apathy, not your explicit support.
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Why is this conflict different?
 
Badunk said:
From the BBC:

An Israeli military source says Israeli soldiers opened fire as some in the crowd moved towards them in a way that was "endangering the troops"
Israeli government spokesperson Avi Hyman has described what happened as a "tragedy" and said initial indications were that the deaths were caused by delivery trucks "ploughing into crowds of people" waiting for aid to be distributed
Meanwhile, an IDF statement said residents surrounded aid trucks prior to the incident and "looted supplies", and dozens were killed as a result of "pushing, trampling and being run over by the trucks"

All they ever do is murder, then lie about it, get caught out lying and then shrug their shoulders. Absolutely despicable cnuts of the highest order.
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The BBC need to take a biiig step back and feck their own faces. Disgusting organisation.
 
Kyonn said:
Acoording to that logic it's impossible to be neutral in any conflict. Sorry I disagree. I support neither side.
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You can't be neutral when you specifically give up on the rights of one side. In this particular case you would have to give up on the legitimacy of Israel. Otherwise you are neither neutral nor impartial.

The other option for neutrality is to defend the idea of a two state solution, to defend the rights of both side whether it is realistic or not. And it's easy for us to have that neutral position since we aren't affected on a day to day basis by the difficulty of said position.
 
Kyonn said:
What I'm saying is Israel and the Palestinians need to settle this themselves. Nothing can be forced from the outside. I would much prefer they would settle things peacefully but it's been obvious for decades that neither side is ready to do that.
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This entire conflict was forced from the outside.
 
JPRouve said:
You can't be neutral when you specifically give up on the rights of one side. In this particular case you would have to give up on the legitimacy of Israel. Otherwise you are neither neutral nor impartial.

The other option for neutrality is to defend the idea of a two state solution, to defend the rights of both side whether it is realistic or not. And it's easy for us to have that neutral position since we aren't affected on a day to day basis by the difficulty of said position.
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What right did I give? How am I capable of giving up another's rights?
 
Kyonn said:
Why is this conflict different?
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Because you have an assymetrical dynamic involving a powerful oppressor that relies on international apathy to carry out it's colonial aspirations, and a helpless, disenfranchised, defenceless native population who's only chance of survival is international pressure to curb the oppressor. You cannot hold a neutral stance when apathy clearly benefits the aggressor.

Like I've said before this is not a conventional 'conflict'.
 
Kyonn said:
What I'm saying is Israel and the Palestinians need to settle this themselves. Nothing can be forced from the outside. I would much prefer they would settle things peacefully but it's been obvious for decades that neither side is ready to do that.
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Have you heard of foreign policy? Did you know the US provides $3 billion to Israel annually in military aid? Are you familiar with the concept of leverage?
 
Kaos said:
Because you have an assymetrical dynamic involving a powerful oppressor that relies on international apathy to carry out it's colonial aspirations, and a helpless, disenfranchised, defenceless native population who's only chance of survival is international pressure to curb the oppressor. You cannot hold a neutral stance when apathy clearly benefits the aggressor.

Like I've said before this is not a conventional 'conflict'.
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Do you how many conflicts in the world are just as asymmetrical? China/Tibet, China/Uyghurs, US/Afghan, Russia/Ukraine... etc. Should take sides in all of them?
 
Kyonn said:
Yes it was, but that doesn't mean a solution can be forced from the outside.
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On the contrary it can only be solved from the outside.

What incentive does Israel have to stop occupying and ethnically cleansing Palestinians if it currently faces no ramifications or sanctions for doing so?

Likewise what incentive was there for the South African Praetorian government to end it's policy of apartheid if there was no international pressure?
 
Kyonn said:
Definitely not "cheerleadering". Not taking either side. I'm just old enough to have seen these two fight this out for way to long. I gave up on a Palestinian state back in the late 90s. There is zero good guys in this conflict.
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Kyonn said:
What right did I give? How am I capable of giving up another's rights?
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Be honest, are you trolling and wasting everyone time or you are serious and don't understand the topic? Your statement means that you gave up on palestinians right of self determination.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Have you heard of foreign policy? Did you know the US provides $3 billion to Israel annually in military aid? Are you familiar with the concept of leverage?
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Yep, Clinton used said leverage to broker a deal back in the 90s. Look how that turned out. Even if the US threatened to cut aid I still don't believe the Israel's would stop.
 
Kyonn said:
Yes it was, but that doesn't mean a solution can be forced from the outside.
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Of course it can, not only because the International community could recognize the existence of a Palestinian state and borders. They also could sanction Israel for the crimes committed against palestinians and observed by the UN for decades, they could avoid to finance and equip IDF.
 
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