A strange audio given that it doesn't really benefit the Russian side to publish something so obvious - that Ukraine is getting weapons from NATO countries that could destroy Russian targets.
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
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I guess the real story here is German generals using an unsecured line, according to Der Spiegel.
Ahh ok. Makes sense. The Generals will no doubt have to deal with the blowback of talking about sensitive topics on an unsecure line.
Weirdly enough looks like it's a genuine intercept? Not something that I expected when I saw that it was Simonyan who published it first.
I think the German Defense Ministry has said they believe it's real.
Not sure this is going down well with Chinese lawmakers when it is basically an admission of total failure by the Kremlin.
Russia Wants Its Old Aircraft Carrier Back from China
Russia Wants Its Old Aircraft Carrier Back from China
Do you ever actually read the 'articles' you post? A single "Russian lawmaker" from an irrelevant party making some random comment about a ship (nowhere is he even quoted as saying Russia wants it back) to God-only-knows-who is not "the Kremlin". Piss-poor media literacy yet again, but hey, it allowed the "Russian military is on its knees" laughing emojis to be broken out again.Not sure this is going down well with Chinese lawmakers when it is basically an admission of total failure by the Kremlin.
Russia Wants Its Old Aircraft Carrier Back from China
And how many of these missiles have Ukraine got?
Ukraine hasn't received Taurus from Germany. So 0.
None.
Germany refused to give them (until now) to Ukraine because it would be a direct escalation of the conflict to Scholz's eyes.
It's still weird, at least to me, that the Russian published this. The intercepted telco between 4 high ranking air force officers doesn't contain any dramatic news. Germany is discussing the delivery off the Taurus cruise missile system for months now.
So why did Russia publish it anyway? To humiliate Scholz? Would be pretty stupid as he is key person who blocks the delivery off Taurus so far. Now the whole world knows there aren't German soldier needed to program. The leak will only put more pressure on Scholz to eventually deliver Taurus to the Ukraine.
Worse Germany is now warned and aware that Russia is listening and will take counter measures.
I read a few articles speculating the leak actually doesn't come from Russia but from an allied country who gave to the Russian bloggers.
While the is no proof for it, it would make much more sense to me as I see no benefit for Russia to leak the intercept.
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"There is no strategy,” said a third European diplomat. “Things are just happening. Later on, it’s easy to say there was a strategy, this was all part of a plan. But that has never been the case.” A fourth diplomat concurred. “There are slogans — ‘As long as it takes,’ ‘Russia cannot win,’ this kind of thing. But what does any of this really mean? They are things that people say. What matters is what they do.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-war-russia-why-west-is-losing/
Yes, it was a stupid move by the Russians to publish it and shows the how weak insecure late stage Putin is, where he feels compelled to put out a phone call for a short term propaganda win, while in the process losing his ability to continue monitoring German comms because the Germans will now tighten up how the communicate. The missiles will probably eventually get to Ukraine anyway, so all things said, a terrible move by Putin.
I‘m not sure about the missiles. Scholz seems determined to hold them back. To a degree where I’m seriously starting to wonder what the actual reasons might be. I don’t trust the man in the slightest.
What would his logic of holding them back be ? That he's concerned the Ukrainians will use them to strike within Russia itself (as opposed to Crimea) ?
Something like this. He claims it might make us an active participant in the war, never explaining the huge difference between these damn missiles and everything else we have sent them.
His party, the SPD, has a Russia issue in general (they were responsible for Nordstream and of course are the party of Schröder). And the left wing within the party sees itself as pacifist which to them seems to mean standing idly by while Ukraine gets annihilated.
This doesn't seem to be any different to the US refusing to supply certain types of weaponry
The fear in the West is that if they supply weapons with the capability, to say attack Moscow, there will be a big escalation if Ukraine actually used them for that purpose, if I was Ukrainian with the capability of bombing the Kremlin I'd likely be pulling the trigger
I don't know anything about these specific missiles but that is possibly the reasoning
I think having the weapons makes sense from the perspective of hitting Russian targets in and around Crimea and Donbass. The bridge the generals discussed would of course be priority number 1 since its Putin's pride and joy and would be a proper punch in the nose to his totalitarian ambitions if it gets taken down.
Sure, I don't know what the capability of these missiles are, if they could also blow up the bridges in Moscow I can see why giving that capability might be problematic is my real point,
The most weird thing about the leak is Putin actually playing into the hands of the politicians who demand the delivery of the Taurus system to Ukraine.
The recording clearly proofs Scholz's reasoning wrong. There are no German soldiers needed to program the missiles.
I don't understand Scholz's extreme caution to never do anything which Putin could consider as an active participation in the war, because Putin and Medvedev both stated already several time that Russia is in war with the West.
In Scholz' mind, what makes Taurus more escalatory than F-16's? Or Patriots? Or HIMARS? Or Abrams/Leopard/Challenger tanks? ATACMS?
I don't think there is anything to understand there, really. To me it really feels like a complete lie. But what he's hiding, I have no idea.
But what I'm hearing from people involved with the SPD on a local level, there really is quite some pressure from the party's left wing trying to stop support for Ukraine, because they think that is what pacifism is.
I might be mistaken but from what I heard the issue is their range. They have the ability to hit Moscow from Ukrainian held territory
I think the only one comparable is the HIMARS with ATACMS. All the other ones don't have the capabilities to strike deep in Russia so they are more considered defensive. Specially Patriots.
Tanks are not use to attack deep in russia, so the F-16 with the air defenses.
Also Taurus has almost double range than ATACMS
Also, Scholz is a coward
Europe committed 1 million artillery rounds until March 2024. So far they delivered not even 50% of it.
North Korea alone sent 3,5 million rounds to Russia.
Europe's efforts to support the Ukraine are half hearted at best. Seems many Western governments still haven't gasped the consequences of the Ukraine losing this war.
North Korea alone sent 3,5 million rounds to Russia.
Europe's efforts to support the Ukraine are half hearted at best. Seems many Western governments still haven't gasped the consequences of the Ukraine losing this war.
1. How many "pacifists" are being funded by Putin?
2. Do the German "pacifists" demand from Putin to get out of Ukraine, including Crimea?
Ukraine already has that capability with the Storm Shadow/Scalp EG missiles donated by UK and France, they have about the same range as the Taurus and a similar warhead.
They hold that opinion for ages, long before Putin came into power. They advocate peace talks and because they are stupid idiot they don't care about the consequences as long as it is peace.
In the end this is the result of the demilitarization of the German society after WW2. "Never again" became (rightfully) a key principle, but for those people it means "never again should Germany be involved in any war at all".
I was thinking the range might be the problem but they are fairly short range, they couldn't hit Moscow from the Ukraine according to Wikipedia (not the best source)
What does "for ages" mean? Sure, it can be before Putin, but Putin is just a continuation of KGB. Wasn't Putin in Germany before the collapse of the Soviet Union? And I am sure you know that the Soviets were supporting (paying) a lot of Western European political parties...
Since the early 1950s.
Read the following, it is interesting. It is one year old, but I don't think that much has changed since then.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/ukraine-crisis-germany-influencers/
A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT
Pro-Putin operatives in Germany work to turn Berlin against Ukraine
And the following:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/09/17/east-germany-putin-afd-misinformation/
Why Does Eastern Germany Love Putin So Much?
Russian disinformation has bewitched the far right and the far left.
SEPTEMBER 17, 2023
@frostbite no need to read that. We were discussing the grass root pacifism of the left wing of the SPD, as that's the kind of "pacifism" @HTG mentioned. While your links are not false they are simply discussing a different branch of anti-Ukraine movement and distract from the original point.
Isn't Schröder part of the SPD pacifists?
He isn't part of the group I am talking about, after all he was the first German chancellor who went to war (Yugoslavia 1999). He is against supporting Ukraine for obvious reasons, but he isn't aligned with the wing @HTG and I am talking about. The oldest As I said, simply different groups of people. What I am talking about is the position inside the SPD that was already against the founding of the Bundeswehr 1955.
You yourself quite often talk about how Germany has to take responsibility for WW2 etc. THIS is exactly a way to do that. A stupid way, at least today, you and I agree on that, but still a way.