Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

VorZakone

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B. Munich

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frostbite said:
Why Does Eastern Germany Love Putin So Much?
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Not sure whether it's genuine admiration of Putin or more a general frustration of more and more Germans about the politics of the last decade.

I left Germany 30 years ago, so I don't have a first hand picture of the situation. However, I'm often stunned and surprised when I meet German tourists, mostly elder males, and hear their never ending rants about politics and the direction Germany is heading for.

It all got worse with refugee crisis in 2015. Many realize when visiting Thailand or the Philippines they aren't the top dogs anymore they used to be 10 or 15 years ago. Other nations have more money and are showing it.
The frustration originates from politics that don't address the long known and overdue issues (digitalization, education, overboarding bureaucracy, infrastructure, secure the pensions and social welfare) but instead the politicians focus on gendering, how often one can change his gender, legalizing cannabis and other "important" things.
While Germany has money to finance bicycle ways in Peru or subsidizing China with many millions there isn't any money left for German farmers. Energy prices are 4x the prices in the US but the government shutdown the last 4 nuclear plants. Ideology before pragmatism.

I don't say all their points are valid but it's the general sentiment many have. They are fed up with the establishment and established parties. Similar to the MAGA crowd in the US.

Calling them dumb and shortsighted to support populist and right (or left) wing parties doesn't help as they becoming more and more. Soon it might become difficult to form governments in some of the Eastern states.

In many cases I understand their frustration but turning their back on democracy and supporting extremist, populist parties and sympathizing with dictators like Putin is off course the totally wrong way to go.
It's up to the established parties to recognize this danger and to find a way to address the real problems or it can become very nasty in the near future.
 

B. Munich

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maniak said:
Just wondering why it helps to call the left dumb but not right wing populists.
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You mixing quotes from to separate replies.

The first is about voters in Germany who are voting for right or left wing populist parties out of frustration about the current established parties and their policies.
Their views and frustration are in some ways similar to the MAGA crowd but clearly without the Trump ****. Luckily neither the populist left or right in Germany have idolized leader like Trump.

The second is about liberals and left leaning voters in the US who are anti Trump but frustrated by Biden's policy and decide not to vote. I probably should have better written not voting in this case is dumb as it helps Trump.
 

VorZakone

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What's up with Macron's rhetoric lately? Playing a blame game against other EU nations? Posturing?

 

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VorZakone said:
What's up with Macron's rhetoric lately? Playing a blame game against other EU nations? Posturing?

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It’s odd because to me it seems there is zero chance of French boots on the ground in Ukraine. Perhaps he is anticipating a Trump win in the elections and a subsequent reliance on European aid in Ukraine.
 

4bars

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VorZakone said:
What's up with Macron's rhetoric lately? Playing a blame game against other EU nations? Posturing?

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I remember Macron with a 2-3 days beard trying to get Putin on the phone playing him like a fiddle.

Putin broke his heart and now wants revenge?
 

Simbo

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4bars said:
I remember Macron with a 2-3 days beard trying to get Putin on the phone playing him like a fiddle.

Putin broke his heart and now wants revenge?
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It was later established that was at Zelensky's request wasn't it? To establish some dialog with Putin.

I think the media portrayal of him as the useless naïve diplomatic was a bit unfair.
 

frostbite

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stefan92 said:
He isn't part of the group I am talking about, after all he was the first German chancellor who went to war (Yugoslavia 1999). He is against supporting Ukraine for obvious reasons, but he isn't aligned with the wing @HTG and I am talking about. The oldest As I said, simply different groups of people. What I am talking about is the position inside the SPD that was already against the founding of the Bundeswehr 1955.

You yourself quite often talk about how Germany has to take responsibility for WW2 etc. THIS is exactly a way to do that. A stupid way, at least today, you and I agree on that, but still a way.
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I don't disagree with you as a particular person, on the contrary - I agree with most of your opinions, but for the record... THIS is not a way to do that.

When you steal money, if you want to take responsibility, you don't just sit and do nothing. You actively try to give the money back, and if you have none, you work and earn the money and pay back what you stole and more.

If you have killed people and you want to take responsibility, you don't just do nothing. You try to save lives, you try to save the good guys and stop the bad guys. Doing nothing, and letting the bad guys kill and destroy, does not make you a good guy, it makes you a silent collaborator.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"*. I expected that the Germans have learned this because of their experience with Hitler. Especially when their leaders today talk in public about moral values (like Merkel still today defends herself talking about corruption in Ukraine as her reason for refusing to start NATO membership talks, which would be just a start and could take many years anyway, and unfortunately the journalists did not ask her about Putin and Erdogan corruption, her problem was just Ukraine corruption...).

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* “Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.” (John Stuart Mill, 1867)
 

Red in STL

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NicolaSacco said:
It’s odd because to me it seems there is zero chance of French boots on the ground in Ukraine. Perhaps he is anticipating a Trump win in the elections and a subsequent reliance on European aid in Ukraine.
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I suspect it's conditioning the French public to accept that this may one day happen, not necessarily in Ukraine, but somewhere
 

4bars

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Simbo said:
It was later established that was at Zelensky's request wasn't it? To establish some dialog with Putin.

I think the media portrayal of him as the useless naïve diplomatic was a bit unfair.
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I am not going to dispute that as I don't know. I'll take your word. What was beyond pathetic is the posture of looking tired, without shaving with picture on the phone and all the PR stunt for weeks. Was ridiculous
 

VorZakone

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Sudan's leader al-Burhan called Zelensky for help. He had supplied Ukraine with weapons when Russia invaded. The Ukrainians saw an opportunity to hurt Russia's financial interests in Sudan.

 
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VorZakone

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VorZakone

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Exclusive: US prepared ‘rigorously’ for potential Russian nuclear strike in Ukraine in late 2022, officials say

In late 2022, the US began “preparing rigorously” for Russia potentially striking Ukraine with a nuclear weapon, in what would have been the first nuclear attack in war since the US dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki nearly eighty years before, two senior administration officials told CNN.

The administration’s fear, a second senior administration official told me, “was not just hypothetical — it was also based on some information that we picked up.”
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https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/09/...ial-russian-nuclear-strike-ukraine/index.html
 

WPMUFC

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VorZakone said:
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Macron taking the matter actually seriously. I've loved his switch in rhetoric on this. We have an imperialist nut-case on the move again in Europe. PUTIN WANTS LAND AND RESOURCES. How many times does this have to be said?

All these people saying "just give him Ukraine" or "Ukraine has to give up and come to the table", have you never opened a fecking text book? The only difference this time is the fascist imperialist has nukes and seems happy to threaten their use unless he gets to recreate the Russian Empire.

I don't know why the west is still so slow here. Give every country that wants it membership in NATO, bring back full scale European military industrial production. Tax people more to fund it. The dithering is pathetic.
 

maniak

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WPMUFC said:
Tax people more to fund it.
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Yeah when people are struggling to pay rent and buy food/medicine, let's tax them to build more bombs. I wonder who they would vote for in the next election.
 
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