City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

It's interesting to see what people think is a fair punishment.

For me they should be kicked out of the football league and made to start again at the very bottom of the non league pyramid.

What City have done is far worse than what a club like Bury have done. Why should get Man City get special treatment?
 
Because realistically if they started next year on -100 points with any minus transferring over to other seasons they would likely lose a lot of key players (and Pep) + They'd have to reduce wages etc to not breach the rules repeatedly.

Lets say they got 55 points, that would mean relegation to the championship and then they'd start that season with -45 points which would likely mean a second relegation.

For me that would be the fair way to implement a punishment.
Make it 200 points and strip them of everything won and I’m on board.
 
City are purchased by Abu Dhabi in September 2008. Manchester City placed 9th the season prior. Abu Dhabi get to work buying players who wouldn't otherwise even look in City's direction. 9th place in 2007/'08 becomes 8th place in 2008/'09; the initial steps of the process take a while to bed in, as the old is replaced with the new. City's first big leap takes place the next season with 8th place bested by three positions. They finish the 2009/'10 season in 5th position. We're now in 2010/'11 and City have sacked Hughes and got their first big name coach in Roberto Mancini. They finish 3rd that season and are now a Champions League club. They've been a perennial fixture in the CL places ever since.

There are no cyclic ups or downs, no consequence for poor purchases where normal clubs are lumped with players whose value plummets who they then cannot get off their books because they cannot afford to pay up their contracts willy-nilly and no other club will take them on without subsidy. There is no fear or regard for any of the recognised norms clubs who are not state-owned are hamstrung by. City are a guaranteed lock for a CL place, thus taking it away from any legitimate contender who is then vying with the remainder for 'a go'. The established Old Order are hurt by this, but the remainder are absolutely crushed by it because they have to have more luck than ever before, or take on more financial risk than ever before to try and break this new status quo.

Meanwhile, of the Old Order, not one of them has been a lock in the CL positions as a perennial fixture since 2009/'10

Manchester United have missed out on the CL 5, going on 6 times (once this season concludes).

Liverpool have missed out on the CL 6 times.

Chelsea have missed out on the CL 4, going on 5 times (once this season concludes).

Arsenal have missed out on the CL 6 times.

This is the Old Order, look how many times these so-called behemoths have failed to qualify for the Champions League since City became an indubitable fixture in the competition. Whether you wish to count Chelsea or not, the point remains - Chelsea are more an example of a club with no hope forcing themselves into the conversation, but not overstepping the mark to the point they have broken football.

Now, as stated by numerous people and their painstaking efforts to make clear how damaging what City are doing is, it's not the clubs above who are the most put out by City, it's the teams below them who, without City's permanency would have had a chance to make their play for the top table. Spurs are going to have been the biggest fall guys, but now it's also the likes of Villa as they try and push through the glass ceiling to compete directly with the teams above (and not City).

There is no time in English football history where Old Orders (they used to be dynamic: Wolves, for example, used to be a big dog up to the conclusion of the 1950's) as there have been - or supposedly established - where those teams remained, perennially, at the helm. In fact, most are defined by golden periods followed by fallow times where they cannot compete for the league nor CL (or previously, the European Cup).

Great periods for these sides are attributed to great men doing unbelievably shrewd work within a financial remit that whilst at the higher end, was not obliterating those around them - the clubs ebbed and flowed with the passage of these managers. City are a faceless state, as @Regulus Arcturus Black stated, there is no way for them to fail because they will always have the best in class, will always replace the best with the best and there will never be a lull due to financial instability or uncertainty. In other words, completely and utterly artificial conditions, especially when contrasted with what history has told us about every one of the Old Order, who all, to a club, could/did/have slumped and have had to re-establish themselves once more years down the line.

It's clear that what some see as "Manchester United" is actually an infernal loathing of Alex Ferguson and the brilliance he ushered into the club, which immediately lost its way without him at the top. In the following 10 years, the cluelessness, and more importantly, the consequences of that cluelessness, have not only seen Manchester United fall back into the pack, but for most of the time, be behind them by some distance. The exact same thing befell Liverpool when Dalglish handed over to Souness and sent them flailing, not only off the top spot, but to be out of the running for the title for years. In very short order, both clubs went from halcyon periods with great players to an exodus and squads and managers who hadn't a prayer. This is how the Old Order works and what their pitfalls are. One or two bad managerial hires and they can fall like a house of cards because consequence for poor decisions then comes back to haunt them as a debt that needs paying in full. These old clubs don't just get to wipe the slate clean each season and go again with a brand new set of players if the bad buys don't work out. They are lumped with them and the general bar for the side will steadily diminish. Arsenal experienced exactly the same thing once Wenger stopped shitting gold. The stadium didn't help, but it wasn't their downfall, but it highlights another point and consequence: the either, or. By pouring money into the new stadium, they were going to be hamstrung for years. A conscious decision made to better their stadium meant less money could be pumped into the team, and anyone coming to manage them had to accept that. At City? Nope, we'll redevelop a portion of the city - yes, the literal city - whilst still hiring best in class across all facets on off and the pitch with no fallout whatsoever. Hmm... clearly the same playing field as what everyone else is uuming and ahhing from.

The worst thing of all is City didn't have to cheat as a state is going to be Borg-like in its assimilation by its very nature. It cannot be anything else, which is why it has no place in football, but that's besides the point as this is about cheating to achieve ends as hurriedly and as artificially as one can imagine.

As much as the Old Order could be despised by those who were not part of it, they were not infinite or unmovable. Every single one of them had sizeable lulls multiple times in their histories and provided opportunities for others to take their slice of the pie should they be so fortunate to go upwind at the time of a boon for the game. We'll never know what would have happened without City in the picture, but history tells us, quite clearly, that even the biggest of English clubs has never been too big to not fail, until now. With Ferguson's retirement, there was no guarantee status quo would have remained, but unlike in the past, where new players could gobble up space, things quickly became established in this new, most broken order where the winningest team's biggest concerns are in how to hide their wrongdoing. The footballing side of things, a total formality due to them having no consequences for anything that goes wrong.
Best post on the thread by far
 
Make it 200 points and strip them of everything won and I’m on board.
115 points deduction for 115 seasons. And Pep has to continue as manager for all of those seasons wearing a novelty wig of his choice.
 
It's interesting to see what people think is a fair punishment.

For me they should be kicked out of the football league and made to start again at the very bottom of the non league pyramid.

What City have done is far worse than what a club like Bury have done. Why should get Man City get special treatment?

Only fitting punishment.
 
Whilst I suspect the delay is due to ongoing negotiations to minimise any punishment I still cling to the hope it's because they have had to take the time to get everything 100% watertight for the punishment and are waiting for the domestic season to end so that the sporting focus is on the Euros then the Olympics for them to drop their bombshell.

Yeah, I know, but a guy can dream.
 
It's interesting to see what people think is a fair punishment.

For me they should be kicked out of the football league and made to start again at the very bottom of the non league pyramid.

What City have done is far worse than what a club like Bury have done. Why should get Man City get special treatment?
As people have alluded to there’s something going on behind the scenes with this. Their influence and reach, relationships within the city and with the government, the reluctance of anyone to point out the 115 charges. You see the body language and demeanour change on Sky when it’s even hinted at. Pundits and journalists don’t want to lose their access and the benefits they get from being part of the machine.

There’s at this point unsubstantiated rumours they’re preparing cease and desist letters to a number of individuals and entities. That doesn’t strike me as the actions of a club about to be charged.

For the amount of cheating and the cumulative effect they should be barred from the league, stripped of all titles and the ownership group removed.

I’m still not wholly convinced that the PL didn’t just get in over their heads with this and decided to show some teeth because of the white papers stuff. They now realise there’s no way to make any of it stick. City’s owners and lawyers are going to dance around them.

I truly hope I’m wrong.
 
As people have alluded to there’s something going on behind the scenes with this. Their influence and reach, relationships within the city and with the government, the reluctance of anyone to point out the 115 charges. You see the body language and demeanour change on Sky when it’s even hinted at. Pundits and journalists don’t want to lose their access and the benefits they get from being part of the machine.

There’s at this point unsubstantiated rumours they’re preparing cease and desist letters to a number of individuals and entities. That doesn’t strike me as the actions of a club about to be charged.

For the amount of cheating and the cumulative effect they should be barred from the league, stripped of all titles and the ownership group removed.

I’m still not wholly convinced that the PL didn’t just get in over their heads with this and decided to show some teeth because of the white papers stuff. They now realise there’s no way to make any of it stick. City’s owners and lawyers are going to dance around them.

I truly hope I’m wrong.

Sadly I think you're right.

It would also be incredibly damaging for the brand of The Premier League to admit that the most dominant club over the last seven years have cheated their way to the title.

I expect that all they will get is a massive fine and a relatively small points deduction at most.
 
The PL cannot relegate City all the way down the football pyramid. They can dock enough points to relegate them to the Championship only, or they can expel them from the PL. But as far as I'm aware they are not under threat of sanction by the FA.

Neither of that will happen though.

Nick Harris has been covering this for a while and he thinks it's 50/50 on whether City are found guilty or not. Plus, when you consider the PL aren't the most competent of organizations and have probably botched the charges (it didn't take UEFA this long)... IMO they'll draw a line under it and vote in the proposed spending cap to restrain clubs going forward (not shocked that there's been little talk on it on this forum). Spending is way more trackable than revenue.

At the end of the day they'll only be guilty in the court of public opinion, of buying their way to success/financial doping depending on who you speak to. Which I don't think they'd deny. And I don't think they care.
 
It's interesting to see what people think is a fair punishment.

For me they should be kicked out of the football league and made to start again at the very bottom of the non league pyramid.

What City have done is far worse than what a club like Bury have done. Why should get Man City get special treatment?

Agreed plus stripped of their titles and anything they won in this period voided

No one can accurately say where they'd have finished each season had they not become 115 charges FC. I doubt they'd have got pep and numerous players they have.

There is a golden opportunity to use them as an example and deterrent for any future 115 charges FCs but the powers that be will bottle it for political reasons and they'll just get what the authorities will claim is a massive fine but will just be pennies to them

Clubs affected even include Watford who would have potentially won an FA cup if not playing against a club with 115 financial doping charges against it - that would have given them Europa and any money that comes with that
 
The PL cannot relegate City all the way down the football pyramid. They can dock enough points to relegate them to the Championship only, or they can expel them from the PL. But as far as I'm aware they are not under threat of sanction by the FA.

Neither of that will happen though.

Nick Harris has been covering this for a while and he thinks it's 50/50 on whether City are found guilty or not. Plus, when you consider the PL aren't the most competent of organizations and have probably botched the charges (it didn't take UEFA this long)... IMO they'll draw a line under it and vote in the proposed spending cap to restrain clubs going forward (not shocked that there's been little talk on it on this forum). Spending is way more trackable than revenue.

At the end of the day they'll only be guilty in the court of public opinion, of buying their way to success/financial doping depending on who you speak to. Which I don't think they'd deny. And I don't think they care.

If they're expelled from the Premier League, they'll have to ask the EFL for a place somewhere between the Championship and League Two. They may well say no. Then they'd be left asking the National League, then the Northern Premier League if they say no.

I don't think this is happening, but I don't think EFL are obliged to accept them in even if the PL have kicked them out.
 
Sadly I think you're right.

It would also be incredibly damaging for the brand of The Premier League to admit that the most dominant club over the last seven years have cheated their way to the title.

I expect that all they will get is a massive fine and a relatively small points deduction at most.
I agree, it’s absolutely farcical we’re even in this situation, but I don’t think people have truly yet understood the depth of scandal that would occur. I can’t think of a bigger instance of cheating across any sport ever. That’s why I think there will be nothing done. 4 in a row and 5/6 titles by a team charged by the governing body of the competition they’re playing in. I doubt there is appetite to admit something on this scale has occurred in this league.
 
If they're expelled from the Premier League, they'll have to ask the EFL for a place somewhere between the Championship and League Two. They may well say no. Then they'd be left asking the National League, then the Northern Premier League if they say no.

I don't think this is happening, but I don't think EFL are obliged to accept them in even if the PL have kicked them out.

And I think it is that sort of mess the PL is looking to avoid.
 
It's interesting to see what people think is a fair punishment.

For me they should be kicked out of the football league and made to start again at the very bottom of the non league pyramid.

What City have done is far worse than what a club like Bury have done. Why should get Man City get special treatment?

Imo (Will never happen obviously)

- Transfer ban for as long as they doped (so 16 or so years).
- Owners have the club forcibly taken off them or forced to have oversight of all financials in the future.
- All trophies stripped from them and awarded to the losing finalist or second placed team in case of a league.
- Forced to pay financial compensation to clubs who missed out on spots in the league due to their doping.
- Kicked out of the PL. This is a bit of a difficult one because then you've got at least some top players just running rampant in League Two, which isn't fair on those teams.

I don't think this is harsh in the slightest. They've completely fecked with the whole integrity of the sport for nearly 20 years. It's an absolute shitshow and even after getting caught they're blocking investigations at every corner.
 
Imo (Will never happen obviously)

- Transfer ban for as long as they doped (so 16 or so years).
- Owners have the club forcibly taken off them or forced to have oversight of all financials in the future.
- All trophies stripped from them and awarded to the losing finalist or second placed team in case of a league.
- Forced to pay financial compensation to clubs who missed out on spots in the league due to their doping.
- Kicked out of the PL. This is a bit of a difficult one because then you've got at least some top players just running rampant in League Two, which isn't fair on those teams.

I don't think this is harsh in the slightest. They've completely fecked with the whole integrity of the sport for nearly 20 years. It's an absolute shitshow and even after getting caught they're blocking investigations at every corner.
I agree. The club should be forcibly liquidated.
 
Imo (Will never happen obviously)

- Transfer ban for as long as they doped (so 16 or so years).
- Owners have the club forcibly taken off them or forced to have oversight of all financials in the future.
- All trophies stripped from them and awarded to the losing finalist or second placed team in case of a league.
- Forced to pay financial compensation to clubs who missed out on spots in the league due to their doping.
- Kicked out of the PL. This is a bit of a difficult one because then you've got at least some top players just running rampant in League Two, which isn't fair on those teams.

I don't think this is harsh in the slightest. They've completely fecked with the whole integrity of the sport for nearly 20 years. It's an absolute shitshow and even after getting caught they're blocking investigations at every corner.

Yeah I agree with virtually all of that.

The only problematic bit is,
- All trophies stripped from them and awarded to the losing finalist or second placed team in case of a league.

I understand the logic behind giving it to the second placed team or runner up, but the whole competition changes if you remove Man city from the equation. Some years you'd have teams winning titles that never actually had the pressure of being in a title race and in the cups, every team knocked out by City could have also got to the final.
 
Imo (Will never happen obviously)

- Transfer ban for as long as they doped (so 16 or so years).
- Owners have the club forcibly taken off them or forced to have oversight of all financials in the future.
- All trophies stripped from them and awarded to the losing finalist or second placed team in case of a league.
- Forced to pay financial compensation to clubs who missed out on spots in the league due to their doping.
- Kicked out of the PL. This is a bit of a difficult one because then you've got at least some top players just running rampant in League Two, which isn't fair on those teams.

I don't think this is harsh in the slightest. They've completely fecked with the whole integrity of the sport for nearly 20 years. It's an absolute shitshow and even after getting caught they're blocking investigations at every corner.

I like this option a lot! However the trouble is would the points be the same and the second placed team still second place as you can't guarantee the outcome of the games against 115 charges FC would have been the same had they not been doing their cheating. I'd rather they were voided, a bit like Lance Armstrong's tour de Frances. It'll be too easy to brush under the carpet if they simply award to the second placed team, whereas having multiple years read "void" would result in a level of accountability and warning to any future 115 charges FCs

Like your suggestion of compensation to the runner up in cup competitions - links to the example I gave earlier of Watford who they beat in a final - if they had won it would have meant Europa for Watford, and the financial incentives from it - they are a smaller club and it would have benefited them to even be in the competition. Trouble is you then drill down further and look at whether teams would have been relegated had 115 charges FC not spanked them because it affected the goal difference etc.

They simply must be heavily punished, I'd say punished in an unprecedented way (NOT a fine), because of how many strands of affect they have caused by quite simply put, cheating.

Unfortunately the fact the PL account always seems to actively promote them doesn't help give confidence in any meaningful or justified outcome.
 
I agree, it’s absolutely farcical we’re even in this situation, but I don’t think people have truly yet understood the depth of scandal that would occur. I can’t think of a bigger instance of cheating across any sport ever. That’s why I think there will be nothing done. 4 in a row and 5/6 titles by a team charged by the governing body of the competition they’re playing in. I doubt there is appetite to admit something on this scale has occurred in this league.

Pushes stuff further down the road doesn’t work they will ruin everything they have built with the premier league not today or next year but it will happen.
 
I'm definitely concerned they're going to bottle it or are being massively pressured by external parties. The knock-on ramifications for what they've done are absolutely colossal and it'd be the biggest scandal in football history really.

They absolutely deserve to be stripped of every single trophy won in this period, but I just cannot see that happening unfortunately. It's too messy for the PL, and Masters saying it will 'resolve itself' is fecking grim wording.

Yeah that wording is the death knell of them ever getting severely punished like they deserve. Like a poster said should be stripped of all titles but sadly that's never gonna happen. They are dopers in the financial sense rather than the other like Lance Armstrong.
 
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I really think nothing serious is gonna happen to them. Their owner gave an interview and sounded extremely confident on the charges against them. He was basically laughed it off. He must have a lot more information from his lawyers than we do.
 
It's just a lack of faith in the authorities to actually deal with it.

Maybe I'm being pessimistic.

Considering they hadn't finished above 8th in the Premier League before the takeover, it's not just league titles they've cost teams, and not even just CL (or Europa) qualification, it's been the difference between entering in group stages or having to go through qualifiers. Then there's the teams they've beaten in cup competitions even when they've not gone on to win it, changing the whole dynamic of the tournament.

They should be done as a club. We should be seeing FC City of Manchester forming and starting in the Manchester League Division Two, ground sharing with Stockport Town.

Yeah I have absolutely zero faith in the authorities, complete kick in the teeth for Forest and Everton but Premier League keep their nose in the UAE trough so won't care about protests from either club
 
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Brilliant post.

What's the betting all 115 charges FC gets is a fine. Which will mean naff all given the money they have

Look what's happened to Everton and those were more minor breaches yet we are potentially going to see 115 Charges go unpunished/with a pathetic punishment that won't hinder them

Even the PL Facebook page seems heavily celebratory of 115 Charges FC and Haaland. I know it wants to promote to good players and league, but sure let's promote the club that should be punished for effectively cheating

Let's not forget they were supposed to be banned from the CL, yet got that over turned then when they would have been banned went and won it, thus giving them the treble that only United have previously done (albeit United's was legitimate)

They need to use them as an example of what happens if clubs take part in such serious degrees of cheating, and should be getting points deductions in the tens or even hundreds. But they won't because no one wants to stand up to them because they want to be able to keep fingers in pies

It's not just clubs like United/Liverpool etc that are being majorly affected by them going forward you have teams like Aston Villa competing for CL and the money that brings - and AV aren't one of the top tier clubs for finances so it would be massive for them

Anything they've won should be voided, because you can't tell how results would have gone if 115 charges FC weren't involved. They should be stripped of everything they've won since the ownership changed

If nothing happened, where's the deterrent to stop them buying other clubs and doing this, making the league even more broken


The entire post glossed over Chelsea. Who destroyed this league back in the day, and since they started spending money we stopped winning. They spent 250 to 300 million back in mid 2000s.....that money is insane NOW. Never mind back then. In the same windows Arsenal spent 40, United 60. Its just that, no offense, most United fans back in the day had blinkers on just because you were still winning owing to Fergie's brilliance and seeing Arsenal stumbling about was easier than tolerating Chelsea's cheating. And I am hitting 40, I still remember how United fans would laugh at any Arsenal fan complaining about Chelsea back then. There is zero chance Chelsea would have won any title, never mind a CL, had they not cheated their way to it.

City are what Chelsea were, except more efficient. And City followed and then fine tuned their cheating in ways Chelsea didn't think of. If a monster like Pep existed back then, Chelsea would have got him and dominated it like City have.
 
The entire post glossed over Chelsea. Who destroyed this league back in the day, and since they started spending money we stopped winning. They spent 250 to 300 million back in mid 2000s.....that money is insane NOW. Never mind back then. In the same windows Arsenal spent 40, United 60. Its just that, no offense, most United fans back in the day had blinkers on just because you were still winning owing to Fergie's brilliance and seeing Arsenal stumbling about was easier than tolerating Chelsea's cheating. And I am hitting 40, I still remember how United fans would laugh at any Arsenal fan complaining about Chelsea back then. There is zero chance Chelsea would have won any title, never mind a CL, had they not cheated their way to it.

City are what Chelsea were, except more efficient. And City followed and then fine tuned their cheating in ways Chelsea didn't think of. If a monster like Pep existed back then, Chelsea would have got him and dominated it like City have.

I can't stand Chelsea but there's big differences between them and City.

I don't think there was such a thing as financial fair play back then was there? Chelsea were basically a super charged Blackburn from a decade before, buying the title with outrageous spending power.

City were "allegedly" masking where their income came from, paying double salaries and all sorts of other stuff at a time when financial fair play did exist.
 
I can't stand Chelsea but there's big differences between them and City.

I don't think there was such a thing as financial fair play back then was there? Chelsea were basically a super charged Blackburn from a decade before, buying the title with outrageous spending power.

City were "allegedly" masking where their income came from, paying double salaries and all sorts of other stuff at a time when financial fair play did exist.


FFP not being there isn't here nor there. They still became powers due to a sugar daddy supplying them with money, without which they'd be nothing. They introduced this nonsense at an UNSEEN scale not seen before.
 
FFP not being there isn't here nor there. They still became powers due to a sugar daddy supplying them with money, without which they'd be nothing. They introduced this nonsense at an UNSEEN scale not seen before.
Difference is, not that this condones the PL allowing him in, is that he is an individual and so whilst he is wealthy and somewhat politically influential, it's on a very small scale compared to the UAE owning a club. In a way it was bound to happen as more and more money came in, the issue now simply has to be to stop teams cheating rather than trying to stop states getting involved.
 
The entire post glossed over Chelsea. Who destroyed this league back in the day, and since they started spending money we stopped winning. They spent 250 to 300 million back in mid 2000s.....that money is insane NOW. Never mind back then. In the same windows Arsenal spent 40, United 60. Its just that, no offense, most United fans back in the day had blinkers on just because you were still winning owing to Fergie's brilliance and seeing Arsenal stumbling about was easier than tolerating Chelsea's cheating. And I am hitting 40, I still remember how United fans would laugh at any Arsenal fan complaining about Chelsea back then. There is zero chance Chelsea would have won any title, never mind a CL, had they not cheated their way to it.

City are what Chelsea were, except more efficient. And City followed and then fine tuned their cheating in ways Chelsea didn't think of. If a monster like Pep existed back then, Chelsea would have got him and dominated it like City have.

This is untrue and I'm a City fan. There was no rule preventing Chelsea doing what they did and while FFP is for the most part a crock of shit, City signed up to it. We could have if we didn't believe in it have fought it and probably won back in 2014, what annoys me is City cut a deal with UEFA and made the rod for our own back. We were happy to use FFP to stop others coming up and after our own (probably) illegitimate rise. That's speaking on FFP and PSR alone and stinks of hypocrisy.

Then theres the fact Chelsea never lied about their income and its very much looking like according to the PL City did.

The fact is and what irks me as a City fan is we should have either fought it or got in line, if these charges are proven, we did neither, we were happy to be both part of the big teams/clubs and still breaking rules we championed to get there. It stinks to high heaven and if we are guilty as is likely (very likely) we should be punished as such.

In terms of football I agree City and Chelsea before us had the same effect on the shape of the league but Chelsea did it within the rules and it looks very much like we didn't.
 
I can't stand Chelsea but there's big differences between them and City.

I don't think there was such a thing as financial fair play back then was there? Chelsea were basically a super charged Blackburn from a decade before, buying the title with outrageous spending power.

City were "allegedly" masking where their income came from, paying double salaries and all sorts of other stuff at a time when financial fair play did exist.

Wenger hinted years ago at Chelsea paying players or managers beyond what was reported in their financials, double salaries, when talking about why Arsenal couldn't compete.
 
Broom, meet rug. City have become TOO BIG TO FAIL and the FA will find a way to excuse what everyone acknowledges was cheating of the highest order.