Then that’s what he’d be doing. Why doesn’t he play 433 but say ‘I want to eventually play 343’? If he was had this ideology, he would not have been playing full backs instead of wingers since he got here.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Then that’s what he’d be doing. Why doesn’t he play 433 but say ‘I want to eventually play 343’? If he was had this ideology, he would not have been playing full backs instead of wingers since he got here.
I don't understand how a manager can only know one way to setup. Nevermind a young manager who you would think is still learning and developing his skills as a manager. No successful manager in football (that I can think of) only set up to play one way for their entire career, and certainly would not only set up to play one way when that one way is clearly not working week after week. That's madness.
Amorim needs to try something different.
Amorim needs to try something different.
I think he means that CL teams are not dropping into it thus making this year a lot easier to win on paper.
Because his wingbacks still need to put a shift in. Antony isn’t cut out for the PL, Rashford is a lazy mf and Garnacho clearly isn’t disciplined enough either, otherwise I’m sure he would have been played there - you know, like Amad was, who has displayed sufficient dedication.
I can't say that I am too harsh on Amorim this season for the reasons previously stated. I do appreciate as well that he sticks to his philosophy with these players because some of them will make up his team next season and beyond. If he changes tactically too much then the players are unprepared next season and become disjointed.
However, there should be some leeway with the system if we are not performing at a level that is satisfactory - particularly in big games. Tonight's game was a big game considering a trophy was still a realistic probability. However, we persisted with similar tactics and produced similar outputs.
These players aren't cut out for this system. I do believe however, given a good summer of buying and selling Amorim could transform this team into one that finishes somewhere like 15th this season into one that challenges the top four next. Remove some of the deadwood and players that won't fit in combined with new players and some of our youth having another year of experience and it would not surprise me to see a turnaround.
My biggest issue is when that system is then found out and counteracted. At some point the system, even with the right players, will fail. Does Amorim have acumen to be adaptable well enough to counter that? On current form it would suggest that Plan A is the only plan in the locker.
With the right players we will improve but can we win a title with Amorim? I highly doubt it unless he begins to experiment with new ways and ideas. The rest of the season would be a perfect time to do so with what is essentially a free hit.
However, there should be some leeway with the system if we are not performing at a level that is satisfactory - particularly in big games. Tonight's game was a big game considering a trophy was still a realistic probability. However, we persisted with similar tactics and produced similar outputs.
These players aren't cut out for this system. I do believe however, given a good summer of buying and selling Amorim could transform this team into one that finishes somewhere like 15th this season into one that challenges the top four next. Remove some of the deadwood and players that won't fit in combined with new players and some of our youth having another year of experience and it would not surprise me to see a turnaround.
My biggest issue is when that system is then found out and counteracted. At some point the system, even with the right players, will fail. Does Amorim have acumen to be adaptable well enough to counter that? On current form it would suggest that Plan A is the only plan in the locker.
With the right players we will improve but can we win a title with Amorim? I highly doubt it unless he begins to experiment with new ways and ideas. The rest of the season would be a perfect time to do so with what is essentially a free hit.
Amorim can’t be held accountable because he inherited a shit team that ETH built and he needs players that can fit his system.
ETH couldn’t be accountable because he inherited a shit team that Ole built and he needs players that fit his system.
That’s how we’ve ended up with this shambles of a squad.
I just hope INEOS wasn’t just talking when they said the club would have its own footballing identity and sign players based on that.
ETH couldn’t be accountable because he inherited a shit team that Ole built and he needs players that fit his system.
That’s how we’ve ended up with this shambles of a squad.
I just hope INEOS wasn’t just talking when they said the club would have its own footballing identity and sign players based on that.
Right now we are struggling to score goals, he has to show the attacking intent in his team selections. As a coach he has to tweak and make changes, whether that leads to losing 5-3, we will have seen some initiative as to managing the team. Currently we are in a freefall he has to do something to stem the tide.
It's counterproductive to play a completely different system. Amorim has played Amad there regularly. He obviously feels that Garnacho isn't capable of playing the role. Dorgu has been signed and we have already seen him get forward on multiple occasions. On top of that, we want to sign Quenda in the summer. It's very apparent what the intention is.
This seems to be a Manchester United only notion. I don’t recall that being a thing that long ago and/or at other clubs
Doesn’t even seem like the best way to manage a club
It's the exact mindset that got us into this mess
Adapt the system then to allow one lazy motherfecker. Rashford annoyed the feck out of me, but Christ I’d take his lazy shit in exchange for the goals he’d be offering right now.
You'd think most of the fans would have learned after the last 3 or 4 expensive manager-driven rebuild disasters.
Everyone accepts that it will be a long haul to turn the club round until we start losing games...
The replacements were never going to come this season. Baby steps.
He did this. We were losing 1-0, and he changed things by bringing on Garnacho and Obi. He played our first choice striker, our second choice striker, and 2 players were brought in as number 10s (Eriksen and Bruno).
I'm sure he would have loved to have brought on prime Scholes, Van Nistelrooy, Cantona, and Rooney. But, alas, we had to turn to our youth options since there is nobody else left.
Ah, so the ‘still need to’ is not supplementary, it’s clearly the primary. Mazraoui and Dalot have offered zero in attack going for months, yet their zero in attack is more important for his system than the thrust of Garnacho, Rashford or Antony. Even Malacia played ahead of them. These players have also been average at best in a defensive capacity themselves.
If his apparent philosophy is what you insist it is, and is a positive one, we should have been playing Antony or Garnacho and waiting for better versions of them to come in the summer, rather than playing 5 at the back and waiting for different profiles altogether to come. And Amad was quickly moved from that role in order for a defender to come and play it instead.
It’s literally what landed us in this mess. The same posters would be calling Amorim’s players deadwood if he is sacked and a new manager is struggling.
A never ending cycle.
I don’t know what their way forward is, but they should stick to it and not repeat what the Glazers did by hiring managers with incredibly different styles.
At this point I'd be surprised if he made it to summer and shocked if he stayed beyond it.
It's clear by now that it's not going to work. We're not progressing at all, there's zero improvement visible. We had some good performances, but we did under every manager. There's just no coming back from this car crash of a manager performance, don't think it ever happened before.
Not all of that is Amorim's fault of course, but quite a bit is as well.
It's a shame, he seems so likeable and talks really well. He clearly has a good understanding of football but a really hard time conveying this understanding to his players. The inflexibility and stubbornness is of course a red flag, and something he really can't afford at this stage of his career.
It's clear by now that it's not going to work. We're not progressing at all, there's zero improvement visible. We had some good performances, but we did under every manager. There's just no coming back from this car crash of a manager performance, don't think it ever happened before.
Not all of that is Amorim's fault of course, but quite a bit is as well.
It's a shame, he seems so likeable and talks really well. He clearly has a good understanding of football but a really hard time conveying this understanding to his players. The inflexibility and stubbornness is of course a red flag, and something he really can't afford at this stage of his career.
But 343 coaches probably make up less than 10% coaches worldwide. Surely the best bet is to adopt a style that has the largest pool of top managers (variations of the 433)?
Amad is not a first choice wing back, as demonstrated by him starting as a forward after his first few games (rightly so). Dorgu is a left back whose attacking quality/level is yet to be established but I like what I’ve seen from him so far. Bruno should not be in the attack anyway, he’s a midfield player, putting him in attack is again, a negative move.
And of course Rashford and Garnacho shouldn’t play wing back, it is indeed common sense. In fact, common sense would be to play them as wingers, which they are. Given that our system has little sense to it, it’s no less common sense to play Garnacho at wing-back than Amad. And if your philosophy views the role as primarily an attacking one, then it is far more common sense to play a player who offers an attacking threat over a player who does not.
Alonso isn't married to any system
Seriously? There isn't a hope in hell that he's gone before the start of next season. I have no idea what planet some of you live on.
If he doesn't fluke an EL win he's gone in the summer, no two ways about it.
And he also should be. Worst thing we can do is another ETH, as in keeping him for the start of the season and sacking him before Christmas when all the signs of clear failure are already apparent
Thats just not true.
Because Garnacho and Rashford aren't wingers but wing forwards and have no deal working in defense. Thats part of the idea behind the system and what makes those positions such a challenge. We suffer right now because our previous fullbacks were never really good since they absolutely lacked any attacking output.
I think, if we try to be more attacking right now, we will get beaten even heavier. The available attackers are severely out of form, thats not going to change by adding one to the roster who usually also doesn't convince when he starts. More focus on attack with players who are not able to keep the ball plus no reliable capability of winning the ball back will make us even more vulnerable than now.
I'd see your point in terms of expectations to a degree had we not had so many injuries to vital players. Amorim should have tried to bring in an attacker on loan but lets face it, it would have been a huge ask for a new player to turn the fate of this team around.
He's very clever and positive with his post match comments, I just hope he doesn't believe half of what he says.
And yet he hasn’t once tried Garnacho there.
By the same token then, he obviously feels Mazraoui is. And if he does, you have to question why, seeing as he makes zero offensive contributions. How can this be acceptable for months to a coach philosophically opposed? If Mazraoui is only temporary due to being unsuited long-term, why can Garnacho not be temporary? Clearly, what Mazraoui can offer is a better fit than what Garnacho can, which raises questions.
You are very wrong about this. I promise you that.
It worries me a bit how one-dimensional this manager seems to be. I get that 3-4-3 is his thing and that is fair game.. however, even with 1 formations, there is different tactics possible in setting-up attacks, pressing, maintaining the ball etc. But from the eye, it looks like we are doing the same every game, and sometimes it works, but when it doesn't, he doesn't seem to have a Plan B.
I really hope that he gets it right, but as bad as we looked under ETH (partly because his kamikaze set-up, causing our midfield to be destroyed every game), a couple players had double-digit seasons last year.
I really hope that he gets it right, but as bad as we looked under ETH (partly because his kamikaze set-up, causing our midfield to be destroyed every game), a couple players had double-digit seasons last year.
Because he clearly feels that Garnacho isn't capable of playing the role. There's no conspiracy.
Yeah but that's the thing, isn't it? It's his favourite formation but he's happy to adapt and change it to get the best out of his team, see Bayern the other week. Something Amorim is straight out refusing to do
Positive? Are we thinking of the same person?
I totally agree. He needs to turn this around and quick.
I can’t imagine that Ineos will be stupid enough to make the exact same mistake two summers running.
Mazraoui is a better fit. Although, far from ideal. Garnacho obviously isn't a fit for Amorim. When you see Amad there, you realise that our manage isn't as obsessed with negative defensive options as you suggest.
But Dalot can? Despite 25 games of evidence to the contrary.
But the tide wouldn't be stemmed(?) because a loss is a loss. Maybe you wouldn't complain anymore but others who would then call him naive or whatnot. The team is badly organized and doesn't work as a unit. Thats a much bigger issue than this or that player squandering chances. But it is also much more difficult to fix.
Mate, you’ve been saying you think he’s getting sacked every week for over a month now. Maybe just wait for it to happen before going off on one about it? It probably won’t happen, anyway.
We were all saying it, because we weren't a million miles away. Top four was the minimum anyone expected this season, and we all expected it despite ETH. You know why? Because we all saw the squad and thought "yeah, decent players".this delusion and revisionism is truly insane.
We finished 8th and deserved to finish 14th. Because of the gutter signings ETH made to the cost of £400m. Nobody was saying 'he needs a title challenge', every single United fan with a shred of intelligence was saying he had to be sacked 9 months ago.
And yet now "only Bruno gets in Fulham's starting 11". Delusional?! This is what people are saying to (for some reason) defend a coach who has shown NOTHING during his time here.
We're miles better than this.
No, Dalot is far from ideal. He won't be a starter next season.