Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

pocco said:
Exactly my thoughts when I read that. I actually wish he had more ego/Jose about him at times. He's too humble and honest on most subjects.
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Agreed, he's gone a bit mopey in my opinion - he needs more ego in my opinion, more of a confrontational attitude or simply stop giving them anything and repeat something like 'game by game' etc.
Plant0x84 said:
Which suggests that Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Solskjaer, ten Hag and Amorim aren’t capable? Seems far fetched to suggest the manager is solely at fault.
Ruben should get backing from the club and patience and support from the fan base so he has space and time to build.
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Why? What have you seen in the games so far? This isn't a dig, I want to know. Coaches are in no short supply and Ineos model is based on the idea you can interchange the coaches without needing to reshape the squad. At the moment it seems like the hope of the Europa/the cost of sacking him are the two things in Amorim's favour.
 
JPRouve said:
So coaching isn't part of the equation? What makes you think that what we are seeing now will be different if you just change some players? Did this logic worked for ETH or Ole?
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I'm sure Amorim is a good coach. He knows his system like the back of his hand. I'm sure he is working with the players on this. However, any manager is only as good as the players he has at his disposal. Unfortunately for Amorim, his players not only lack quality, but in certain cases, are not natural fits for the roles his system requires.
 
In the future will we look back in awe at how ETH managed to win trophies with this squad of players , of course at the same time we will look back in anger at how he helped to assemble such an awful squad of players.

Just like with ETH , the team now under Amorim looks like they have never been coached.

That is now two coaches who have came in with good reputations but just cannot get anything out of these player , i don't think any manager or any system can.

At best we have mid to lower table squad no matter who is over them.
 
Don't have much faith in him in regards of him being the manager that will lead us to success.. think his system is just not good enough for PL Level and the timing of his hiring is very poor considering our financial restrictions. Might be a very good manager, but he's even less proven than Erik Ten Hag was.

But at the same time, think sacking him now or anytime soon would be even more damaging that keeping him on. Would like him to stay for another season, get out the deadwood and raise the standards at the club. Buy some players not specific to his system, but that will raise the technical level and physical level of the squad.

Give him another season, and try to get in a genuine world class manager proven at the highest level that fits this club and squad better.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Ineos model is based on the idea you can interchange the coaches without needing to reshape the squad.
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It is (was? - doesn’t feel like that idea progressed to be honest) but we aren’t there yet. There is a baseline the squad much match up to before you can simply swap out interchangeable pieces like players or staff.
Footballers should be able to get understand and play in multiple systems. The fact we have such an unadaptable squad tells us about where we are as a club. This group of players needs developing no matter what play style we choose long term.
 
acnumber9 said:
Then the coach needs to earn his money and do some coaching. If that’s not possible, change the formation. You’d swear some people think the only thing the manager is responsible for is picking the team. Everything else is beyond his control.
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If we are going to stick with the manager then maybe it will be a good idea to have all levels playing various formations so it can be changed in games easily.
 
acnumber9 said:
And in his first window we signed two more defenders. If there’s one thing we’ve learned about Amorim it’s that he loves defenders. He also loves subbing them on and off in every single game. Regardless of circumstance.
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We signed a wingback who can equally play as a winger as he can a fullback and on both sides.

Heaven realistically shouldn’t be first team material yet

The signings are on the club not the coach
 
Betson said:
In the future will we look back in awe at how ETH managed to win trophies with this squad of players , of course at the same time we will look back in anger at how he helped to assemble such an awful squad of players.

Just like with ETH , the team now under Amorim looks like they have never been coached.

That is now two coaches who have came in with good reputations but just cannot get anything out of these player , i don't think any manager or any system can.

At best we have mid to lower table squad no matter who is over them.
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Erik ten Hag made some huge mistakes, and apparently had lost the dressing room if we can believe Varane. You'd expect that a less stubborn manager and a better people's manager would be able to outperform him quite easily.

Sorry to say, but Amorim is just doing an incredibly poor job so far. No one expected him to do this poor, no matter how poor the squad may be.
 
Remember the geese said:
Then the team continues to lose games and the manager loses his job. Recruitment is everything.
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Rooney commented yesterday about if he was a player now would he want to join United the way they are, and players won't unless we overpay them and give them long contracts which is part of the issue now. It won't be easy to just get who we need
 
acnumber9 said:
But you act like it’s the only reason. It isn’t.

We had an attacker on the bench yesterday. The one he has to bring on shortly after half time in every game because surprise, surprise, we’re behind again.

Rashford and Antony, for all their faults, were denied minutes before they left. Why not try a youth player? It’s happened before. He chooses not to.
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Garnacho. Who is apparently carrying a knock and wasn't fit enough to start. As we enter another run of two fixtures per week.

And he did try a youth player yesterday. Who is 1`7 years old and showed some encouraging signs but should be nowhere near starting games like these at this point in his development.

If the main basis of your criticism of Amorim is based around why he's not starting injured and/or 17 year old players I'd have to say you're being a little unfair.

We needed to move on from Rashford and Antony. Having a go at the manager for denying them minutes is equally unfair.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Which suggests that Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Solskjaer, ten Hag and Amorim aren’t capable? Seems far fetched to suggest the manager is solely at fault.
Ruben should get backing from the club and patience and support from the fan base so he has space and time to build.
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At fault for what? These managers weren't in the same contexts and they had their teams perform at different levels within these context. LVG, Mourinho and Ole weren't bad, they were just not good enough for the goals of being a consistent title contender and CL participant. Moyes wasn't good enough but following SAF was a bit difficult from a PR standpont. ETH just got worse with every passing months and Amorim has been a disaster in his first 4 months.

So what are we talking about? Mourinho had a meltdown on his own after the Sevilla game, he was solely at fault, his problem wasn't performances but his ego, if he could behave he could have been the manager today. LVG was never a team builder, his transfer request at Barcelona and Bayern were laughable and the structure of United didn't do him any favor so no he wasn't solely at fault but his decisions were a key problem. Ole was a limited manager who took us as far as he could and I have nothing bad to say about him. For all of these managers maybe things would have been slightly better with a great DOF but the reality of the matter is that none of them did anything after leaving United because none of them were top managers when they joined United.
 
acnumber9 said:
But you act like it’s the only reason. It isn’t.

We had an attacker on the bench yesterday. The one he has to bring on shortly after half time in every game because surprise, surprise, we’re behind again.

Rashford and Antony, for all their faults, were denied minutes before they left. Why not try a youth player? It’s happened before. He chooses not to.
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That attacker on the bench was 17. Edit: forgot about garna who apparently was injured himself

Our 2 first team strikers are Hojlund and Zirkzee. For some reason the club brought in no reinforcements after loaning Rashford, not even a loan signing coming in
 
Remember the geese said:
I'm sure Amorim is a good coach. He knows his system like the back of his hand. I'm sure he is working with the players on this. However, any manager is only as good as the players he has at his disposal. Unfortunately for Amorim, his players not only lack quality, but in certain cases, are not natural fits for the roles his system requires.
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What if other fans aren't sure that he is a good coach? What if he isn't a good coach?
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Coaches are in no short supply and Ineos model is based on the idea you can interchange the coaches without needing to reshape the squad
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By hiring a coach that plays a system that not many top coaches play and a system that we'll no doubt have to buy specific players for?

I like Amorim and really hope he does well but it was still a massive risk to bring him in and is apparently the reason Liverpool didn't. It doesn't match a philosophy of interchangeable managers at all.
 
AjaxCunian said:
Don't have much faith in him in regards of him being the manager that will lead us to success.. think his system is just not good enough for PL Level and the timing of his hiring is very poor considering our financial restrictions. Might be a very good manager, but he's even less proven than Erik Ten Hag was.

But at the same time, think sacking him now or anytime soon would be even more damaging that keeping him on. Would like him to stay for another season, get out the deadwood and raise the standards at the club. Buy some players not specific to his system, but that will raise the technical level and physical level of the squad.

Give him another season, and try to get in a genuine world class manager proven at the highest level that fits this club and squad better.
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Perhaps. However this has been the most damaging 3 months I've ever witnessed at United on and off the pitch, so I'm not sure what that even means anymore. Unless you accept that the entire squad is absolute dog shit and needs to be replaced the way we're performing , along with the results is far beyond unacceptable.
 
acnumber9 said:
How about he do something to improve them? What do people think a football managers job is?
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Why does any manager buy players if their job is to improve what is at the club? Players who are part of our future like Amad, Ugarte, Yoro were improving, other than that we have severe deficit of players for the formation he was brought in to instil and to play, or any formation for that matter, we wouldn't be able to field a 4-3-3 right now, nor can we field a functional 3-4-3
 
Remember the geese said:
Yes, neither Mazraoui, Dalot, Garnacho or Antony are ideal for the wing-back role. And yes, it just so happens that Amorim has decided that Mazraoui and Dalot are more suitable than Garnacho and Antony. However, this is also a manager who views Amad as a superior fit to the four above. Quenda also. What would that tell you about his priorities?
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Quenda does not play for us so that means nothing to me. And Amad DOES play for us, but has been picked to play WB less frequently than Dalot/Mazraoui anyway, so it’s actually speculation on your part to simply declare that Amorim thinks he is the best option in his squad. There is actually nothing at all to suggest that he sees him as a better fit than Dalot. What you mean is that, having seen them both - YOU think Amad is the best fit of all.

I judge Amorim by his choices, and he has picked whatever it is that Dalot/Mazraoui offers more frequently than he has picked others. That means (to me) that he considers them the best suited (despite what we see from them every game). You could argue that he sees Amad as best suited for the 10 role too - but again, these are still his choices. He has decided that having Amad as a 10 is more important than having him at WB, obviously. If Amad plays WB, he will then have to, I presume, play a forward as a forward (although he has chosen a midfielder in Mainoo instead at times). He has decided that playing a forward as a forward is a worse choice than playing a defender at WB. Which is his choice, and one I am exercising my right to critique.
 
Remember the geese said:
I'm sure Amorim is a good coach. He knows his system like the back of his hand. I'm sure he is working with the players on this. However, any manager is only as good as the players he has at his disposal. Unfortunately for Amorim, his players not only lack quality, but in certain cases, are not natural fits for the roles his system requires.
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So why on earth did we hire a system specific coach? especially if we knew the funds weren't there to accommodate him to the max. I'm also sure Ruben is a good coach but that has nothing to do with rather he can succeed at this club right now in our current state.
 
red_de_pologne said:
Why does any manager buy players if their job is to improve what is at the club? Players who are part of our future like Amad, Ugarte, Yoro were improving, other than that we have severe deficit of players for the formation he was brought in to instil and to play, or any formation for that matter, we wouldn't be able to field a 4-3-3 right now, nor can we field a functional 3-4-3
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‘Right now’ being the last 2 games since players were injured/suspended I presume - not last 3 months?
 
hellhunter said:
Or, you know, a capable manager
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We get it mate, you don't like Amorim and you want him gone, you've been banging this drum for weeks. No one here is wedded to him, if anyone thought there was a manager that could get Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho to put away glaring chances, or stop Onana from being a total clown show of a goalkeeper, we'd all be asking for that manager instead.

It's fine that you want him gone for someone more pragmatic, but next season when they spend £100m+ on the squad you'll be complaining that the manager doesn't play a 'modern system' to get the best out of the new players we've signed. I know it's hard for you to take but just accept that his is as good as it gets for now, and it will probably get worse this season, before the summer where things can be addressed en masse.
 
Shark said:
So why on earth did we hire a system specific coach? especially if we knew the funds weren't there to accommodate him to the max. I'm also sure Ruben is a good coach but that has nothing to do with rather he can succeed at this club right now in our current state.
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That's the big question for INEOS. We bring a coach giving him now or never ultimatum and expect to play a system we're not equipped to play, then in his first transfer window we weaken the squad.
 
Roane said:
Hope you don't mind me adding my tuppence here, appreciate the question wasn't addressed to me.

I think the setup of the team is being overplayed. I firmly believe it's the lack of ability/skill (choose another word) of the players on the pitch.

I do think systems need to be flexible, think Park being assigned to man mark etc. However overall I don't think a 3 or 4 at the back is what's our main issue/problem.

Putting aside in house issues such as Sancho or Marcus. Or even the current sitting on contracts with big money and not really focused (In my opinion likes of Casemiro) the players on the pitch are simply not good enough or ready (being polite).

There is so much talk of our defence but I honestly believe our defence isn't the big issue. The biggest issue is ball retention away from our defence. Our goalkeeper and back line keep the ball well. They see the ball a lot. We can be in the opposition half and play the ball back to the keeper.

For me the main issue is our front line. If Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho could keep the ball longer further up the pitch we simply would be a more attractive team and the back line becomes irrelevant to a degree.

Our back line and MF in particular are usually under pressure almost instantly when the ball is played forward. Games against City, Arsenal and Liverpool have shown we can play the ball around our own half for ages. It's playing the ball to our front men which causes us problems because they simply cannot hold on to it.
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Agree with most of what your saying including your key points that i highlighted.

But when you have 5 at the back, inevitably, you are taking one man out of the midfield because right now we dont have the personnel to play the system in the way it was intended.

The key to going 3 at the back is to have two wing backs that are free to get forward - we dont have these.
Two defensive midfielders - ditto.
Two 10s who cover back and help the defensive midfielders, as well as being able to carry the ball forward and join the attack. We maybe have one in Bruno

So when you have two wing backs that play like relatively defensive full backs (because they are) and a 10 in Zirkzee who is not dynamic enough to come back and help out the

DMs, then you are always going to be outnumbered in midfield.

This is why we cant progress the ball from front to back. We are outnumbered because we have one extra man sitting in the back line that should be a passing option. It is why Fulham kept knocking it around us in triangles.
 
Shark said:
Perhaps. However this has been the most damaging 3 months I've ever witnessed at United on and off the pitch, so I'm not sure what that even means anymore. Unless you accept that the entire squad is absolute dog shit and needs to be replaced the way we're performing , along with the results is far beyond unacceptable.
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In terms of finances, and the players switching managers so often, I think it would really bad. Get used to another system, philosphy, manager. It would not be any good in terms of how much player power our squad seems to have.

But I get your point of view as well. It's been truly horrific. It was embarassing to see the celebration of Amorim's early weeks, just because of EtH's departure. It's been very poor.
 
matherto said:
He’s a knobhead and hardly lights the world on fire but we need numbers. We’ve barely got any attackers whatsoever. Should’ve kept Antony too, despite also being shit.

We can barely fill the bench.
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He is sold to Chelsea. He is gone. Forget about Sancho who the Chelsea fans are already fed up of.
 
Plant0x84 said:
It is (was? - doesn’t feel like that idea progressed to be honest) but we aren’t there yet. There is a baseline the squad much match up to before you can simply swap out interchangeable pieces like players or staff.
Footballers should be able to get understand and play in multiple systems. The fact we have such an unadaptable squad tells us about where we are as a club. This group of players needs developing no matter what play style we choose long term.
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It's early but that's the whole idea.

I don't know if we are unadaptable - it's seems highly unlikely we happen to have such a large group of players, many who play/have played other systems, but something is being lost between the training sessions and the pitch.

I think this formation just demands attacking WBs and he won't risk wingers in those roles, other than Amad on occasion and he was generally good there. There has to be some risk from him - you can't be playing what is essentially a flat back 5 and think we're going to play good football or not struggle to score. I guess a hypothetical question but do you think there'd be more patience from fans if he was playing Garnacho/Amad as high WBs and then Mainoo/Erikson or whoever in the 10s? I'm not sure playing FBs as WBs makes a huge difference defensively from what we've seen but having more attack minded players on the pitch will surely have given us more attacking momentum?
 
gaffs said:
If that is the case, i take it back.
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It has been pointed out to me Ashworth was not officially in the job then anyway. However it was rumoured he didn't want Amorim, which might be what cost him his job in the end. He wanted someone who could work with the current squad.
 
U-N-I-T-E-D said:
By hiring a coach that plays a system that not many top coaches play and a system that we'll no doubt have to buy specific players for?

I like Amorim and really hope he does well but it was still a massive risk to bring him in and is apparently the reason Liverpool didn't. It doesn't match a philosophy of interchangeable managers at all.
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The whole point though is, at least I thought that is what was unanimously agreed, was that Ineos aren't wedded to 343, they just really like Amorim. I had not anticipated he would be more stubborn than basically any manager that has come before him but, in a way, I prefer it. You can quickly see if he is good enough/able to coach his formation to a high enough level.
 
Rozay said:
‘Right now’ being the last 2 games since players were injured/suspended I presume - not last 3 months?
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3 weeks since Amad got injured, just after we loaned out Antony and Rashford without even a loan replacement, Mainoo already missed 7 games I think, Martinez done ACL a month ago. Not even mentioning Mount. What changed in the last 2 games?
 
Danny said:
Rooney commented yesterday about if he was a player now would he want to join United the way they are, and players won't unless we overpay them and give them long contracts which is part of the issue now. It won't be easy to just get who we need
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I agree that certain players will have their doubts. However, we signed a top young talent in Yoro last summer. We may sign a top young talent in Quenda this summer. We won't overpay for players in terms of transfer fees or wages. I'm very confident about that. We can build a competitive side without pursuing superstars. A sprinkling of superstar quality may be the final touch, but for now, we can become a good side simply by signing players who fit the correct profiles of what Amorim's system requires.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
It's early but that's the whole idea.

I don't know if we are unadaptable - it's seems highly unlikely we happen to have such a large group of players, many who play/have played other systems, but something is being lost between the training sessions and the pitch.

I think this formation just demands attacking WBs and he won't risk wingers in those roles, other than Amad on occasion and he was generally good there. There has to be some risk from him - you can't be playing what is essentially a flat back 5 and think we're going to play good football or not struggle to score. I guess a hypothetical question but do you think there'd be more patience from fans if he was playing Garnacho/Amad as high WBs and then Mainoo/Erikson or whoever in the 10s? I'm not sure playing FBs as WBs makes a huge difference defensively from what we've seen but having more attack minded players on the pitch will surely have given us more attacking momentum?
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Who are the wingers he could have used as wingbacks against Fulham?

That’s the crazy thing in all of this. People are losing their shit on a game by game basis while ignoring the bananas level of adversity in terms of injuries, red cards, whatever that Amorim is facing in trying to pick a decent team. When he had a more complete squad to pick from he did often use attacking players as wingbacks. Especially off the bench. That tactic worked very well for us in Europe. But none of those players are available right now.
 
JPRouve said:
What if other fans aren't sure that he is a good coach? What if he isn't a good coach?
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Then we can make that call when Amorim is given a fighting chance of proving/disproving that. For now, he hasn't been here long enough to be given a fair crack of the whip. Next season will be far more interesting because from there we can begin to make conclusions.
 
acnumber9 said:
You thought we would be earning less points than we did under Ten Hag? I’m going to call bullshit on that one.

A new manager can’t come in and make things worse admins escape criticism because he said it would be hard.
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You 'calling bullshit' on your chosen point isn't an argument.

At no point did I think Amorim would turn us into what you seem to think we are entitled to be within months, and his 'period of pain' statement confirmed what I actually thought.



Remember the geese said:
I agree that certain players will have their doubts.
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Not signing Tel on Bayern's terms was frustrating, but we desperately need to fight 'United Tax' in negotiation.
 
Remember the geese said:
Then we can make that call when Amorim is given a fighting chance of proving/disproving that. For now, he hasn't been here long enough to be given a fair crack of the whip. Next season will be far more interesting because from there we can begin to make conclusions.
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That's your opinion, in most cases 4 months is a pretty good indication of what a manager can do.
 
Danny said:
Rooney commented yesterday about if he was a player now would he want to join United the way they are, and players won't unless we overpay them and give them long contracts which is part of the issue now. It won't be easy to just get who we need
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I can well believe this at this point. I think it will be a tough summer, both in terms of cash flow and in terms of getting the right players in. We’re going to need to do very well in getting players out.

Part of a coach’s job as I see it is to make a team perform consistently better than the sum of its parts. That isn’t happening for Amorim and next season in my view he’s still likely to have to get a tune out of quite a few of these players currently with us.

Whether he can do that, I think will help dictate whether he’s here for the long haul. I’ve said before I’m now dubious he can but I hope he proves me wrong.

One thing is for certain, assuming he is still around for next season and I still expect at this stage he will be, it needs to look a damn sight better than whatever this is at the moment, and quickly.
 
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