Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[AjaxCunian]

Not that he needs to be sacked today but that's indefensible.

Reading this thread it seems like it isn't, Ten Hag is to be blamed for all of this. He somehow achieved "8th" with a relegation squad.

 

[AjaxCunian]

We were 13th when he arrived and we’re now 14th. That’s the facts. This is despite 1) implementing a new system 2) losing our best attacker in amad 3) losing forward depth in Rashford and Antony 4) only being able to sign one player thus far

the earlier you are in the season the closer all teams’ points are to eachother, so using it as some kind of evidence we were performing better at that point is disingenuous.

Is it disingenuous when we have amassed around 1 point per game in the league under his tenure?

 

[Cassidy]

Reading this thread it seems like it isn't, Ten Hag is to be blamed for all of this. He somehow achieved "8th" with a relegation squad.

We were 13th when he joined, we are now 14th, this is after the squad was weakened in then Jan window. I don't think hes doing a good job, but there isn't really a need to pretend hes done worse than he has by trying to skew metrics

 

[Woziak]

Sorry, but this just isn't acceptable. Accepting a loss by 2 or 3 goals going into a game will never be ok at this club and is always going to be a very tough sell to any fan. If this is the case, then the coach has to be pragmatic. If we're not going to win the game, then don't lose. If you're going to lose, then make it hard for the opponent. Don't go fecking gifting them goals. It has become all too acceptable to lose under successive managers, and it's now the same under Amorim. The players are making the same mistakes every week and aren't having this coached out of them.

We can talk about formations all we want until the cows come home. There isn't one magic formation that will guarantee titles or success, just like there isn't one formation that will doom us. I'm going to leave that and talk about mentality, pragmatism, tenacity, and aggression, all of which are things that Amorim 100% has to also take responsibility for as a coach. He has to instil all of these characteristics in these players just as much as he has to train them to use whichever formation he wants them to play. If we're not going to have any of those characteristics when we face opponents in this league, then it really doesn't matter who plays up front for us or in midfield, or anywhere else. All I saw in that second half was a team that came out and rolled over, with the score at fecking 1-1. Teams now know how to beat us and are able to do so because we don't put up a fight. And the ones that don't know are mostly going down anyway and won't be there next season.

This is the truth, teams now that if the push their team higher up with the full backs pushing our wing backs into a 5 man defence that has so many gaps in it, there’s no way that’s being coached properly.

The high risk passing out from defence, with goalkeepers trying to play chip passes and DM and CM’s trying little flicks to get round the press are football suicide, we don’t operate as a team moving up the pitch collectively and at least 9 to 10 times per game lose the ball far too easily and can’t progress the ball up the pitch. Ruben could resolve this situation by playing 3412 or 352 by getting another player in midfield, especially one who can carry the ball and move the team up the pitch.

If we have 3 Centre backs, then we do not need two Defensive Midfielders, this is crazy?

For Thursday I would change the team to the following; T Heaton or Onana, MdL, Maguire, Yoro, N Mazraoui (RWB), Ugarte, Bruno, Mainoo, Dorgu(LWB), Hojlund, Garnaucho.

Hojlund would play narrow right striker and Garnaucho wider on the left and then we could use Dalot, Shaw, Mount, Amass from the bench.

Lindelof should be dropped completely from the squad.

 

[AjaxCunian]

We were 13th when he joined, we are now 14th, this is after the squad was weakened in then Jan window. I don't think hes doing a good job, but there isn't really a need to pretend hes done worse than he has by trying to skew metrics

What you are saying are facts, what the other poster said are facts too. What you want to read from it, depends on the reader.

No one was expecting Amorim to do this bad, and everyone expected a top half finish. It's been absolutely terrible.

Erik ten Hag needed to be sacked a long time ago, he was doing a terrible job. Everyone expected us to improve under an even semi decent manager.. we somehow got worse in many aspects, let's not sugarcoat it.

 

[groovyalbert]

I like him and hope he is given time but my god - it's going to take something pretty special for him not to go down as one of our worst managers at this point

 

[Cassidy]

What you are saying are facts, what the other poster said are facts too. What you want to read from it, depends on the reader.

No one was expecting Amorim to do this bad, and everyone expected a top half finish. It's been absolutely terrible.

Erik ten Hag needed to be sacked a long time ago, he was doing a terrible job. Everyone expected us to improve under an even semi decent manager.. we somehow got worse in many aspects, let's not sugarcoat it.

Not, somehow, we know exactly how, by weakening an already weak squad in its weakest area (attack) and implementing a new system mid season which was clearly not suited to the squad, and we are certainly not worse in every aspect than under ETH earlier this season.
I didn't expect it to be this bad, but I did expect it to be bad.

 

[stevoc]

And when he asked to come in at the end of the season he was told no..

What would have changed in June?

It would have still been 95% of the same players. So he knew what he was taking on.

 

[RuudTom83]

I really doubt next season will be any different.

I can’t argue with this…the trend of the past 3 years has only been one way, and that’s down!

You mentioned WB but again the options all season have been Dalot, Maz and then you either play Amad as RWB or RW.

It’s not an abundance of riches is it! especially over a 40+ game season.

 

[VP89]

We were 13th when he joined, we are now 14th, this is after the squad was weakened in then Jan window. I don't think hes doing a good job, but there isn't really a need to pretend hes done worse than he has by trying to skew metrics

I'm defending him but we are an absolute mountain away from top 4 compared to when he joined, so let's not pretend that 13th to 14th is a small shift in perception.

 

[stevoc]

United has been playing 4-2-3-1 since Mourinho. In that time our squad of players have consistently failed to produce a high pressing, front foot, possesion controlling style of play. Only LVG since Fergie was on the road fans with the same kinda impatience for Amorim's short regime were all too happy to see the back of him. Even under a master at coaching pressing in Ragnick, little changed! The age old excuse we have always got from the ever unhappy crew is "it's just that manager"/standards have fallen'. Celebraton at a sacking and a manager replacement by the SAME clique of fans. Rinse and repeat!

But what does 4231/433 have to do with that? It was more down to the managers themselves own failures and poor recruitment. If any of them had switched to 352 do you think they'd have had different results?

At what point will they finally admit they havent a clue about what the problem is let alone what the solution can be? Because nothing they EVER recommend let alone their constant impatience works?

No idea mate. Virtually everything has been recommended by various sections of the fan base and has been tried at different stages and for the most part none of it has worked post SAF.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

We were 13th when he arrived and we’re now 14th. That’s the facts. This is despite 1) implementing a new system 2) losing our best attacker in amad 3) losing forward depth in Rashford and Antony 4) only being able to sign one player thus far

the earlier you are in the season the closer all teams’ points are to eachother, so using it as some kind of evidence we were performing better at that point is disingenuous.

We were 13th when he joined, we are now 14th, this is after the squad was weakened in then Jan window. I don't think hes doing a good job, but there isn't really a need to pretend hes done worse than he has by trying to skew metrics

Stop looking at positions.. Early during the season positions are fluid.. check the points garnered. Thats the main pointer.

Even in our 2007-2008 season.
On Match day 4, we were position 10 on the table. But just 5 points behing leaders.
On match day 3 we were number 17 on the table.

It shows as the season starts, positions are fluid, but as the season progresses points garnered + league position starts to merge.


Being position 14 on match day 11 with 4 points behind 4th place proves that. That just 2 wins may take you from 14 to top 4.
But at match day 32, being position 14 means we are 18 points from 4th place. We need 6 straight win with everyone losing to just get top 4.
You see, the gap between us and the 4th place team has expanded massively with Amorim around.

Same arguments can be made.
When Once Arsenal was leading City, with around 5 points. Then City turned it around and won the league with 3 games to go. You see Arsenal changed position from 1 to 2nd only.

But they massively played badly in the 8 games until City overtook them and won the league with 3 games to spare. Circa what has happened with Amorim, the gap between us and the team who were in front of us when he took over is massive.

LIVERPOOL has DOUBLE OUR POINTS. 38 points and 76 points.
When Amorim took over we were 13 points behind Liverpool. Now we are 38 points behind. But in our minds nothing has gone wrong.


But logic with United fans is like water and oil. Doesn't mix.

 

[Cassidy]

I'm defending him but we are an absolute mountain away from top 4 compared to when he joined, so let's not pretend that 13th to 14th is a small shift in perception.

Yes that tends to happen with more games played if you are in the bottom half of the table type of form which we have been all season.

 

[Lash]

I agree they're not these great players that he must be getting something out of, I'm just worried about making transfer decisions around the very specific squad requirements of a manager who in all likelihood will be sacked at some point next season. I guess the alternative is NOT to back him which is twice as mad, but Garnacho and Mainoo are two of the only green shoots we have in the squad and it seems like we'll be turfing them out to back Amorim when its already pretty clear what way its going to go.

That's a valid point. It does feel a little like groundhog day though, we want to play better football and not just on the counter, but can't get rid of players that don't really lend themselves to that (albeit I think Mainoo will still be here and fit, just needs to improve). I think we all want a physical midfield and an attacking unit with some guile, whatever formation we run. Currently, those two aren't showing they can be part of those broad maxims. I have more faith in Mainoo than Garnacho in that regard though.

 

[stepic]

Stop looking at positions.. Early during the season positions are fluid.. check the points garnered. Thats the main pointer.

Even in our 2007-2008 season.
On Match day 4, we were position 10 on the table. But just 5 points behing leaders.
On match day 3 we were number 17 on the table.

It shows as the season starts, positions are fluid, but as the season progresses points garnered + league position starts to merge.


Being position 14 on match day 11 with 4 points behind 4th place proves that. That just 2 wins may take you from 14 to top 4.
But at match day 32, being position 14 means we are 18 points from 4th place. We need 6 straight win with everyone losing to just get top 4.
You see, the gap between us and the 4th place team has expanded massively with Amorim around.

Same arguments can be made.
When Once Arsenal was leading City, with around 5 points. Then City turned it around and won the league with 3 games to go. You see Arsenal changed position from 1 to 2nd only.

But they massively played badly in the 8 games until City overtook them and won the league with 3 games to spare. Circa what has happened with Amorim, the gap between us and the team who were in front of us when he took over is massive.

LIVERPOOL has DOUBLE OUR POINTS. 38 points and 76 points.
When Amorim took over we were 13 points behind Liverpool. Now we are 38 points behind. But in our minds nothing has gone wrong.


But logic with United fans is like water and oil. Doesn't mix.

You’ve just described why your ‘we were just 4 points behind top 4!’ point is meaningless. A whole bunch of teams were close together, that’s the way it works early on in a season.

 

[Cassidy]

Stop looking at positions.. Early during the season positions are fluid.. check the points garnered. Thats the main pointer.

Even in our 2007-2008 season.
On Match day 4, we were position 10 on the table. But just 5 points behing leaders.
On match day 3 we were number 17 on the table.

It shows as the season starts, positions are fluid, but as the season progresses points garnered + league position starts to merge.


Being position 14 on match day 11 with 4 points behind 4th place proves that. That just 2 wins may take you from 14 to top 4.
But at match day 32, being position 14 means we are 18 points from 4th place. We need 6 straight win with everyone losing to just get top 4.
You see, the gap between us and the 4th place team has expanded massively with Amorim around.

Same arguments can be made.
When Once Arsenal was leading City, with around 5 points. Then City turned it around and won the league with 3 games to go. You see Arsenal changed position from 1 to 2nd only.

But they massively played badly in the 8 games until City overtook them and won the league with 3 games to spare. Circa what has happened with Amorim, the gap between us and the team who were in front of us when he took over is massive.

LIVERPOOL has DOUBLE OUR POINTS. 38 points and 76 points.
When Amorim took over we were 13 points behind Liverpool. Now we are 38 points behind. But in our minds nothing has gone wrong.


But logic with United fans is like water and oil. Doesn't mix.

If you have a 4 point gap after 11 games, and every team maintained the same form you will have a 12 point gap by game 33. So yes the gap is going to be bigger after more games played. Which is why position matters, we were in bottom half of the table form when he joined and still are bottom half of the table form hence 13th and 14th. Like I said before hes not been good

 

[AjaxCunian]

Not, somehow, we know exactly how, by weakening an already weak squad in its weakest area (attack) and implementing a new system mid season which was clearly not suited to the squad, and we are certainly not worse in every aspect than under ETH earlier this season.
I didn't expect it to be this bad, but I did expect it to be bad.

I don't know if Antony was of any value to us, and he banished Rashford as his own choice. He decided that he didn't need them, I am not sure if it's then actually a weakening.

It is so interesting, I remember him and many others going on about how defending with 3 is not that different. So many teams defend with 3 in possession/out of possession etc etc.

He emphasised that it was more about principles, and players understanding eachother and understanding his idea. That the system was just a minor detail as many players have played this system before, or even at their NT's etc.

We have created this weird notion here at United, that you can only judge a manager's performance after 100 millions of pounds and transfer windows, and getting in own players etc.

As if we don't constantly see teams inproving radically by managers that are good fits, who find a setup that works for their current squad and use it to build.

 

[stepic]

True but that isnt the point that was being made.. we concede less shots and chances that's true.

Playing 7 defensive and recycling the ball a lot more helps in that regard.

Our xg is inevitably going to be lower when you consider a mid season change of system, the loss of our key forward, removal of a number of other squad forwards, and a further drop off in form by the likes of Hojlund.

If we get the recruitment right that xg figure will inevitably rise next year.

 

[roseguy64]

You are living in cuckoo land. 3 seasons? What has he shown so far to warrant such a backing? I think Amorim knows he is skating on thin ice. He knows he will be eliminated and sacked if the current trajectory continues. No top club with aspiration to win will be given him 3 seasons.

Yep. Amorim himself has said his job is not safe and you have people here saying he's got 3 years when the manager himself has publicly said he's not got that long.

 

[#07]

I don't know if Antony was of any value to us, and he banished Rashford as his own choice. He decided that he didn't need them, I am not sure if it's then actually a weakening.

It is so interesting, I remember him and many others going on about how defending with 3 is not that different. So many teams defend with 3 in possession/out of possession etc etc.

He emphasised that it was more about principles, and players understanding eachother and understanding his idea. That the system was just a minor detail as many players have played this system before, or even at their NT's etc.

We have created this weird notion here at United, that you can only judge a manager's performance after 100 millions of pounds and transfer windows, and getting in own players etc.

As if we don't constantly see teams inproving radically by managers that are good fits, who find a setup that works for their current squad and use it to build.

To some extent its understandable, it gives people a reason to hope that things might get better rather than having to recognise we might well be back at square one.

If the right profiles are brought in, its possible that things could get better. However, honestly, I struggle to believe this is going anywhere.

 

[roseguy64]

I get your point but he's literally had no chance so far. He's not even had one proper window.

Yeah it's unfair on him but managers have been sacked in similar situations before and the team was eventually better for it. No one deserves to get a full season and a pre-season. It's earned or simply a factor of when you were appointed. Tough.

 

[Acquire Me]

We won 15 home games with ETH.
We went away unbeaten by Ole.

We used to win game regularly.

Amorim has not won 2 consecutive league games since November. You dont new players to win 2 consecutive league games.

Yesterday was second game we scored in first half since 1 December 2024. You don't need new players to score in first half.

Our win since Etihad, we have beaten bottom half teams except Fulham.

We do, but that’s my opinion. Too many bad players in our squad. Can’t blame the manager every time you know.

 

[Cassidy]

I don't know if Antony was of any value to us, and he banished Rashford as his own choice. He decided that he didn't need them, I am not sure if it's then actually a weakening.

It is so interesting, I remember him and many others going on about how defending with 3 is not that different. So many teams defend with 3 in possession/out of possession etc etc.

He emphasised that it was more about principles, and players understanding eachother and understanding his idea. That the system was just a minor detail as many players have played this system before, or even at their NT's etc.

We have created this weird notion here at United, that you can only judge a manager's performance after 100 millions of pounds and transfer windows, and getting in own players etc.

As if we don't constantly see teams inproving radically by managers that are good fits, who find a setup that works for their current squad and use it to build.

Yes its not weakening the sqaud attacking options to remove Anotony and Rashford, ok you are welcome to that opinion. Rashford didn't want to be here, so not much he can do about that.

Yes, he said many things, including that we would have a lot of pain this season. Our issues are not really about playing a back 3 vs playing a back 4, the system (he said this) is not the formation.

Also I have already said he (Amorim) isn't doing a good job, and didn't say anything about 100m pounds, I simply said (as I did when ETH was here) that our attacking players are way below the standard required (ETH signed alot of them), and that we lost even more from that group under Amorim so I was not expecting many improvements in the attacking play.

 

[Foritfied]

Are we really gonna do this again?

Remember Rangnick's caretaker season? Players completely downed tools, performances were all over the place, and we just wrote the whole thing off. But here's the thing - we knew Ralf was temporary. Amorim's supposed to be our long-term solution but we're treating him like he's on borrowed time already. The players with the poor mentality are showing themselves they're fit for the exit.

The real test isn't now... It's next season after he gets a proper transfer window and a pre-season. Rangnick exposed all the cultural issues at the club, and Amorim's showing us the same thing - this squad has fundamental problems that won't be fixed by just sacking another manager.

 

[Doracle]

Pereira (Wolves) - 8/2/6 (26 points in 16 games - 61 points over a season)

Moyes (Everton) - 5/6/2 (21 points in 13 games - 61 points over a season)

Amorim (United) - 6/5/10 (23 points in 21 games - 42 points over a season)

No one sane can possibly believe that our squad is worse than those two teams and yet Amorim has been completely outperformed by Moyes and Pereira who took over teams in much worse situations. I’m all for giving him time but I’m perplexed by the narrative that he couldn’t do any better with this squad. Quite clearly he’s failing badly presently and needs to improve results dramatically (even if we sign no one in the summer).

 

[Carl]

What would have changed in June?

It would have still been 95% of the same players. So he knew what he was taking on.

I dunno man, I don't think it's hard to see how transitioning a team's play style over the summer break and during the main transfer window would be easier than during the part of the season where you can't change playing personel or even spend much time on the training pitch.

 

[soapythecat]

I was sick of ETH in the end of his tenure at United. He came across as a sour and unlikeable guy. Amorim is a polar opposite in contrast so immediately we warmed to him.
Football wise he is now showing he is way short of ETH in ability to manage a PL side.
I don’t think a single player has improved under him. Not one. Out key youngsters have gone backwards. Hojlunds output is non existent. Team cohesion and togetherness looks long gone.
No back to back PL wins.
On course for record points and losses.
We look more and more open every game and the only style of play is many men behind the ball with no attacking outlet.
Without question he was the wrong guy to bring in when he came - not his fault - but to persist with him when he clearly is lost in the PL is unforgivable now. Defeat on Thursday and the team will be checking out even more so I doubt we will pick up more than a couple of points in the league.
Before we fire sale a load of decent players under a better system, to buy more Dorgus for a failed system is quite worrying. We all know deep down he won’t last 7-9 games next season before the club panics.
He shouldn’t be picking the side for Thursday if we want to hang on to the last chance we have this season.

 

[VP89]

Yes that tends to happen with more games played if you are in the bottom half of the table type of form which we have been all season.

I dont think the form ten hag was in translated to the points Amorim has got is it? Remember also we sacked him just before he got a very favourable run of fixtures.

 

[Carl]

Pereira (Wolves) - 8/2/6 (26 points in 16 games - 61 points over a season)

Moyes (Everton) - 5/6/2 (21 points in 13 games - 61 points over a season)

Amorim (United) - 6/5/10 (23 points in 21 games - 42 points over a season)

No one sane can possibly believe that our squad is worse than those two teams and yet Amorim has been completely outperformed by Moyes and Pereira who took over teams in much worse situations. I’m all for giving him time but I’m perplexed by the narrative that he couldn’t do any better with this squad. Quite clearly he’s failing badly presently and needs to improve results dramatically (even if we sign no one in the summer).

Neither Moyes or Pereira have tried to implement an entirely different system to the one they were playing before.

Had we brought in another manager that played a 4231 or whatever I don't doubt we'd be higher in the league right now. We've been here before right?

 

[Cassidy]

I dont think the form ten hag was in translated to the points Amorim has got is it? Remember also we sacked him just before he got a very favourable run of fixtures.

At no point did I say it did

 

[SNes]

So he needs a complete rebuild to finish above Bournemouth?

 

[Posh Red]

Pereira (Wolves) - 8/2/6 (26 points in 16 games - 61 points over a season)

Moyes (Everton) - 5/6/2 (21 points in 13 games - 61 points over a season)

Amorim (United) - 6/5/10 (23 points in 21 games - 42 points over a season)

No one sane can possibly believe that our squad is worse than those two teams and yet Amorim has been completely outperformed by Moyes and Pereira who took over teams in much worse situations. I’m all for giving him time but I’m perplexed by the narrative that he couldn’t do any better with this squad. Quite clearly he’s failing badly presently and needs to improve results dramatically (even if we sign no one in the summer).

But that isn’t the narrative. The narrative is that he is trying to implement change. The managers you referred are not doing that to the same extent.

 

[Cassidy]

So he needs a complete rebuild to finish above Bournemouth?

Lets start with top half of the table attacking options for a start maybe?

 

[PSV]

I checked the XPTS for last season: their XPTS by season end STILL had them in 14th at most. They finished 17th. In identical circumstance to ours.

Ours right now put us in 14th. Exactly where we are right now.

This post doesn't have much value. We're comparing manager stints in clubs that have changed manager and you manage to cough up the entire season stats?

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

One thing. Amorim took the team when it was 4 points behind 4th place.
Now the team is 3 point ahead of 17 place

This isn’t the gotcha the Twitter post you copied it from proclaims it to be.

We were still 12th in the League.

 

[Frank White]

you forget the donut midfield under ETH bro?

The gaps are no longer there. The sheer lack of ability of our players to run beyond 60 minutes compared to their Premier league counterparts is very apparent.

Still see it multiple times a game where any competent midfielder will drive straight through are team. Could be a personnel problem but the doughnut is still there.

 

[stevoc]

I dunno man, I don't think it's hard to see how transitioning a team's play style over the summer break and during the main transfer window would be easier than during the part of the season where you can't change playing personel or even spend much time on the training pitch.

Fair enough I'd agree waiting until the summer to change the formation/style of play might have been the wiser move on the clubs part. Ten Hag clearly had to go so an Interim could have been a better short term solution.

But ultimately we will go into next season with the majority of the current players. So Amorim would have had to work with the most of this squad that doesn't suit his style for a good while yet either way.

 

[tomaldinho1]

So are you saying the formation is the no.1 cause for a lack of goals?

It's worth pointing out Palace play with the same formation, broadly speaking, but use very different tactics and have scored more goals whilst conceding less. Less focus on possession, way more aggressive in specific areas and happy to let the opponent have the ball - then they feed a fast but quite limited front three. Basically what we have. The slow possession from the back is what's killing us, the PL has too many teams that will punish you as that recent graph shows in terms of us losing the ball. It's the style not the formation alone.

We have a much better squad than them, even with all the loaned out players.

 

[Frank White]

This isn’t the gotcha the Twitter post you copied it from proclaims it to be.

We were still 12th in the League.

Why does that matter the fact is when he got brought in we wasn't that far off of 5th. Will add context being it was only match day 13 iirc and everyone knew it was going to be rough but jesus not this rough.

 

[Posh Red]

Why does that matter the fact is when he got brought in we wasn't that far off of 5th. Will add context being it was only match day 13 iirc and everyone knew it was going to be rough but jesus not this rough.

Points gaps between teams will naturally grow as more games are played. Surely this doesn’t really need explaining? It’s an extremely basic concept.