I’m not even going to sit here and say I’m convinced he will be a success, because I’m not. But the endless complaining has ruined the discussion. It’s tedious to the extreme.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
For a start the emphasis shouldn’t be simply on one person to score all the goals so whilst Ancelotti wouldn’t make Hojlund necessarily score more goals I’m pretty sure he’d find a way tactically for the squad in general to score more goals.
If we were to get one of Osimhen or Gyokeres in the summer as well as a new keeper, upgrade on Dalot and a dynamic 10 and we’re no better off do we put it on the new signings ? Do we put it on the squad that are still there from what Amorim inherited ?
It’s as if people refuse to admit that it’s simply not working with Amorim and he’s too stubborn tactically to change which unfortunately will be his downfall, we don’t have the money to buy a squad of perfect fits for him and he won’t change tactically to get results that could see us better off and be in a better position to bring in what he’d like.
All we really need is a CF that understands how to play football and deal with pressure. We create chances, we just have amateurs that wilt under pressure up top. I feel for Zirkzee and Hojlund as they're both young, it's why i'm against signing Delap. He'd be excellent as a backup option, but our leading striker needs to be someone who is experienced and can deal with pressure. The signs of progression and improvement are in the team right now, but when Maguire is your best CF option (that really isn't a joke either, it's genuinely the truth) then you know the squad is fecked.
You can't win games if you don't score and unfortunately we've assembled a group of forwards who aren't good at scoring. Whoever signed off on the Zirkzee signing is a proper eejit. The last thing we needed was another young, unproven CF when Hojlund had a very inconsistent season last year and Rashford was clearly a big issue. We then proceed to loan out three of our more experienced forwards and don't bring in a single replacement. We all knew what that meant once the Winter Transfer window shut. I don't really understand why anyone is still surprised we struggle to score goals. Made even worse with Diallo's almost immediate injury.
I'd love the club heirachy to explain their decision making of the last 12 or so months, from the outside looking in they sold out Amorim almost immediately.
I didn’t see the Wolves game today, but the stats look pretty grim. I guess it was to be expected after the relative euphoria of Thursday night and back to our usual PL form.
We are still in a mess. Jury is out on Amorim of course and you would have expected some sort of new manager bounce, even if a very small one. We haven’t seen that and any slight performance improvements simply haven’t translated into results.
It can’t be denied that we have a lot of players stealing a living on the wages they are earning, even some of the ones at the lower end.
One of the main issues is we can’t hit a barn door in most games and the lack of firepower is shocking. Recruitment decisions have been poor and Højlund should not be in a red shirt in my opinion (he has youth on his side and I want him to do well, but showing no signs he can cut it at this level).
Amorim is a likeable chap, but can’t say I’m a huge fan of the system with our current players. We are far too slow, predictable, nowhere near the possession expected, lacking cutting edge and never in control of games. Sometimes I miss the Sir Alex games of ‘you score 3, we’ll score 4’ attitude - crazy games, but at least we had goals in us and were capable of winning games, regardless of what was going on at the back.
Could another manager have done any better this season? Possibly, but I very much doubt we would have been anywhere near the top 8 with this squad. You can’t polish a you know what as the saying goes.
Amorim deserves a full season to be judged on. I can’t see the benefit of changing manager yet again to start the process again. Who would we try next anyway, Mike Bassett?
Let’s hope for some miracle we can pull off the EL. I’m remaining positive at this point and keeping faith in Amorim, based on the current personnel he has at his disposal.
We are still in a mess. Jury is out on Amorim of course and you would have expected some sort of new manager bounce, even if a very small one. We haven’t seen that and any slight performance improvements simply haven’t translated into results.
It can’t be denied that we have a lot of players stealing a living on the wages they are earning, even some of the ones at the lower end.
One of the main issues is we can’t hit a barn door in most games and the lack of firepower is shocking. Recruitment decisions have been poor and Højlund should not be in a red shirt in my opinion (he has youth on his side and I want him to do well, but showing no signs he can cut it at this level).
Amorim is a likeable chap, but can’t say I’m a huge fan of the system with our current players. We are far too slow, predictable, nowhere near the possession expected, lacking cutting edge and never in control of games. Sometimes I miss the Sir Alex games of ‘you score 3, we’ll score 4’ attitude - crazy games, but at least we had goals in us and were capable of winning games, regardless of what was going on at the back.
Could another manager have done any better this season? Possibly, but I very much doubt we would have been anywhere near the top 8 with this squad. You can’t polish a you know what as the saying goes.
Amorim deserves a full season to be judged on. I can’t see the benefit of changing manager yet again to start the process again. Who would we try next anyway, Mike Bassett?
Let’s hope for some miracle we can pull off the EL. I’m remaining positive at this point and keeping faith in Amorim, based on the current personnel he has at his disposal.
He's an inspiration for my marriage, the way he is married to this system is fascinating.
Never even a change mid game, whether its working or not working, 5221 till the end.
I can't imagine him revolutionising our style of play, playing 7 defensive players week in, week out. Should really hope he at least plays another type of RWB next season.
Never even a change mid game, whether its working or not working, 5221 till the end.
I can't imagine him revolutionising our style of play, playing 7 defensive players week in, week out. Should really hope he at least plays another type of RWB next season.
How the feck can you still make excuses for Rashford, give your head a wobble man.
Sticking with him for a whole season if this record continues would be an absolute disaster. Could be relegation form. He will have to go quick if we start how we are ending.
TBF that was a top 4 quality squad that Rangnick had.
He has to do that Europa win or not. He won't survive another season like this no matter what some say nor should he.
I think an aspect of Ruben Amorim's start at the club that people are far too critical of is the fact that he is trying to revamp the way we played. I do agree that it's contributing towards our current struggles. Arnold, Murtough and Ten Hag built a side that was geared towards completely chaotic matches whereby we'd be at our most effective letting our opponents have most of the possession and hitting them on the break. Amorim is trying to instil an entirely different way of playing now, which is far more controlled, and from an attacking perspective the team hasn't really got to grips with the slower build up.
With that being said, this pain is entirely necessary if we are ever to progress as a club. It's honestly why, in spite of the trophies, I consider Ten Hag to be in many respects our most damaging manager post-Ferguson. The level of ineptitude in his decisions was quite astounding. He spent untold amounts of money to build a squad with a horrifically low ceiling, and centred around a fecking batshit crazy style of football which would constantly see us battered by some sides that on paper were nowhere near as good as us.
A lot of people have said that none of our players have improved under Amorim. I simply think this is nonsense. All of the centre backs are playing better now than they ever have before, Casemiro has looked the best he has in years, Zirkzee has gotten much better (albeit not up top), and before his injury Amad was absolutely fantastic in a way we never once saw under Ten Hag. In amongst that Dalot is still playing fairly well, and Bruno hasn't suffered at all either.
In reality, it's a few players right now who are letting us down. Onana and Hojlund are the major culprits. Onana, I think, is just error-prone. We saw it last season under Ten Hag. He made a great start to this season but is unfortunately reverting to type - I don't see it as being a tactical problem. Hojlund is a slightly more tactical issue in a sense that he's quite a one-dimensional striker. He's only really good at running in behind a defence, which lent itself to Ten Hag's system but really doesn't work with Amorim's. In truth, Arnold and Murtough should be tried in the footballing equivalent of The Hague for thinking it was a good idea to spend 70 million on a player who is so limited.
To cut a long story short, I think the changes that Amorim is trying to make to the playing style of the team are long overdue. It was predictable that we'd see some pain in the short-term whilst this happened, since Arnold, Murtough and Ten Hag assembled a complete basket case of a squad that was only really capable of playing effectively on the counter. With that in mind, he has my backing at least until he's had a transfer window to bring in some of his own players.
With that being said, this pain is entirely necessary if we are ever to progress as a club. It's honestly why, in spite of the trophies, I consider Ten Hag to be in many respects our most damaging manager post-Ferguson. The level of ineptitude in his decisions was quite astounding. He spent untold amounts of money to build a squad with a horrifically low ceiling, and centred around a fecking batshit crazy style of football which would constantly see us battered by some sides that on paper were nowhere near as good as us.
A lot of people have said that none of our players have improved under Amorim. I simply think this is nonsense. All of the centre backs are playing better now than they ever have before, Casemiro has looked the best he has in years, Zirkzee has gotten much better (albeit not up top), and before his injury Amad was absolutely fantastic in a way we never once saw under Ten Hag. In amongst that Dalot is still playing fairly well, and Bruno hasn't suffered at all either.
In reality, it's a few players right now who are letting us down. Onana and Hojlund are the major culprits. Onana, I think, is just error-prone. We saw it last season under Ten Hag. He made a great start to this season but is unfortunately reverting to type - I don't see it as being a tactical problem. Hojlund is a slightly more tactical issue in a sense that he's quite a one-dimensional striker. He's only really good at running in behind a defence, which lent itself to Ten Hag's system but really doesn't work with Amorim's. In truth, Arnold and Murtough should be tried in the footballing equivalent of The Hague for thinking it was a good idea to spend 70 million on a player who is so limited.
To cut a long story short, I think the changes that Amorim is trying to make to the playing style of the team are long overdue. It was predictable that we'd see some pain in the short-term whilst this happened, since Arnold, Murtough and Ten Hag assembled a complete basket case of a squad that was only really capable of playing effectively on the counter. With that in mind, he has my backing at least until he's had a transfer window to bring in some of his own players.
Why does everything have to be so dramatic with you? Learn to behave.
I’ll stick with my stance, let him have the summer window and assess at Christmas. The problem is though we need 6/7 players and he’ll be lucky to get half of that. So will this ‘not his players’ narrative continue to excuse him of poor results next season?
Amorin needs time, he needs to get rid of the dead wood and he needs to get his own players in.
We're in transition again, the continuous churning of players and staff will make any club unsteady.
Time has to be given to this lad.
We're in transition again, the continuous churning of players and staff will make any club unsteady.
Time has to be given to this lad.
I reckon he's going to get at least 4-5 first team players in.
He lost today to a manger who joined Wolves looking doomed in December and has pulled off a 55% win record with a much worse squad.
I don't understand how people can't grasp just how poor our attacking options are.
We were done from an attacking point of view the day Amad got injured. It was obvious at the time.
He played a meme setup. Everyone can see we have abandoned EPL to optimize for Europa League.
I agree that the players are very important but I think a manager/head coach is almost equally important. Probably 60/40, players/manager.
I don’t agree that we had good managers, or, good enough managers. Moyes was/is a mid table level coach. Van Gaal and Mourinho were clearly on downward trajectories and their tactics were dated. Ole was unproven, although he probably got the club from a psychological aspect.
Ten Hag was unproven and turned out to be naive and not very flexible, while unwilling to stick to his principals. Amorim seems like a good communicator and has had success with better players in a rigid style, so let’s see. I want him to succeed but the signs aren’t great.
We haven’t really had a coach who ticks all the boxes, a lot like our recruitment of players.
We also lost in the reverse fixture. We failed to score (twice) vs a side conceding 61 goals this season
Our strikers are something else.
I mean sure, but we lost to a pretty bloody brilliantly taken set piece having controlled most of the match and created by far the better scoring chances. And that is despite the fact that the side was considerably weakened with the focus clearly on the Europe League.
Because we are going to buy magic pixie dust in the summer that will turn Højlund into Haaland, and turn Zirkzee into Zidane. We are somewhere between the gambler’s fallacy and the sunk cost fallacy.
It's not a plug and play fix from improving our strikers. How often have you looked at the wing backs after a game and said "wow they really terrorised the opposition and looked dangerous"?
Lyon just lost to relegation threatened team in the league and we conceded 4 against them with 2 when they were one man down. Our attackers are shit seems the unanimous opinion but why is our defence still shit against any team who have half decent attackers? Don't tell me Harvey Barnes and Jacob Murphy are world class attackers.
How often have you looked at any of this squad (in any formation) after a game and said "wow they really terrorised the opposition and looked dangerous"?
I agree with that stance and I feel like 3-4 quality additions could make a big difference, and would be enough that he doesn't have a lot of excuses next season. If we got a striker and two midfielders (DM and #10), the team would improve drastically.
It's fair to question Amorim, but you cannot deny that he is working with very poor material. A leaky goalkeeper and no striker is a recipe for a lot of losses, as we have seen.
My main concern is, that the signings have to be real quality additions from day one. We cannot afford a bunch of Dorgu-type signings that have some potential, but also some big questions marks.
They are pretty defensive biased, still the strikers aren't exactly covering themselves in any glory.
I’m hearing all of the came excuses for Amorim that I did for ETH this time last year.
History is literally repeating itself.
History is literally repeating itself.
People who think if you dropped Gyokeres or Osimhen (or Haaland or Mbappe) into this side they'd score 50 goals are going to be in for a rude awakening if that's the limit of the summer remodelling. No other team in the entire division (possibly the entire world) is apparently so reliant on its lone striker for any sort of attacking output, given every defeat is allegedly the fault of Hojlund or Zirkzee (or Rashford) for not scoring. No mention of the other nine outfield players who, Bruno aside, contribute absolutely bugger all on that front. It must be deeply confusing to watch other teams and see them doing it wrong by having their midfielders and, gasp, even defenders chip in with some goals. To see the scousers edge past one of the worst teams in the league because their right back got a winner. You'd think a system implementing wing backs would see that kind of thing happen more often, but alas...
Yeah our defenders never score any goals
The Wolves manager rocks up from Al Shabab, gets them out of shtuck and has a win percentage of 55%.
Amorim talks a good game, but he’s been an absolute disaster so far. We’re one result away from 17th in the league, let that sink in. A complete bluffer.
Any manager that has anything about them should be able to get something out of a team until he gets more of his own players in. We’re not talking miracles here, but we’ve literally sunk like a stone since he arrived.
Amorim talks a good game, but he’s been an absolute disaster so far. We’re one result away from 17th in the league, let that sink in. A complete bluffer.
Any manager that has anything about them should be able to get something out of a team until he gets more of his own players in. We’re not talking miracles here, but we’ve literally sunk like a stone since he arrived.
Not terrorise anyone, if they dont cross the halfway line
I don't think anyone expect that kind of tally to be honest.
I’m still nervous his system requires too many new players to work and even then we have no guarantee he as a coach actually works.
We need the Europa league but even if we did win it I’d still hope the board have a good think about if he’s the right manager to spend more money on in the summer.
4 at the back allows you to concentrate on midfielders and wingers whilst only needing 1 striker. You might say what’s so different to now? But looking at our winger options we now have to buy players who can operate as 10’s. Our midfielders basically require 2 Ugarte’s whilst the fanbase still dream of Modric 2.0 and we probably don’t have the depth in defence to play out from the back to make this formation effective.
Iroala shifted his formation and I really think Amorim needs to be more flexible if he’s going to get the fans onside as the football ain’t entertaining regardless of if we have strikers who can’t score.
We need the Europa league but even if we did win it I’d still hope the board have a good think about if he’s the right manager to spend more money on in the summer.
4 at the back allows you to concentrate on midfielders and wingers whilst only needing 1 striker. You might say what’s so different to now? But looking at our winger options we now have to buy players who can operate as 10’s. Our midfielders basically require 2 Ugarte’s whilst the fanbase still dream of Modric 2.0 and we probably don’t have the depth in defence to play out from the back to make this formation effective.
Iroala shifted his formation and I really think Amorim needs to be more flexible if he’s going to get the fans onside as the football ain’t entertaining regardless of if we have strikers who can’t score.
From attacking players Bruno. Garnacho also has days he looks very dangerous and creates a lot of chances.
I specifically mentioned the wingbacks given the importance (and uniqueness) to the formation and in terms of it actually being an attacking vs defensive set up. And the reality is that only Amad has actually looked a threat in that position, and Amorim has very often chosen not to play him there.
Don’t worry. The match going fans are still well on side, as are many others.
What Ratcliffe said in his interview with Neville was very true: our top earners in the squad are either in and out of the team or on loan. In that sense our matchday squad is probably mid table level. Casemiro is only now starting to play under Amorim, while Rashford and Sancho are on loan. Mount is in and out.
If we can replace those with 3 or 4 guaranteed first team players Amorim will have much better quality to work with and we can judge him then.
If we can replace those with 3 or 4 guaranteed first team players Amorim will have much better quality to work with and we can judge him then.
I think it's bonkers that people are accepting his bollocks.
He's stepped into a top job, declared "we're going to be shit for a while", and everyone just went "well we better give him time; he said we'd be shit and right enough, we've been shit".
Here's an idea Ruben - how about not being shit instead? Set our flawed but talented squad out in such a way as to optimise what we have?
I liked the guy when he came in. I even told my wife, so excited was I. But he's been a big wet blanket.
He's stepped into a top job, declared "we're going to be shit for a while", and everyone just went "well we better give him time; he said we'd be shit and right enough, we've been shit".
Here's an idea Ruben - how about not being shit instead? Set our flawed but talented squad out in such a way as to optimise what we have?
I liked the guy when he came in. I even told my wife, so excited was I. But he's been a big wet blanket.
This is what you get when you hire a system coach. If you don’t have the players to play their system, you need to buy some. Otherwise you get the ugly displays we’ve seen where we try and play 352 despite clearly being terrible at it. And in his defence, he didn’t want to come in without a pre-season and transfer window, presumably because he knew it would look something like this.
All we can do is back him and see what happens. The way I see it there’s no point in hiring someone, asking them to turn around your oil tanker which also happens to be on fire, then sacking him before he’s even found out where the extinguishers are kept.