Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

Raoul said:
That's what happens when you sack an underperforming manager and hire a new one mid season; who you knew would bring a new system, formation, and tactics with him resulting in the entire team having to scramble to learn a new approach with minimal training and significant injuries.
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Weird it didn’t happen with Tuchel after taking over from Lampard mind.

It doesn’t have to happen, and new managers don’t often immediately make a team much worse, even when taking over mid season. This is contrary to the norm.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Weird it didn’t happen with Tuchel after taking over from Lampard mind.

It doesn’t have to happen, and new managers don’t often immediately make a team much worse, even when taking over mid season. This is contrary to the norm.
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You can prove anything with facts
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Weird it didn’t happen with Tuchel after taking over from Lampard mind.

It doesn’t have to happen, and new managers don’t often immediately make a team much worse, even when taking over mid season. This is contrary to the norm.
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He took over a top 4 side yes ? Not one in total administrative and financial free fall.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
To be fair, going on all reports he wasn’t interested in buying Højlund but wanted a much better and more experienced striker, which is just fecking logical really. Pretending HE bought Højlund and was happy with having an unproven youngster as his main striker isn’t helping the debate.

I hope Amorim doesn’t need 11 perfect player for this to work, cause I doubt he’s getting them.
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I'm sure he would've preferred Kane to Hojlund as well but it was also clear Ten Hag made Mason Mount his key midfield signing the same summer. If he wasn't so keen on him, there may have been more resources to go towards Kane rather than the unproven striker he ended up with.
 
Daydreamer said:
Who's that, then?




I said he's not the sole reason. And then, if you kept reading, I said that he's not even the main reason. And there are plenty of people throwing out overly optimistic hypotheticals of the effect a new striker would have...
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Hang on mate. Let's not start rewriting the past or this can't be a sensible debate.

You were 10th when Arteta took over in the December. You finished 8th. Two points above 10th placed Burnley(managed by Dyche). He barely budged the needle for you in the league. Basically no improvement.

After finishing 8th in his first season you then had your worst ever start to the following season. Beat the first three games incl one to a promoted team and a thrashing from City.

Dec '20, a year after Arteta taking over you were 15th in the table.

At that point don't tell me you thought Arteta was performing in line with the other top managers? I must be imagining all the calls to sack him if so.

By your own logic of judging him against his peers he should have been sacked then.

He's still only won one trophy and that was with Emery's team. ETH won us two. Slot has won the league in his first season. Arteta has barely challenged Slot this season.

Arguably even now he's still underperforming relative to his peers.
 
Marwood said:
Explain how Amorim made Garnacho miss chances.

Because that's Garnacho's problem. His finishing. He's not been short on chances.
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Maybe openly criticising him wasn’t great for his confidence? All I can point to are facts. He was scoring more previously.
 
Marwood said:
Explain how Amorim made Garnacho miss chances.

Because that's Garnacho's problem. His finishing. He's not been short on chances.
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For me, the reason why is because we switched systems and managers. Its not as if Garnacho was CR7 circa 2007 before Amorim arrived, but whenever you disrupt the team by switching managers (in this case appropriately so) its probably going to result in your players having to learn a brand new system, which affects their positioning, decision making and general team chemistry. If you add to that, not having sufficient time to train in the new system, you get less production from our attackers. Garnacho has to his credit picked up the pace in recent months, whereas Hojlund has not been able to adapt at all.
 
NLunited said:
The squad has improved, no question, especially the defense. There are numerous issues however.

A manager doesn‘t always work out or hits a dead end. Look at the Forest manager for example.

Why give Amorim a pass for doing worse? He was hired to improve us.
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The only areas of improvement are areas that youth players have developed. I think generally that the last window with Ugarte and Yoro (who were not Ten Hag targets, but INEOS targets) could be considered decent business. Amad and Mainoo.

The rest of the incomings before Amorim were either busts or squad players, or always injured. Mount, Onana, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Antony, Malacia, Licha. I think the most damning thing was that after spending 600m, we didn’t really get one truly elite player, no world class player. It’s not all Ten Hag’s fault of course, but it’s partially his fault because he had veto power.

It’s ironic that those that were shouting from the rooftops that Ten Hag needed more time to implement his vision are the same ones calling for Amorim to be sacked. Is our league position worse? Yes. From the eye test, are we playing better? Yes. Are we creating more chances? Yes. Do we have more possession generally? Yes. Are we conceding 20-30 shots per game? No.
 
acnumber9 said:
Maybe openly criticising him wasn’t great for his confidence? All I can point to are facts. He was scoring more previously.
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No it's not a fact Amorim has made Garnacho a worse finisher. It's your fairly out there opinion.

He's 20 and got a huge 7 league goals last season. 1 in 6 ECL appearances last season.

This isn't some proven, 26 year old goalscorer whose suddenly dried up with Amorim's arrival.
 
Surely, other clubs have figured out the formula that a world class transformational striker will propel you up the table and competition will be fierce for them.

What happens if we don't land one? Is there no hope for Rasmus et al under Amorim?
 
Raoul said:
That's what happens when you sack an underperforming manager and hire a new one mid season; who you knew would bring a new system, formation, and tactics with him resulting in the entire team having to scramble to learn a new approach with minimal training and significant injuries.



We would definitely be close if not in the top 4 with a player like Gyokeres or Osimhen banging in goals this year. Forest are in 3rd and only have 15 more goals than us at present.
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They also defend better than us so we’d have to improve that too.
 
Marwood said:
No it's not a fact Amorim has made Garnacho a worse finisher. It's your fairly out there opinion.

He's 20 and got a huge 7 league goals last season. 1 in 6 ECL appearances last season.

This isn't some proven, 26 year old goalscorer whose suddenly dried up with Amorim's arrival.
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I never said he made him a worse finisher: I said he scored more goals before November. 8 of his 11 goals this season came before Amorim was appointed. You should improve on your reading comprehension.

Or if you can’t do that at least learn that there’s more to management than picking 11 players.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
433 442, 343 doesn't matter.

We need results and good performances. We just need results
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At this point only EL results are significant. We have to win it. The team has to put everything into it.
Don't care if Amorim starts Maguire as number 9. As long as we win it.

Premier league is just a preseason right now.
 
Raoul said:
For me, the reason why is because we switched systems and managers. Its not as if Garnacho was CR7 circa 2007 before Amorim arrived, but whenever you disrupt the team by switching managers (in this case appropriately so) its probably going to result in your players having to learn a brand new system, which affects their positioning, decision making and general team chemistry. If you add to that, not having sufficient time to train in the new system, you get less production from our attackers. Garnacho has to his credit picked up the pace in recent months, whereas Hojlund has not been able to adapt at all.
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I think he's just a 20 year old going through that maturing phase and during that phase you get massive inconsistency especially with finishing and decision making. It's always been like this with young players except for a handful of truly special talents.

Those suggesting him smashing it over the bar repeatedly is down to Amorim. Yeah they've got it bad.
 
Raoul said:
That's what happens when you sack an underperforming manager and hire a new one mid season; who you knew would bring a new system, formation, and tactics with him resulting in the entire team having to scramble to learn a new approach with minimal training and significant injuries.



We would definitely be close if not in the top 4 with a player like Gyokeres or Osimhen banging in goals this year. Forest are in 3rd and only have 15 more goals than us at present.
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Forest also have the 3rd best defense in the league, it's not all about goals scored and we are piss poor at stopping them as well as piss poor at scoring
 
Raoul said:
Where did Chelsea finish in the season preceding Tuchel's arrival ?
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Does that also mean Amorim inherited a top 8 team? That then had De Ligt, Mazraoui, Yoro, Dorgu, Ugarte and Zirkzee added to it. Did they make us worse?
 
r0663664 said:
Alot of arguing in this post. Regardless Amorim or not Amorim, we need a striker. Whatever is the formation, Hoijund is not a the answer. Any decent who start as many games should have more goals, he should have an ability to score a few goals on his own without assist but we know that ain't happening.
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I don't think anyone is arguing against getting another striker. Even if Hojlund was having a decent season, United cannot be going into a season with 1 CF, it is madness.

It's genuinely hard to know what the strategy will be in summer if we do go for Cunha, because surely that is a big chunk of the budget used up if we don't win the EL.
 
acnumber9 said:
I never said he made him a worse finisher: I said he scored more goals before November. 8 of his 11 goals this season came before Amorim was appointed. You should improve on your reading comprehension.

Or if you can’t do that at least learn that there’s more to management than picking 11 players.
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You literally just said Amorim ruined his confidence when I asked how has he made Garnacho a worse finisher.

That's after bringing up his goal scoring stat since Amorim arrived.

Come on, own it. It's a rubbish point but you made it and can't now be walking it back.
 
I think Licha has been fine if not lived to his price tag, Zirkzee is still too soon to tell since he's starting to show promise and his price tag wasn't that high. Mount, Onana, Hojlund, Antony, Malacia have definitely been let downs, but that's what happens when you don't have a proper system in place to deal with transfers. Ineos seems to at least be trying to fix that with their transfer policy.

I think Amorim was just too soon for this club, his ideals are still forming and he hasn't learned how to properly adapt to his situation because he doesn't have a lot of experience. If he went to another team that was trying to rebuild where he could continue to craft his style and ideals he would be a better manager for us. But instead he's learning at the same time as we're rebuilding, we'll probably struggle again next season unless we make huge changes and I don't think we have the money to make it happen
 
acnumber9 said:
Does that also mean Amorim inherited a top 8 team? That then had De Ligt, Mazraoui, Yoro, Dorgu, Ugarte and Zirkzee added to it. Did they make us worse?
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Yes. If he finished 8th last year, you could say that.

Are we worse, absolutely. But no one expected us to move up the table in year 1 given the circumstances surrounding Amorim's arrival. That is expected to happen next year.
 
Raoul said:
Where did Chelsea finish in the season preceding Tuchel's arrival ?
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4th

9th when Tuchel took over. Completely changed system mid season, went 14 games unbeaten, conceding just 2 in 1260 (proof his 5-3-2 work).

Finished in 4th.
Hired to turn them around, did exactly that.

Amorim:

Last season: 8th

When Amorim took over: 13th
Current: 14th

It can be done (and in less time for Tuchel), not least it’s bloody proof that a manager can change system and at least get a better performance out of them.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
To be fair, if Amorim doesn’t win the Europa League, I think there’s a huge chance the majority of fans will be scathing in their criticism of the decision makers when they eventually sack Amorim in October.

They’ll be calling not firing him after the season a much worse decision than allowing ETH to stay and some crap “hindsight” arguments too. At least ETH had just won an FA Cup.

At this point in time, ETH is light years ahead of Amorim at managing Manchester United, yet ultimately he was a bit wank.

Allowing him such a fecking horrendous start, and let’s be brutally honest here, it’s absolutely MILES worse than even the most pessimistic fans expected, with no redeeming factor other than charisma and trophies in Portugal would be called criminal. ETH was sacked mid season and Amorim hired, to improve us. Instead we have the form (1 point per game) of a team that would usually be in danger of relegation.

This is a squad that shouldn’t be anywhere near relegation form, despite the bizarre mental gymnastics from some fans. It’s crystal clear the change in formation has made our already weak front line, much weaker, and made our defence, even with 2 extra defenders, much weaker also, this had lead to many less victories per game, and many more defeats.

The ONLY silver linings currently are our form in big games, and the Europa League.
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Things can be two things. ETH can be wank and Amorim can be wank as well. At the end of the day, the debate of which one was more wank is immaterial. Who cares? Neither were good enough.

I agree that the league results have been awful. We certainly expected better. When I look at the eye test, I see improvement in patterns of play, chances created, better transitional defense, possession in some cases. Where we have regressed is in finishing (crazy considering how bad we were before) and goalkeeping. Defending set pieces is still as bad as it was before Amorim came in.

Our biggest challenge — and Amorim’s biggest challenge — is the lack of talent in the squad. We have completely fecked up the last 5 windows. There are a few decent players in there, but the majority are either mediocre squad players or utter shite. A couple things need to happen to dig us out of this mess. First, we need to nail the summer transfer window with top talent. Secondly, some of the youth academy buys need to become regulars.
 
Marwood said:
You literally just said Amorim ruined his confidence when I asked how has he made Garnacho a worse finisher.

That's after bringing up his goal scoring stat since Amorim arrived.

Come on, own it. It's a rubbish point but you made it and can't now be walking it back.
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I said that maybe criticising him in public maybe wasn’t great for his confidence. Do you think players can play at top form when they’re not confident? You defy any and all logic. There is literally nothing that you would consider to be attributable to the manager so you can join the ignore list because you’re a waste of time.

It’s got feck all to do with walking anything back. You create a strawman. It’s the same shite you did before when you couldn’t answer a simple question about which of our signings made the squad worse than last year. See ya.
 
Raoul said:
Are we worse, absolutely. But no one expected us to move up the table in year 1 given the circumstances surrounding Amorim's arrival. That is expected to happen next year.
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I absolutely expected improvement. If a manager is sacked mid season for underperforming I expect the solution to perform better, not fecking worse.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
4th

9th when Tuchel took over. Completely changed system mid season, went 14 games unbeaten, conceding just 2 in 1260 (proof his 5-3-2 work).

Finished in 4th.
Hired to turn them around, did exactly that.

Amorim:

Last season: 8th

When Amorim took over: 13th
Current: 14th

It can be done (and in less time for Tuchel), not least it’s bloody proof that a manager can change system and at least get a better performance out of them.
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So it would be fair to say Frank was underperforming despite having a pretty good team to work with, and Tuchel merely picked up the baton of the previous season and proceeded to had a good year.
 
Raoul said:
Yes. If he finished 8th last year, you could say that.

Are we worse, absolutely. But no one expected us to move up the table in year 1 given the circumstances surrounding Amorim's arrival. That is expected to happen next year.
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I absolutely expected him to have the team moving up the table this season. As would everyone. Can you point to a single post when he was first appointed that predicted our form would worsen?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I absolutely expected improvement. If a manager is sacked mid season for underperforming I expect the solution to perform better, not fecking worse.
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Depends on your time horizon. If we're looking at fixing our problems long term, it might warrant forgoing short term satisfaction to eventually get there.
 
acnumber9 said:
I absolutely expected him to have the team moving up the table this season. As would everyone. Can you point to a single post when he was first appointed that predicted our form would worsen?
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Don't think our form has got any worse. ETH left the club with 4 wins in 14, one of which was a 7-0 win against Barnsley. We were freaking out that we'd be out of Europe given he drew the first 3 fixtures and here we are in a semi final.

Our form is pretty much the same with the same glaring issues. Just we look a little bit more prepared and defend better (with a few exceptions).
 
Raoul said:
Depends on your time horizon. If we're looking at fixing our problems long term, it might warrant forgoing short term satisfaction to eventually get there.
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There is absolutely no requirement to get worse short term to improve in the long term.
 
Raoul said:
So it would be fair to say Frank was underperforming despite having a pretty good team to work with, and Tuchel merely picked up the baton of the previous season and proceeded to had a good year.
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Frank had his team 5 places below their finish the previous year, Tuchel came in, completely changed system, got them quickly back up to their previous levels.

Our new manager hasn’t gotten us back up 5 places to 8th, he’s made us fecking worse.

I’m very worried that’s the difference between a top manager and someone who is going to struggle. At the very least I expected him to come in, show he’s a better coach than ETH and get us back to top 8.
 
I know it's "early doors" but do you reckon we are a better team currently than what ETH had us at? I know there's a lot of his shit players still in our rotation but just checking in on this.

I think we're slightly more solid but we cannot buy a goal. And i think ditching Rashy and Antony without any signing was a bad call. Especially as Amad got injured. But i understand ditching them generally.
 
RedSky said:
Don't think our form has got any worse. ETH left the club with 4 wins in 14, one of which was a 7-0 win against Barnsley. We were freaking out that we'd be out of Europe given he drew the first 3 fixtures and here we are in a semi final.

Our form is pretty much the same with the same glaring issues. Just we look a little bit more prepared and defend better (with a few exceptions).
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It has though. Ten Hag averaged 1.22 points per game when he was sacked. Amorim is averaging 1.05.
 
RedSky said:
Don't think our form has got any worse. ETH left the club with 4 wins in 14, one of which was a 7-0 win against Barnsley. We were freaking out that we'd be out of Europe given he drew the first 3 fixtures and here we are in a semi final.

Our form is pretty much the same with the same glaring issues. Just we look a little bit more prepared and defend better (with a few exceptions).
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We defend worse, conceding 1.54 per game compared to 1.05 previously.
And now we get less points per game also.
 
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