Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[tomaldinho1]

Most likely the thinking, also the reason Ten Hag was allowed to carry on last season. But that's 2 seasons in a row we've written off now. I've said it before, I don't think Amorim will be getting much patience from the club (or most fans) next season. He'll need to have this team flying out of the blocks or he'll be in trouble by October. And I don't think that's being unreasonable either, obviously CL qualification will affect out summer window massively and our expectations going into next season. But either way there needs to be vast improvement upon what we've seen.

He only continued as Tuchel turned us down though, then Sir Jim gave that washy idea of 'knowing something was up and wanting to give Erik a chance in the new structure' but the reality is they could not close their top choice and then Berrada obviously caused some rifts with pushing for Amorim, which currently looks a poor decision.

 

[Shark]

I cannot believe people are still bringing up the ‘x amount of points off top four’ argument. It’s so daft and it’s been explained so many times.

Why, it doesn't matter? Will we just invent something else instead and say he was 10 points off, and never had any chance of reigniting our season?

 

[Posh Red]

Why, it doesn't matter? Will we just invent something else instead and say he was 10 points off, and never had any chance of reigniting our season?

We could be tenth right now and nearly three times as many points away from top four as we were when he took over. I take it that would also represent regression in the league, then?

 

[Shark]

We could be tenth right now and nearly three times as many points away from top four as we were when he took over. I take it that would also represent regression in the league, then?

The simple point is that when a manager takes over a club, is the league season salvageable or not. In Rubens case, if he hit the ground running it was salvageable. Unfortunately though results became worse beyond anyone's imagination.

 

[Giggsy13]

Only a few points off the top four though. Think it was maybe 5 or 6 but would have to double check.

Top 4/5 was definitely attainable given the quality of the league this season. Not many standout teams due to parity. If we had a bit of new manager bounce we’d at least have a chance at qualifying for the Europa League or Conference places. We’ve literally seen none of that under Amorim, it’s been an absolute disgrace.

 

[stevoc]

He only continued as Tuchel turned us down though, then Sir Jim gave that washy idea of 'knowing something was up and wanting to give Erik a chance in the new structure' but the reality is they could not close their top choice and then Berrada obviously caused some rifts with pushing for Amorim, which currently looks a poor decision.

I don't believe that's the only reason they kept Ten Hag on though or even the main one. Tuchel was still available in October yet they didn't hire him then so I'm not convinced they were ever that hot on Tuchel.

But regardless we've wasted 2 season now, things have to start improving dramatically next season or there will need to be a change in manager. You can't have 2nd or 3rd highest wage bill in the Premier League but be flirting with relegation.

 

[Giggsy13]

I cannot believe people are still bringing up the ‘x amount of points off top four’ argument. It’s so daft and it’s been explained so many times.

What’s there to explain? It’s a numbers game and objectively true. We were closer to top 4 and the European places before Amorim took over. We’re now closer to relegation and would be under threat if it was a different season.

 

[Posh Red]

The simple point is that when a manager takes over a club, is the league season salvageable or not. In Rubens case, if he hit the ground running it was salvageable. Unfortunately though results became worse beyond anyone's imagination.

Or I could easily spin it as:

- Took over a team in free fall during the season
- Lost multiple first team forwards to loans mid season
- Was only provided with one reinforcement after this, which was a defender
- Pretty much maintained league position
- Took the team to a European cup final

Or, we could just accept it’s a difficult situation and expectations should be seriously tempered, and wait until there are some reasonable conditions to judge the manager under.

 

[Posh Red]

What’s there to explain? It’s a numbers game and objectively true. We were closer to top 4 and the European places before Amorim took over. We’re now closer to relegation and would be under threat if it was a different season.

Because using points totals to compare the situation then and now is totally illogical, for reasons explained many times over already in this thread.

 

[John XII]

Or, we could just accept it’s a difficult situation and expectations should be seriously tempered, and wait until there are some reasonable conditions to judge the manager under.

That would seem the sensible thing to do but apparently not.

 

[Shark]

That would seem the sensible thing to do but apparently not.

Yes, because everything this club has done for over a decade has been perfectly sensible, and all of us lowly fans have been wrong about everything. Was perfectly sensible to keep ETH on after the cup final most recently too.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Let's just keep sacking managers in space of months now, because that kind of chaos surely must be perfect solution to existing chaos.

Do we even know who's available to come and actually fit the club, or is it just another spin of the wheel, and hoping for best ?

 

[CM]

Only a few points off the top four though. Think it was maybe 5 or 6 but would have to double check.

Pretty sure it was only 4

 

[RedRocket9908]

That would seem the sensible thing to do but apparently not.

The sensible thing to do is let him go in the summer and appoint someone with a system that fits our current squad as we simply cant afford to gamble another 200m on a system that isnt working

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Or I could easily spin it as:

- Took over a team in free fall during the season
- Lost multiple first team forwards to loans mid season
- Was only provided with one reinforcement after this, which was a defender
- Pretty much maintained league position
- Took the team to a European cup final

Or, we could just accept it’s a difficult situation and expectations should be seriously tempered, and wait until there are some reasonable conditions to judge the manager under.

Only stupid people will not take this into account. Just moan on an online forum because you CAN.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I don't believe that's the only reason they kept Ten Hag on though or even the main one. Tuchel was still available in October yet they didn't hire him then so I'm not convinced they were ever that hot on Tuchel.

But regardless we've wasted 2 season now, things have to start improving dramatically next season or there will need to be a change in manager. You can't have 2nd or 3rd highest wage bill in the Premier League but be flirting with relegation.

Pretty widely accepted he said no to us? Whether because he wanted more control of transfers (as was the main rumour) or just didn't fancy it, we were after him so there's not really much debate about being that 'hot' on him.

Hard to define 'wasting' a season, should we not have sacked Mou when it was clear he downed tools third season, should Ole have ever got the perm job, should Ragnick? We might end up winning the Europa this season and finishing 17th, it will be memorable if nothing else! It's only at United there seems such fear at changing head coach though, the reality is we should just keep trying the best available options until one comes along who is good enough. If Amorim wins Europa, give him pre season and see what he can do. Then bring someone else in if he's not good enough but no more of these excuses about needing time and a squad overhaul, let's just see a decently coached team within 10 games or so and some entertaining footy. Then build off that.

 

[The Stain]

A return of only 6 wins from 24 games and no real improvement is simply not good enough to justify keeping him for next season and allowing him to dpend big money in the summer, I think INEOS have some big decisions to make this summer.

Everyone could see ten Hag wasn't working out yet they kept him on anyway and basically ruined this whole season. Ashworth leaving under weird circumstances. I have no confidence in them so far, their decisions have been awful. I would think the only way Amorim stays is winning the Europa League but honestly i think he will still be here next season even if we fail to.

 

[John XII]

The sensible thing to do is let him go in the summer and appoint someone with a system that fits our current squad as we simply cant afford to gamble another 200m on a system that isnt working

I really didn't like the system when he first arrived, particularly seeing 5 defenders playing in a straight line. That's largely stopped and we're beginning to look a bit more coherent. A functioning attack will make a world of difference to how teams play against us.

 

[Leftback99]

The sensible thing to do is let him go in the summer and appoint someone with a system that fits our current squad as we simply cant afford to gamble another 200m on a system that isnt working

Which system fits our current squad?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Which system fits our current squad?

Garna and Amad, our two brightest prospects appear most suited to more traditional front 3.
Højlund performed better in that system too.

Our full backs look better as full backs than wingers.

Maguire looks better in a 3, always has for England too. This system looks to suit Cas better also.
Think Yoro and Heaven can probably be as good in both, De Ligt and Ugarte also.

 

[Giggsy13]

Because using points totals to compare the situation then and now is totally illogical, for reasons explained many times over already in this thread.

Wrong, it’s mental gymnastics to gloss over the Amorim and INEOS disaster.

 

[Leftback99]

Garna and Amad, our two brightest prospects appear most suited to more traditional front 3.
Højlund performed better in that system too.

Our full backs look better as full backs than wingers.

Maguire looks better in a 3, always has for England too. This system looks to suit Cas better also.
Think Yoro and Heaven can probably be as good in both, De Ligt and Ugarte also.

Not much evidence there to convince me either way. You don't build a system around what's best for Dalot and Hojlund.

We just need better players whatever the system, whoever the manager.

 

[FriedClams]

If we don't win the Europa league, should we actually sack him? i don't think we will, but when you look at how bad this formation does in the PL....

 

[tomaldinho1]

Which system fits our current squad?

The formation that suits basically every team in the league, a variation of 433.

It also make transfers much easier, WBs are hard to find, 10s are hard to find (Amorim 10's not normal 10's), outside CBs are harder to recruit. It also make bedding in the youth much easier as they don't go and play roles they don't train like Amass and Fredericson.

 

[hellhunter]

If we don't win the Europa league, should we actually sack him? i don't think we will, but when you look at how bad this formation does in the PL....

Th decision to sack or keep shouldn't boil down to a single cup ideally, not like with ETH.

That being said, I don't see how his position is tenable if he doesn't win the EL and finishes 15.-17.

 

[stevoc]

Or I could easily spin it as:

- Took over a team in free fall during the season
- Lost multiple first team forwards to loans mid season
- Was only provided with one reinforcement after this, which was a defender
- Pretty much maintained league position
- Took the team to a European cup final

Or, we could just accept it’s a difficult situation and expectations should be seriously tempered, and wait until there are some reasonable conditions to judge the manager under.

While you admit this is spin. Amorim barely played Rashford and Antony. In fact he froze the former out completely. He was more than likely happy for both to be loaned out.

 

[Leftback99]

The formation that suits basically every team in the league, a variation of 433.

It also make transfers much easier, WBs are hard to find, 10s are hard to find (Amorim 10's not normal 10's), outside CBs are harder to recruit. It also make bedding in the youth much easier as they don't go and play roles they don't train like Amass and Fredericson.

We need better players for any formation so it doesn't really matter. I've seen this lot in a 4-3-3, they were dreadful.

 

[Posh Red]

Wrong, it’s mental gymnastics to gloss over the Amorim and INEOS disaster.

Facepalm

 

[Ali Dia]

If we don't win the Europa league, should we actually sack him? i don't think we will, but when you look at how bad this formation does in the PL....

I like him but if he doesn't win the EL it's easily a sackable run he's on. He won't be sacked but he won't have very much time next season. He'll buy himself a lot of time if he wins it and gets out of the CL group even if the league is shite again

 

[Posh Red]

While you admit this is spin. Amorim barely played Rashford and Antony. In fact he froze the former out completely. He was more than likely happy for both to be loaned out.

Usually if a team has a set of forwards and loses two of them because they aren’t good enough or don’t want to be there anymore, it would be sensible to accept that, if they are not replaced, then the manager is seriously hamstrung. Do you think that is a reasonable line of thinking?

 

[Olecurls99]

If we don't win the Europa league, should we actually sack him? i don't think we will, but when you look at how bad this formation does in the PL....

No

 

[stevoc]

Pretty widely accepted he said no to us? Whether because he wanted more control of transfers (as was the main rumour) or just didn't fancy it, we were after him so there's not really much debate about being that 'hot' on him.

Which I am not disputing. All I am saying is Tuchel was still available for months after the summer, right up until right before Ten Hag was sacked and the club didn't go back into for him. So they certainly weren't ever that hot on him to the point where they'd compromise the structure they had in mind or to the pint where it was a straight 50/50 between Ten Hag or Tuchel. I'm not saying they weren't interested last summer or that Tuchel didn't say no. What I am saying is I doubt his rejection alone was what prompted the decision to keep Ten Hag.

Hard to define 'wasting' a season, should we not have sacked Mou when it was clear he downed tools third season, should Ole have ever got the perm job, should Ragnick? We might end up winning the Europa this season and finishing 17th, it will be memorable if nothing else! It's only at United there seems such fear at changing head coach though, the reality is we should just keep trying the best available options until one comes along who is good enough. If Amorim wins Europa, give him pre season and see what he can do. Then bring someone else in if he's not good enough but no more of these excuses about needing time and a squad overhaul, let's just see a decently coached team within 10 games or so and some entertaining footy. Then build off that.

I don't disagree with any of that mate, that's pretty much how I view things.

 

[tomaldinho1]

We need better players for any formation so it doesn't really matter. I've seen this lot in a 4-3-3, they were dreadful.

To what end?
Agreed we need better players to return to the top 4/5
Disagree we need better players to see a better return in the league than we've seen by quite some margin.

 

[flameinthesun]

Because using points totals to compare the situation then and now is totally illogical, for reasons explained many times over already in this thread.

How about average points per game? percentage wins? goals scored? goals conceded? Pretty sure in every metric Amorim has done worse when compared to any post Sir Alex manager's worst season let alone Ten Hag's spell at the beginning of this season. How about comparing to Ole as he took over mid season as well no? You fire a manager because he is underperforming and you hire a replacement because you feel he will do a better job. This isn't complicated, we do not need to make excuses for Amorim, he himself knows he is doing an appaling job.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Usually if a team has a set of forwards and loses two of them because they aren’t good enough or don’t want to be there anymore, it would be sensible to accept that, if they are not replaced, then the manager is seriously hamstrung. Do you think that is a reasonable line of thinking?

To play devils advocate here… Rashford had LVG, Mou, Ole, Ragnick, ETH and he ”wanted to be here” under all of them.

I don’t know the workings of Rashford nor Amorim’s brain here but Amorim clearly froze him out and gave him not much choice but to find a new club.

Antony was barely given a chance.

It’s a tough one to have a tonne of sympathy for the manager to be honest, loaning Antony I thought especially was a daft idea.

I’ll give Amorim credit for getting rid of players once Amorim (hopefully) shows me he was right and that his team is better for it.

 

[Posh Red]

To play devils advocate here… Rashford had LVG, Mou, Ole, Ragnick, ETH and he ”wanted to be here” under all of them.

I don’t know the workings of Rashford nor Amorim’s brain here but Amorim clearly froze him out and gave him not much choice but to find a new club.

Antony was barely given a chance.

It’s a tough one to have a tonne of sympathy for the manager to be honest, loaning Antony I thought especially was a daft idea.

He was dropped for a single game and then did an interview saying he wanted to leave immediately afterward.

 

[Ali Dia]

We need better players for any formation so it doesn't really matter. I've seen this lot in a 4-3-3, they were dreadful.

When several players from mid table opposition like wolves Bournemouth Brighton Brentford Forest would be starters here and they regularly school us. We have collected too many midtable players

 

[FriedClams]

No

There will likely be less money to spend if we don't win it, so it could easily lead to another frustrating season as I don't think we could sign enough players to fill the holes we desperately need to in our formation?

 

[stevoc]

Usually if a team has a set of forwards and loses two of them because they aren’t good enough or don’t want to be there anymore, it would be sensible to accept that, if they are not replaced, then the manager is seriously hamstrung. Do you think that is a reasonable line of thinking?

It's how you frame the situation though. I think Amorim wanted one or both out as soon as possible. In the case of Rashford certainly.

But a manager can't arrive at a club, freeze out the highest scorer in the clubs current squad. Proceed to loan him out despite knowing the club cannot afford to replace him in the January window. Then later complain about his attack being hamstrung. I'm not saying Amroim has said that to my knowledge, but I keep seeing it being used as an excuse on here. I'm ok with Amorim not wanting Rashford because of his atitude and getting rid of him, but you can't have your cake and eat it. He willingly chose to limit his attacking options and has to take the responsibility for that decision.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Which I am not disputing. All I am saying is Tuchel was still available for months after the summer, right up until right before Ten Hag was sacked and the club didn't go back into for him. So they certainly weren't ever that hot on him to the point where they'd compromise the structure they had in mind or to the pint where it was a straight 50/50 between Ten Hag or Tuchel. I'm not saying they weren't interested last summer or that Tuchel didn't say no. What I am saying is I doubt his rejection alone was what prompted the decision to keep Ten Hag.



I don't disagree with any of that mate, that's pretty much how I view things.

Ok got it.

I actually rate that Ineos didn't fold and let Tuchel get more control (if that was true), the issue I now have it seems from the outside that Berrada has now just decided he will run the ship and so, even though he's surely much more clued up than Woody, we're back to the single point of failure again. I think they just had no other options that Berrada liked, as Frank and Howe were linked strongly through Ashworth as builders i.e. maybe not the sexiest names but people who had built small/poorly funded clubs through developing players.

It's sad he joined mid season, I remember making this point to someone back in Nov, the issue Amorim will have (though I had no idea it would be this bad) is that once you start to lose games the perception changes and I'm not sure anyone has ever really shaken that off in modern football. Already his future is discussed in the mainstream media, already people are saying ' by now' we should see more etc. Once the media went for Ole they did not stop, same for ETH, same for all of them. if he can shake that off and almost start afresh next season , it will be a miracle.