Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

You guys are getting far too hung up on the formation discussion. You're also getting too hung up on the need for 'improvement' from Amorim. Obviously yes, he needs to improve us, in that improvement is the path to success. But if you're argument is that he should shift to a back 4 so we can see some improvement, then you're missing the point of what the leadership are doing.

He shifts to a back 4, and maybe climbs a couple places. Great. Are you satisfied? No, we're supposed to be going for the league. Amorim has not been tasked with taking this team from 14th to 7th. He has been tasked with building a new team that can win the league.

Ineos come in and they want to take United to 'where it should be', so they decide they need a best in class football operation, the likes of the best teams in the world. Best in class looks like building a football operation that supports a good coach with quality players that enables his system. So they pick a coach that has shown all the qualities they require - proven winner, exciting football, youth development and so on. So they go to him and they ask if he can do what he did over there, here. And they know that building such a team will take time, especially with so much work to be done in building a top level squad, such tight financial restrictions, and such a negative amount of press existing around the club. So they won't fire him this summer. He will get time to do the job he was brought it to do, which is what he has shown he can do elsewhere - a back 5 team, full of youth, that forces transitions and attacks the space.

Here's what they didn't ask him to do. They didn't ask him to work with what he has to ensure we stay in the premier league. He's not Moyes and we're not Everton. He's not Pereira and we're not Wolves. He's not been asked to improve the squad he has, keep their heads above water and if you make the conference league that's the best you could hope for. He is here to win the league. And that requires a plan, it requires time, it requires patience.

Disagree with the plan if you wish, but at least try and understand it. The summer will be really exciting, new players, new youth, new energy, all following an actual plan executed with a degree of competency we haven't seen since Fergie left. Try and enjoy it.
 
Snormac said:
The summer will be really exciting, new players, new youth, new energy, all following an actual plan executed with a degree of competency we haven't seen since Fergie left. Try and enjoy it.
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And how do you know all this for a fact?
 
erikcred said:
And how do you know all this for a fact?
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Sounds a bit like when I used to hear ‘Trust me Ten Hag will get better will a ball playing goalkeeper, nah trust me Ten Hag will get better with the new owners, nah trust me Amorim will get better with more training sessions’ etc
 
romufc said:
Most players are used to playing with 4 at the back but we are talking about top players here, they should be able to play any formation.

Its got to do with tactics and coaching more than formations for me... the same players play international football with different formations.

I recall when Amorim came in and Hojlund scored... he said that he is used to playing this formation at Atalanta but clearly is still struggling.

Bruno has played 3 4-3 for Portugal, so has all the English players.

Lets just see what happens in the close season in terms of getting to terms with playing.

We will know very quickly into next season if this will work or not.
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I'd largely agree mate, as I've said I don't think our current struggles is solely down to a formation change. I think injuries, lack of quality attackers with players loaned and rock bottom confidence are as much to blame as anything else.
 
Snormac said:
Ineos come in and they want to take United to 'where it should be', so they decide they need a best in class football operation, the likes of the best teams in the world. Best in class looks like building a football operation that supports a good coach with quality players that enables his system. So they pick a coach that has shown all the qualities they require - proven winner, exciting football, youth development and so on…
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Snormac said:
So they won't fire him this summer. He will get time to do the job he was brought it to do, which is what he has shown he can do elsewhere - a back 5 team, full of youth, that forces transitions and attacks the space.
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Call me a cynic, but if we’re lauding the Ineos plan to “hire the best in class,” then that prompts two immediate responses:
1/They described Ashworth as the best in class too… and then binned him after five months. So that’s hardly evidence that Amorim won’t be sacked this summer.
2/Ineos could have signed Amorim last summer. It would have been cheaper (not least in because ETH’s contract wouldn’t have been extended), recruitment could have been designed around the new manager, and it would have given him a full summer to get the team ready for a playing overhaul. So either Amorim isn’t best in class, Ineos aren’t very good at identifying best in class - or both.
 
RonB said:
Call me a cynic, but if we’re lauding the Ineos plan to “hire the best in class,” then that prompts two immediate responses:
1/They described Ashworth as the best in class too… and then binned him after five months. So that’s hardly evidence that Amorim won’t be sacked this summer.
2/Ineos could have signed Amorim last summer. It would have been cheaper (not least in because ETH’s contract wouldn’t have been extended), recruitment could have been designed around the new manager, and it would have given him a full summer to get the team ready for a playing overhaul. So either Amorim isn’t best in class, Ineos aren’t very good at identifying best in class - or both.
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Yes, those are the only two plausible scenarios in a vacuum with no room for anymore context.
 
TrivelaDeBruno said:
Yes, those are the only two plausible scenarios in a vacuum with no room for anymore context.
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You’re welcome to offer an alternative scenario.
However…
Ineos had five months between agreeing to buy a chunk of the club and the end of the season - that’s long enough to decide if they wanted to keep ETH, and it’s long enough to identify who was the “best in class” if they wanted a change.
The club gained little or nothing by appointing Amorim mid-season, and at the very least they introduced a number of (largely unnecessary) complications by failing to simply install him in the summer.
There’s no reason to think Amorim wouldn’t have wanted to come in May, but changed his mind when approached mid-season.
And Ineos have shown that they can make much-lauded long-plotted appointments of “best in class” non-playing staff, only to stuff it up.
So I’m inclined to apply Occam’s razor.
Feel free to think that Amorim is the best in class. Feel free to avoid such silly phrases but nonetheless think he’s doing a good job and should continue to be backed. You can think either of these things but still see that Ineos made a right pig’s ear of his appointment.
 
Giggsy13 said:
So did Inter play 4 at the back before Inzaghi took over?
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No. Because he replaced Conte who also played back 3. But Inzaghi's way of playing the formation is night and day compared to Conte's. Before Conte, they played back 4 with Spalletti.
 
RonB said:
You’re welcome to offer an alternative scenario.
However…
Ineos had five months between agreeing to buy a chunk of the club and the end of the season - that’s long enough to decide if they wanted to keep ETH, and it’s long enough to identify who was the “best in class” if they wanted a change.
The club gained little or nothing by appointing Amorim mid-season, and at the very least they introduced a number of (largely unnecessary) complications by failing to simply install him in the summer.
There’s no reason to think Amorim wouldn’t have wanted to come in May, but changed his mind when approached mid-season.
And Ineos have shown that they can make much-lauded long-plotted appointments of “best in class” non-playing staff, only to stuff it up.
So I’m inclined to apply Occam’s razor.
Feel free to think that Amorim is the best in class. Feel free to avoid such silly phrases but nonetheless think he’s doing a good job and should continue to be backed. You can think either of these things but still see that Ineos made a right pig’s ear of his appointment.
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I mean yeah, it was a bad decision to extend ETH on the back of an FA Cup win. That much is fairly obvious.
 
RonB said:
You’re welcome to offer an alternative scenario.
However…
Ineos had five months between agreeing to buy a chunk of the club and the end of the season - that’s long enough to decide if they wanted to keep ETH, and it’s long enough to identify who was the “best in class” if they wanted a change.
The club gained little or nothing by appointing Amorim mid-season, and at the very least they introduced a number of (largely unnecessary) complications by failing to simply install him in the summer.
There’s no reason to think Amorim wouldn’t have wanted to come in May, but changed his mind when approached mid-season.
And Ineos have shown that they can make much-lauded long-plotted appointments of “best in class” non-playing staff, only to stuff it up.
So I’m inclined to apply Occam’s razor.
Feel free to think that Amorim is the best in class. Feel free to avoid such silly phrases but nonetheless think he’s doing a good job and should continue to be backed. You can think either of these things but still see that Ineos made a right pig’s ear of his appointment.
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This is a little ignorant and somewhat premature:

1. They've shipped out one of the biggest cultural and economic problems in Rashford
2. They've had a successful loan of Antony who will likely fetch 30-40m this summer

Both of which, EtH would have kept.

We might win the Europa League and get CL qualification alongside 100m in extra revenue.
 
stepic said:
I mean yeah, it was a bad decision to extend ETH on the back of an FA Cup win. That much is fairly obvious.
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Easy to say in hindsight but the (slim) majority of the Caf wanted him to stay on after than epic win.
 
cpresc said:
This is a little ignorant and somewhat premature:

1. They've shipped out one of the biggest cultural and economic problems in Rashford
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Now that's premature, Rashford is still a Man United economic problem.
His injury after a brief Villa spell is not improving the chance of selling him.
 
Smores said:
None of the adjustments I listed are minor, they're fundamental to Sporting's attacking play. If you're saying he hasn't adjusted from how he initially set us up then sure it's minor tweaks but I don't see the relevance given your argument is stubbornness to his approach. He's identified our limitations and adjusted his approach already, he knows we need to move from A to B so he isn't going to look for approach C for a short interim period.

The squad will be learning the framework and we've already seen moments in games that show that. Next season with a full preseason and reinforcements we'll expect to see a new approach and results from it. This is what you expect from a system manager brought in mid season.
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Pretty clear that’s exactly what I was saying. Nothing he has changed tactically can be viewed as significant aside from using fullbacks which is pure pragmatism. Drop another player into midfield or try two up top. Something. I don’t really care about the particulars per se as much as the lack of flexibility. For me it’s concerning.
 
UnofficialDevil said:


We are the worst team since I arrived.
Is there any reason he’s saying this?
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If he keeps saying it I guess journos can't keep writing the same headline? I hope he keeps saying it ironically when we're good again at every presser in answer to every question.
 
The thing that bugs me on here is when you say a manager isn't good enough= you're not a good fan.

That's the usual sentiment in these threads. For example, if that's the case, anyone who thought Ten Hag should have stayed after the FA Cup final was a good fan. But they were wrong.

I like Ruben as a person, comes across really well in interviews. But I don't care about interviews. I care about results and performances. And I don't see any improvement, I've seen enough to know he's not taking us forward.

Too defensive, not enough creativity, not enough goals. Yes he doesn't have great players but they're better than what we've shown. I genuinely hope I'm wrong but I don't see it with him.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I would hope so, yes.

They hired him. We have to believe they did so with a plan (a realistic plan for the short and long term) in mind.

If they just pulled another Woodward (or Arnold) - that is, hire someone as "manager", hoping said "manager" just happens to be grand...well, we all know how that is likely to end.
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Sure. We have to hope but it’s not as if it’s unreasonable to still lack faith in the club from a decision-making/planning perspective. The transition from Ten Hag to Amorim highlights this.
 
cpresc said:
Easy to say in hindsight but the (slim) majority of the Caf wanted him to stay on after than epic win.
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Not easy to say with hindsight, it was very clear and obvious to those who weren’t a) illogical manager backers and b) blinded by the emotion of a great one off game.

There was only one way keeping Ten Hag was gonna go and it as extremely obvious in the moment.
 
EtH said:
Pretty clear that’s exactly what I was saying. Nothing he has changed tactically can be viewed as significant aside from using fullbacks which is pure pragmatism. Drop another player into midfield or try two up top. Something. I don’t really care about the particulars per se as much as the lack of flexibility. For me it’s concerning.
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Yeah because we have such a wealth of forwards to choose from, right? Let’s drop one of our 10s for the very obviously not ready yet Obi. For reasons.

As for your drop a player back to midfield idea, have you missed all those games Bruno has played there?
 
UnofficialDevil said:


We are the worst team since I arrived.
Is there any reason he’s saying this?
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You ever watched 8 Mile?

“I am white, I am a fecking bum,
I do live in a trailer with my mom…”

Is that sort of approach. Take away their headlines/punchlines and leave them with nothing. He’s showing he’s self aware and knows how bad it is. This isn’t the finished article, but he knows this himself and therefore he can do something about it.
 
Ole'sgunnarwin said:
The thing that bugs me on here is when you say a manager isn't good enough= you're not a good fan.

That's the usual sentiment in these threads. For example, if that's the case, anyone who thought Ten Hag should have stayed after the FA Cup final was a good fan. But they were wrong.
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No, it just makes you an impatient fan.

Which doesn’t apply to ETH given by the time he was fired he had been given 3 full summer windows. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
 
Snormac said:
You guys are getting far too hung up on the formation discussion. You're also getting too hung up on the need for 'improvement' from Amorim. Obviously yes, he needs to improve us, in that improvement is the path to success. But if you're argument is that he should shift to a back 4 so we can see some improvement, then you're missing the point of what the leadership are doing.

He shifts to a back 4, and maybe climbs a couple places. Great. Are you satisfied? No, we're supposed to be going for the league. Amorim has not been tasked with taking this team from 14th to 7th. He has been tasked with building a new team that can win the league.

Ineos come in and they want to take United to 'where it should be', so they decide they need a best in class football operation, the likes of the best teams in the world. Best in class looks like building a football operation that supports a good coach with quality players that enables his system. So they pick a coach that has shown all the qualities they require - proven winner, exciting football, youth development and so on. So they go to him and they ask if he can do what he did over there, here. And they know that building such a team will take time, especially with so much work to be done in building a top level squad, such tight financial restrictions, and such a negative amount of press existing around the club. So they won't fire him this summer. He will get time to do the job he was brought it to do, which is what he has shown he can do elsewhere - a back 5 team, full of youth, that forces transitions and attacks the space.

Here's what they didn't ask him to do. They didn't ask him to work with what he has to ensure we stay in the premier league. He's not Moyes and we're not Everton. He's not Pereira and we're not Wolves. He's not been asked to improve the squad he has, keep their heads above water and if you make the conference league that's the best you could hope for. He is here to win the league. And that requires a plan, it requires time, it requires patience.

Disagree with the plan if you wish, but at least try and understand it. The summer will be really exciting, new players, new youth, new energy, all following an actual plan executed with a degree of competency we haven't seen since Fergie left. Try and enjoy it.
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Excellent post. Deserves a like imo
 
cpresc said:
This is a little ignorant and somewhat premature:

1. They've shipped out one of the biggest cultural and economic problems in Rashford
2. They've had a successful loan of Antony who will likely fetch 30-40m this summer

Both of which, EtH would have kept.

We might win the Europa League and get CL qualification alongside 100m in extra revenue.
Click to expand...
How is any of this a benefit of appointing him mid-season?
Had Amorim been appointed in the summer, could the club have still shipped out Antony and Rashford?
Were the clubs’ chances of winning the Europa League boosted by appointed Amorim mid-season, rather than a few months earlier?
Maybe you put the wrong part of my post in bold:
The club gained little or nothing by appointing Amorim mid-season, and at the very least they introduced a number of (largely unnecessary) complications by failing to simply install him in the summer. That’s the summer of 2024. The club screwed up by faffing about. If Amorim really is the man, he should have been appointed in May, not November.
 
stepic said:
No, it just makes you an impatient fan.

Which doesn’t apply to ETH given by the time he was fired he had been given 3 full summer windows. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
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Even last summer, there were still many posters calling anyone who wanted ETH out a fake fan or even a bad person.
 
Really hope we win the Europa. This could be another manager that’s won more than Arteta in nowhere near the same time he’s had.
 
cpresc said:
Easy to say in hindsight but the (slim) majority of the Caf wanted him to stay on after than epic win.
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It’s quite funny though because we sacked LVG after winning the FA cup and didn’t we finish 5th that year? Where as ETH finished like 8th but won an FA cup and he stayed in a job. Don’t see the logic in that.
 
DJ_21 said:
It’s quite funny though because we sacked LVG after winning the FA cup and didn’t we finish 5th that year? Where as ETH finished like 8th but won an FA cup and he stayed in a job. Don’t see the logic in that.
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Well it was different people making the decision, but Mourinho becoming available played a big role in LVG getting sacked. If we had seen eye to eye with Tuchel, ETH would have had the same fate.
 
stepic said:
No, it just makes you an impatient fan.

Which doesn’t apply to ETH given by the time he was fired he had been given 3 full summer windows. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
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Ok so questioning a manager who has Manchester United finishing 15th is impatient, that's where we are.
 
UnofficialDevil said:


We are the worst team since I arrived.
Is there any reason he’s saying this?
Click to expand...


The fact that he is self aware is one of my favorite things about him. Genuine acceptance that things have not been good. Our previous managers have arrogantly refused to acknowledge this and it always irked me. We can all see it's not been good enough. Hearing your manager try to pretend that there are no issues is annoying. I am happy that he is acknowledging it in a public forum.
 
RonB said:
Call me a cynic, but if we’re lauding the Ineos plan to “hire the best in class,” then that prompts two immediate responses:
1/They described Ashworth as the best in class too… and then binned him after five months. So that’s hardly evidence that Amorim won’t be sacked this summer.
2/Ineos could have signed Amorim last summer. It would have been cheaper (not least in because ETH’s contract wouldn’t have been extended), recruitment could have been designed around the new manager, and it would have given him a full summer to get the team ready for a playing overhaul. So either Amorim isn’t best in class, Ineos aren’t very good at identifying best in class - or both.
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Regarding point 2. I don't think there was a concrete plan for Amorim to move in the summer. I'm sure clubs were looking at him but many (Liverpool included) probably thought it was 2 or 3 years too soon.

He would have been on our radar and was probably the only available candidate come October.

I'd also say (even pre cup final) the board were split on sacking Ten Hag. The report that came out on the Friday before (I think) was a load of nonsense. Had Ten Hag gone in the summer, we'd have probably gone for someone like Thomas Franks.
 
Cloud7 said:
The fact that he is self aware is one of my favorite things about him. Genuine acceptance that things have not been good. Our previous managers have arrogantly refused to acknowledge this and it always irked me. We can all see it's not been good enough. Hearing your manager try to pretend that there are no issues is annoying. I am happy that he is acknowledging it in a public forum.
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And on the other hand EtH was straight up deluded. That press conference after 0-3 against Liverpool. Most probably he inflicted some mental damage to players, that they are still trying to recover from.
 
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