All change of ownership and Red Knights related posts here please

A large percentage of the fan base might disagree but then I'd point out that a large percentage of the fan base have been misled by the sensationalist media and MUST about the true state of the club's financials. The £70m can go and the club will just continue operating normally. That's the reality.

That's not the point. Well done for including a dig at MUST and the media though.

The reason fans will be angry is that a substantial amount of money generated by the club would be used to pay off personal debt incurred by the Glazers that Gill and others have said is nothing to do with the club.
 
That's not the point. Well done for including a dig at MUST and the media though.

The reason fans will be angry is that a substantial amount of money generated by the club would be used to pay off personal debt incurred by the Glazers that Gill and others have said is nothing to do with the club.

Hang on. Shouldn't you be castigating JP Morgan for making pure guesses about our cash reserves? Were they just making the figures up when they got bored? No? Well in future try researching the subject properly before you come in with your snide remarks.

Why should fans be angry about it when it won't impact on the way the club is run? It's not their money and the club they support will continue to compete for the top honours. That's all they need to know and that's all they should care about.
 
As i understand it, we can see how any commercial revenue gained will benefit the club by looking a few simple scenarios:

Assume that the annual interest payment on the senior debt equals exactly £45m for arguments sake. The owners need to achieve twice that amount in EBITDA before they can take a dividend; if that target is achieved then they will be able to (not will, but will be able to) move upto the following sum out of the club...

(EBITDA-£45m)/2

For argument's sake then let's assume then that without these commercial deals our base EBITDA would be £90m, and also that the owners will always take their maximum allowed dividend.

Three scenarios then...

a) No commercial deals
b) £20m extra revenue from commercial deals
c) £50m extra revenue from commercial deals

How much extra cash would the club benefit by in each case?

a) From the EBITDA of £90m the owners take a dividend of £22.5m and then the £45m interest is paid. This would leave the club with £22.5m net-profit.

b) From the EBITDA of £110m the owners take a dividend of £32.5m and then the £45m interest is paid. This would leave the club with £32.5m net-profit.

c) From the EBITDA of £140m the owners take a dividend of £47.5m and then the £45m interest is paid. This would leave the club with £47.5m net-profit.

So obviously we can see that the higher the club's revenue the greater the benefit to the club. The club benefits directly from every commercial deal in place. The above scenarios do not take into the unlikelihood of the owners taking maximum dividends every year, remember; the actual figures would probably be much more positively geared.

If there are any inaccuracies here then i'd like to know, because as of now the above is how i (admittedly a layman) understand the situation.

That's it Ciderman. Good on you for having the patience to explain it.
 
Hang on. Shouldn't you be castigating JP Morgan for making pure guesses about our cash reserves? Were they just making the figures up when they got bored? No? Well in future try researching the subject properly before you come in with your snide remarks.

Why should fans be angry about it when it won't impact on the way the club is run? It's not their money and the club they support will continue to compete for the top honours. That's all they need to know and that's all they should care about.

It is our money that keeps this club going and your comments smack of Glazer arrorgance again. Remember we have a choice where we spend our money and dont take us for granted or OT could go the way of the shopping malls
 
Hang on. Shouldn't you be castigating JP Morgan for making pure guesses about our cash reserves? Were they just making the figures up when they got bored? No? Well in future try researching the subject properly before you come in with your snide remarks.

Why should fans be angry about it when it won't impact on the way the club is run? It's not their money and the club they support will continue to compete for the top honours. That's all they need to know and that's all they should care about.

I think it is overstated. You have a history of making up figures to suit your argument.

As for the 2nd paragraph, I disagree and the reasons have been discussed to death so it's pointless going down this road again.
 
Well the net debt as of June 30 2009 included £510m of borrowings (old bank debt) and £150m of cash.

The club had c.£500m bond debt and about £160m of cash as of June 30 2010.

Cash may well be channelled up to RFJV to pay off some of the PIK debt which would increase the club's net debt but it's not an issue because the club can quite clearly comfortably service its borrowings.

In June 2009, where was the PIK debt?
 
That's it Ciderman. Good on you for having the patience to explain it.

Well that would lead me to conclude then that the financial future for United looks bright. Why would we then, as fans of the club, be at all interested in partaking such extreme action as a general boycott and put the club at risk?
 
I think it is overstated. You have a history of making up figures to suit your argument.

As for the 2nd paragraph, I disagree and the reasons have been discussed to death so it's pointless going down this road again.

Why do you think it's overstated? If you're going to come out and disagree with the JP Morgan analysts then at least show how you've come to that conclusion.

MUST have a history of making up figures to suit their argument. I have no such history. 99% of the figures I include in my posts are based on excellent sources, be it the independently audited accounts, the 2006 refinancing memorandum, the bond issue prospectus or JP Morgan's research note on the bond issuance.
 
Why do you think it's overstated? If you're going to come out and disagree with the JP Morgan analysts then at least show how you've come to that conclusion.

MUST have a history of making up figures to suit their argument. I have no such history. 99% of the figures I include in my posts are based on excellent sources, be it the independently audited accounts, the 2006 refinancing memorandum, the bond issue prospectus or JP Morgan's research note on the bond issuance.

Go back and read your own post's
 
Well that would lead me to conclude then that the financial future for United looks bright. Why would we then, as fans of the club, be at all interested in partaking such extreme action as a general boycott and put the club at risk?

Get away you wum. Payments of c£70m to pay off the PIKs are a far greater financial risk than a boycott.

If 5,000 boycotted and the tickets remained unsold, the cost to the club would be c£3.5m.
 
Well that would lead me to conclude then that the financial future for United looks bright. Why would we then, as fans of the club, be at all interested in partaking such extreme action as a general boycott and put the club at risk?

Such action is ludicrous of course Ciderman. The reality is though that there are some so called fans out there who ultimately care more about pushing their own political ideology on to the rest of us than they do about the club.
 
Such action is ludicrous of course Ciderman. The reality is though that there are some so called fans out there who ultimately care more about pushing their own political ideology on to the rest of us than they do about the club.

Hail the revolution :lol: Quit talking nonesense GCHQ your spinning is making me dizzy
 
It was held at the RFJV limited level. Why?

So the parent company's overall debt was £716.5m in June 2009.

Even with the £160m at hand, net debt would be £560m

If you're being REALLY, REALLY pedantic, you could argue that the club doesn't owe the money on the notes issued this year because they were offered from MU Finance plc while four different subsidiaries of RFJV stand as guarantors.

What was the net debt after the refinancing? I understood that it was over £460m
 
So the parent company's overall debt was £716.5m in June 2009.

Even with the £160m at hand, net debt would be £560m

If you're being REALLY, REALLY pedantic, you could argue that the club doesn't owe the money on the notes issued this year because they were offered from MU Finance plc while four different subsidiaries of RFJV stand as guarantors.

What was the net debt after the refinancing? I understood that it was over £460m

Post refinancing it was £420m (Red Football Ltd) but obviously cash has increased since then which means that net debt will have been at a very similar level at June 30 2010 to what it was a year earlier on June 30 2009 (£360m).
 
Post refinancing it was £420m (Red Football Ltd) but obviously cash has increased since then which means that net debt will have been at a very similar level at June 30 2010 to what it was a year earlier on June 30 2009 (£360m).

So lets say you are right, tell us why then has it took you so long to say that the debt has been reduced to £360m. It was over £700m a short time ago so lets see they some how have discovered £340m approx in a very short space of time, do tell us where?
 
As i understand it, we can see how any commercial revenue gained will benefit the club by looking a few simple scenarios:

Assume that the annual interest payment on the senior debt equals exactly £45m for arguments sake. The owners need to achieve twice that amount in EBITDA before they can take a dividend; if that target is achieved then they will be able to (not will, but will be able to) move upto the following sum out of the club...

(EBITDA-£45m)/2

For argument's sake then let's assume then that without these commercial deals our base EBITDA would be £90m, and also that the owners will always take their maximum allowed dividend.

Three scenarios then...

a) No commercial deals
b) £20m extra revenue from commercial deals
c) £50m extra revenue from commercial deals

How much extra cash would the club benefit by in each case?

a) From the EBITDA of £90m the owners take a dividend of £22.5m and then the £45m interest is paid. This would leave the club with £22.5m net-profit.

b) From the EBITDA of £110m the owners take a dividend of £32.5m and then the £45m interest is paid. This would leave the club with £32.5m net-profit.

c) From the EBITDA of £140m the owners take a dividend of £47.5m and then the £45m interest is paid. This would leave the club with £47.5m net-profit.

So obviously we can see that the higher the club's revenue the greater the benefit to the club. The club benefits directly from every commercial deal in place. The above scenarios do not take into account the unlikelihood of the owners taking maximum dividends every year, remember; the actual figures would probably be much more positively geared.

If there are any inaccuracies here then i'd like to know, because as of now the above is how i (admittedly a layman) understand the situation.

Some nice EBITDA progression there. I assume they are purely illustrative because the JPM credit report doesn't foresee such rapid growth on their best estimate basis. They assume flatish EBITDA over the next 4 to 5 years- though they do allow for a 15% pa growth in 'other' sponsorship.

A few questions:
Are the Ebitdas pre or post management fees of 6m? I assume post-Ebitda from your calculations.
Have you deducted the swap loss annual cost from your 'net-profit' figure- around 5m pa over the next 5 or so years?
Have you allowed for the fact that EBITDA overstates cash to the tune of c. 9m pa over the next 4 years (from the Aon deal)?

The more realistic EBITDA progression provided by JPM will show that if you allow for max annual dividend entitlements, and the above considerations, the club will have less than 10m pa to spend on itself over the next 4 years. It predicts expenditure on facilities to come in at 5m or so leaving the princely sum of c. 5m pa available for player net spend. These figures are underpinned by a 15% pa increase in the 'other' aspect of commercial revenue.

If we were to use your fanciful Ebitdas together with your assumption for annual dividends and allow for the above condiderations we would have:

@90m EBITDA: Club retains 8m only; Glazer related costs come to about 82m.
@110m EBITDA: Club retains 17m; Glazer costs sweep up the residual.
@140m EBITDA: Club keeps 32m; Glazer costs come in at 108m.

(And I haven't included the management fee of 6m in the Glazer costing.)

On the flipside, if EBITDA (less the management fee) came in around 80m, the club would retain 20m with certainty as the Glazers wouldn't be entitlted to an annual dividend. The club could, by performing poorly on the financial front, retain more cash
for investment in itself.

It should be noted that even the JPM report's upside scenario does not envisage EBITDAs greater than 130m in the next 5 years; the maximum projected EBITDA (net of the management fee) is 124m.

It is true though that the club will benefit more from the spoils of greater commercial revenue in the long term should cash profits grow appreciably. In the short term, the legacy of the latest refinancing will very likely diminish the club's share of the benefits.


PS Thanks for the auld advice on the Quote thingamajiggy.
 
Post refinancing it was £420m (Red Football Ltd) but obviously cash has increased since then which means that net debt will have been at a very similar level at June 30 2010 to what it was a year earlier on June 30 2009 (£360m).

So why was the figure of £466.1m so widely reported?

Why do you never consider the RFJV level? That's the main United holding company that has the shareholding in the club; the company against which the PIKs are secured too.
 
So why was the figure of £466.1m so widely reported?

Why do you never consider the RFJV level? That's the main United holding company that has the shareholding in the club; the company against which the PIKs are secured too.

That was the figure in the prospectus showing what net debt would look like with the £70m cash dividend taken out.

I do consider the RFJV level but United's assets aren't secured against the PIK debt. The Glazers shareholding in Red Football Limited is secured against the PIK debt and so if they were to sell the club at some point down the line then it will be the Glazers who pay off the PIK debt with their sale proceeds. Obviously they need to stabilise the PIK debt in the short to medium term so that's why some of Red Football Ltd's cash will probably be used for that purpose.
 
What cash reserves figure do you have an issue with? The £160m as of June 30 2010? Back in March JP Morgan estimated it would be £154m so I hardly think my estimate is anything to get worked up about. Do you think it will be considerably less than that?

A large percentage of the fan base might disagree but then I'd point out that a large percentage of the fan base have been misled by the sensationalist media and MUST about the true state of the club's financials. The £70m can go and the club will just continue operating normally. That's the reality.

And could David Gill rightfully say the residual of 84m (154m-70m) is the ringfenced 'Ronaldo money', a free cash reserve- like the 70m pik money- that Fergie could use without restriction while the club continued to operate normally?
 
Hi, Jazz.

I was using the figures as a basic example to show that increased commercial revenue would benefit the club; if you read the previous page then you'd see that some were claiming that new deals are worthless to the club as the owners would take all the profits. I've no background in finance, but i'm natural to mathematics and know (or at least, as far as i know) that increased commercial revenue equates to increased profit for the club.

As to the JPM report, i couldn't answer your questions with any confidence. I do know though that the club has reported its confidence of boosting commercial revenue to such an extent in the near future that it would rival matchday income as our leading revenue source. IIRC commercial revenue on the last accounts was approx. £45m, and matchday income approx. £110m yearly; that's a whopping £65m difference that would have to be made up on the commercial side to prove the club's official line to be accurate.

Is such a commercial boost do-able?

I don't know. We do know though that the club is claiming to be confident of it, and not only that, but we also know that hoards of telecoms companies around the globe also seem to match that confidence in the club's broadcasting concept, as evidenced by their signing-up in droves with their £multi-million deals. There's something to it, that's for sure, the club certainly doesn't seem to be simply making idle claims; every month it seems we have another territory on board willing to pay us another £2m a year.

I don't know what was forecast in JPM's report, or when it was written or for what purpose, i've not seen it and would doubt very much that i'd be able to understand head-nor-tail of it if i did.

Regardless, do you really think it at all likely that the club would miss that £90m EBITDA target with all these extra deals yet to bear their fruit? As a layman, from all that i've seen and what i can gather from it, i'd say not.
 
That was the figure in the prospectus showing what net debt would look like with the £70m cash dividend taken out.

I do consider the RFJV level but United's assets aren't secured against the PIK debt. The Glazers shareholding in Red Football Limited is secured against the PIK debt and so if they were to sell the club at some point down the line then it will be the Glazers who pay off the PIK debt with their sale proceeds. Obviously they need to stabilise the PIK debt in the short to medium term so that's why some of Red Football Ltd's cash will probably be used for that purpose.

So if the Glazers default on the PIKs, what asset has to go to the creditors?
The assets of RFJV, which is the 100% shareholding that it has in United.

A bit like the malls defaulting and the Glazers losing them...
 
And could David Gill rightfully say the residual of 84m (154m-70m) is the ringfenced 'Ronaldo money', a free cash reserve- like the 70m pik money- that Fergie could use without restriction while the club continued to operate normally?

He could rightly say that the 'Ronaldo money' was available and had been ringfenced for Fergie to use when you take the into account the RCF. Of course you could pass off the c.£90m end of year balance (with £70m having been deducted) as clearly showing the cash was available but effectively you'd have to use RCF cash at some point to finance such a large expenditure in one year. We won't need to do that though and even if we did the cash outflow would be spread over at least two financial years. In any case we used the old RCF for working capital requirements so yes as far as I'm concerned that would be the club operating normally.
 
He could rightly say that the 'Ronaldo money' was available and had been ringfenced for Fergie to use when you take the into account the RCF. Of course you could pass off the c.£90m end of year balance (with £70m having been deducted) as clearly showing the cash was available but effectively you'd have to use RCF cash at some point to finance such a large expenditure in one year. We won't need to do that though and even if we did the cash outflow would be spread over at least two financial years. In any case we used the old RCF for working capital requirements so yes as far as I'm concerned that would be the club operating normally.

So money that we haven't yet drawn down has been ringfenced as part of the money that came in from the Ronaldo sale. Bloody hell, you're clutching at straws.
 
He could rightly say that the 'Ronaldo money' was available and had been ringfenced for Fergie to use when you take the into account the RCF. Of course you could pass off the c.£90m end of year balance (with £70m having been deducted) as clearly showing the cash was available but effectively you'd have to use RCF cash at some point to finance such a large expenditure in one year. We won't need to do that though and even if we did the cash outflow would be spread over at least two financial years. In any case we used the old RCF for working capital requirements so yes as far as I'm concerned that would be the club operating normally.

We are rich beyond our wildest dreams, who do you think you are kidding? Why do we need a credit facility if we have all this cash? I have said this countless times we had to sell Ronaldo and we couldn't afford Tevez. We need austere measures like the ACS and more partners than Liz Taylor to survive, twist figures till the cows come home but that is the reality
 
So if the Glazers default on the PIKs, what asset has to go to the creditors?
The assets of RFJV, which is the 100% shareholding that it has in United.

A bit like the malls defaulting and the Glazers losing them...

The creditors (PIK debt holders) would get the Glazers shareholding in Red Football Limited. We think it's 100% of the shareholding but it's never been confirmed post 2006 refinancing.

I know what you're saying, you're saying the Glazers will do everything they can to prevent a 2017 default on the PIK debt in order to safeguard their Red Football Ltd shareholding. Of course if the PIK debt is secured against 20%-30% of Red Football Ltd's shares then the pressure to prevent a 2017 default is considerably less but I'm happy to go along with the idea that it's secured against 100% of the shareholding.

What I see happening is the £70m dividend being used to stabilize the PIK debt in the short-term and then we'll see a refinancing of the remaining PIK debt once credit conditions have improved sufficiently, with Carrington being used as security and possibly some more Red Football Ltd cash being used to reduce the principle amount.

What won't happen is what the likes of Andersred and MUST want you to think will happen. They want you to think that the Glazers will use every available pound of Red Football Ltd's cash that they're entitled to, to pay down the PIK debt even if it leaves the club with insufficient cash for capex on players and facilities. That just isn't going to happen though and it defies all logic to think that it will. If Red Football Ltd's EBITDA outperforms the base case projections then obviously it would make more sense to channel cash to RFJV because it wouldn't effect the club's ability to operate normally.
 
Well it depends what your view of them was. If you thought they were an established group sitting round atable in their shiny armour then you'll be disappointed. They never called themselves the Red Knights - that was a media term placed on them following an interview by Keith Harris (not a 'Red Knight') on Football Focus. However if you viewed them as a fluid group of wealthy United fans interested in (a) buying the club and (b) helping the fans gain control, then of course they exist.

Well my view has always been that the idea of the RKs is nice in theory but it is never going to happen in the real world.

You only have to look back at various comments in this thread to see that many fans seriously believed that there was a real group of 'fan friendly investors' who would bid for the club.
Hopefully it is now clear to all that there is actually no such thing as the Red Knights and there certainly isnt anyone who is anywhere near 'saving' the club from the 'evil' owners.



I disagree. The fans saw the Stretford End being demolished. They saw the flotation of the club. And they saw ticket prices rise to pay for players wages (remember the £2 rise blamed on Keano?). Some fans didn't like it and there were some protests (I remember the stand-in after the final game on the old Stretty) but nothing on the scale of what we saw last season.

I did say 'most fans', anyone who protested back then were a minority.
However, you do bring up a good point which is that some sections of our fans are always protesting about something or another - if it is not the Glazers then it will be something else.


Well personally I thought MUST made a mistake in getting involved in the whole renewal lark. That was always a big red herring.

Glad you are willing to admit that - it is the biggest problem I have with MUST. I hope you have told the powers that be over there that it was a mistake? I hope they will not repeat it



But to suggest that a Supporters Trust shouldn't be involved in trying to pressurise owners such as the Glazers, negotiating with potential buyers, increasing membership or looking for ways to increase the Trust fund is to miss the point of a Supporters Trust entirely.

I have not suggested any of that. I was quite specific on what I had an issue with.



It's really funny how desperate you and your "allies" are to try and bury the Red Knights once and for all, and, in your eyes, the whole issue along with them.

You just don't get it, do you?

It's not about the specific people you may or may not think of as Red Knights, or about Duncan Drasdo or any other individuals, and it isn't going to go away.

:boring:

Worth noting that ralphie managed to respond to the same post without being a dickhead.
 
So money that we haven't yet drawn down has been ringfenced as part of the money that came in from the Ronaldo sale. Bloody hell, you're clutching at straws.

I don't think I am. It's a credit facility that's clearly available to us (we drawed down on the old one) and you'd only be talking about using £20m or so for six months of the year. What's that, 400k in interest. Again I have to ask, what's the big deal?
 
We are rich beyond our wildest dreams, who do you think you are kidding? Why do we need a credit facility if we have all this cash? I have said this countless times we had to sell Ronaldo and we couldn't afford Tevez. We need austere measures like the ACS and more partners than Liz Taylor to survive, twist figures till the cows come home but that is the reality

Oh for god's sake it's an overdraft facility. All businesses have them and I suspect even you might do.
 
So lets say you are right, tell us why then has it took you so long to say that the debt has been reduced to £360m. It was over £700m a short time ago so lets see they some how have discovered £340m approx in a very short space of time, do tell us where?

Can't you work it out for yourself Crerand? Have a go.
 
I think the very fact that MUST encouraged season ticket holders to not renew and that Andersred advised a full boycott shows what a desperately shit position the anti-Glazer movement is in with regards to achieving a change of ownership.

I mean if they actually had any realistic hope of removing the Glazers then they wouldn't have advised or encouraged a boycott that was always going to be doomed to failure. They played the hand they were dealt and with very few chips remaining they had to go all in.

They're now back to trudging through that dark tunnel that they were in for four years before the bond issue and that's where they're going to stay.
 
I think the very fact that MUST encouraged season ticket holders to not renew and that Andersred advised a full boycott shows what a desperately shit position the anti-Glazer movement is in with regards to achieving a change of ownership.

I mean if they actually had any realistic hope of removing the Glazers then they wouldn't have supported or encouraged a boycott that was always going to be doomed to failure. They played the hand they were dealt and with very few chips remaining they had to go all in.

They're now back to trudging through that dark tunnel that they were in for five years before the bond issue and that's where they're going to stay.

I agree, GCHQ; it was a million-to-one shot that would cost a gullible few their tickets and with them whatever love for United still remained in their hearts. Spawning a few more bitter old cnuts like fred was the very best they could realistically hope for, and yet they vaguely nudged it through regardless. What a bunch of bloody planks! These are the people that we're expected to believe know how a football club should be run, remember? Idiots.
 
He could rightly say that the 'Ronaldo money' was available and had been ringfenced for Fergie to use when you take the into account the RCF. Of course you could pass off the c.£90m end of year balance (with £70m having been deducted) as clearly showing the cash was available but effectively you'd have to use RCF cash at some point to finance such a large expenditure in one year. We won't need to do that though and even if we did the cash outflow would be spread over at least two financial years. In any case we used the old RCF for working capital requirements so yes as far as I'm concerned that would be the club operating normally.

A ringfenced reserve is a cash free reserve that wouldn't invoke debt.
THe pik money of 70m, if it goes, would not require the use of the RCF (and it shouldn't). Spending 80m or the 'Ronaldo money' will involve the use of the RCF. In effect, the Ronaldo money is essentially borrowings against future income, money not yet received. I am not saying that Fergie would or should use the supposed 80m in one go; but if the money is truly ringfenced, he could without involving more debt. If I say I have set aside money to buy a car and end up putting most of the cost on my credit card, to what extent could I rightfully argue that I have set aside the required amount?

Our cash needs this accounting year, 2010/2011 are much heavier than the last period. According to the JCM report, 52m will leave the club to service the bond and the swap loss (31 last year). THe Glazers could take a dividend by March 2011. In addition, there is the impact of aon deal on working capital.
If we spend the planned annual budget of 25m (distinct\separate from the 'Ronaldo money'), then the cash position around march 2011 will be weak.

Based on the JPM report, and using the Q3 results from 2009 as a guide, I reckon our cash balance in March 2011 will be roughly (154m-77m) 80m. If you assume the pik money is taken by then, the balance drops to 10m.
Spending the supposedly ringfenced 'ronaldo money' by then would drop the balance to -70m (ie pretty much a full drawdown of the RCF). Future revenue(deferred income received in may/june of 2011) will have to be used to pay down the RCF so as not to breach the RCF's maintenance covenant; thereafter the cycle would repeat itself- the RCF would be called on again to meet heavy working capital needs and the process would continue until free cash flow in future years negate the need for the RCF (Notably, cash generation under the JPM report is forecast to be weak on their best estimate basis and they don't even model the annual dividend entitlement).
Spending the 'Ronaldo money' would involve a series of short term borrowings over a number of years and would incur an interest expense in each year.
Spreading the 'Ronaldo money' spend over a couple of years doesn't fix the problem; the impact on the RCF will be additive.
In conclusion, once the PIK money of 70m heads west, so does the free cash reserve formerly known as the 'Ronaldo money'. What remains, if spend, would involve heavy use of the credit card known as the RCF. And there is no way the club would put heavy player expenditure on the credit card:
1, It's not designed for that purpose; we previously had a 50m RCF which wasn't traditionally used to purchase players.
2 It's difficult to control and manage short term debt instruments such as this, especially when you have to counterbalance its use to allow for significant working capital needs at the same time.
3 There could be complications wrt to taking dividend entitlements.
4 A heavily drawn RCF together with the first lien bond would make a possible refinancing of the pik more difficult.

No, I think the RCF will be used to meet heavier than usual working capital needs- the latest refinancing allows for additional casflow out of the club. The ceiling of 75m on the RCF has the added benefit of being close to the 'Ronaldo money' amount, a useful comparable from a P.R. perspective. I expect it to be used sparingly for player spend.
 
I don't think I am. It's a credit facility that's clearly available to us (we drawed down on the old one) and you'd only be talking about using £20m or so for six months of the year. What's that, 400k in interest. Again I have to ask, what's the big deal?

Redjazz has already mentioned it, but the Ronaldo money was ringfenced by Gill, not a credit facility. Oh wait, that would put the club deeper into debt as well, wouldn't it. Yet more money that would have to be found, unlike the supposed ringfenced money that we haven't spent yet, given that the rest of the transfers since we sold him could easily have come from the net £25m a year spend that they promised would be made available to Fergie.

The creditors (PIK debt holders) would get the Glazers shareholding in Red Football Limited. We think it's 100% of the shareholding but it's never been confirmed post 2006 refinancing.
It was in the bond prospectus that the PIK was secured against the assets of RFJV, the 100% shareholding.....
I know what you're saying, you're saying the Glazers will do everything they can to prevent a 2017 default on the PIK debt in order to safeguard their Red Football Ltd shareholding. Of course if the PIK debt is secured against 20%-30% of Red Football Ltd's shares then the pressure to prevent a 2017 default is considerably less but I'm happy to go along with the idea that it's secured against 100% of the shareholding.
At the time that the PIKs were established, there's no way they'd have gone for a 20-30% settlement, given the total roll up of debt and the value of the club at the time. A 20-30% shareholding means that they can be out-voted at every turn; nor does it compare well when looking at the apr on the deal. Lenders rate for risk, with sub prime obviously incurring massive aprs due to the level of default. 14.25% isn't a great rate for a club that appears as wonderful as you make out.

What I see happening is the £70m dividend being used to stabilize the PIK debt in the short-term and then we'll see a refinancing of the remaining PIK debt once credit conditions have improved sufficiently, with Carrington being used as security and possibly some more Red Football Ltd cash being used to reduce the principle amount.
So you think someone will be happy to lend money against Carrington when it's already being used as security elsewhere in a deal that's already incurred a rate rollup? How much do you think Carrington's worth? Given the 100% shareholding on the table to secure the last lot of PIKs, why would someone take something worth less than our star player as security against a business that has constantly refinanced, adding more costs on each occasion?

What won't happen is what the likes of Andersred and MUST want you to think will happen. They want you to think that the Glazers will use every available pound of Red Football Ltd's cash that they're entitled to, to pay down the PIK debt even if it leaves the club with insufficient cash for capex on players and facilities. That just isn't going to happen though and it defies all logic to think that it will. If Red Football Ltd's EBITDA outperforms the base case projections then obviously it would make more sense to channel cash to RFJV because it wouldn't effect the club's ability to operate normally.

So, if the club isn't paying the PIKs down after the initial £70m, mainly because, say, they've had to spend £100m to replace Scholes, Giggs, Rio and Van Der Sar, they'll have far more debt in 2017 when the whole refinancing issue comes up again.
 
I don't see why Glazer wouldn't use as much cash as possible to pay off PIKs and use the RCF for working capital (subject to any restrictions) - he's effectively swapping 14/16% interest payments for 7/8%.
 
I don't see why Glazer wouldn't use as much cash as possible to pay off PIKs and use the RCF for working capital (subject to any restrictions) - he's effectively swapping 14/16% interest payments for 7/8%.

Pretty much what we'd said when the whole bond issue kicked off. So long as the PIKs are paid off pound for pound with what is drawn down from the RCF, then it's not a problem, barring the fact that you're still the same amount in debt.
 
:lol:

It's flared up once in five years because we sold a player for £80m and because we weren't ten points clear in the league at the time a refinancing was done.

There you go again with your low opinion of United fans as spoilt glory hunters who shout sack the board if we're not winning every pot available.

Fortunately, not a true picture.
 
They're now back to trudging through that dark tunnel that they were in for four years before the bond issue and that's where they're going to stay.


Except of course for the huge progress made in the last 12 months. Membership going from 32,000 to over 160,000, supporter ownership being in the election manifesto of the new government, and the issue being debated in parliament yesterday.

Keep your head in the sand if you like, makes a change from being up the Glazers' arses. :smirk: