Utter bullshit. From the moment Giggs came on we switched to 4-3-3 and remained that way till the end of the game.
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
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Not really. About the only "fact" is that Scholes is playing at such a high level that unless it is necessary for him to get a rest, Carrick won't replace him in the starting line up.
He hasn't looked to be on autopilot but, at least in 1 game so far this season, he's looked like he's taken on a different approach to the game when being closed down instead of just laying the ball back.
I agree with the point others have made in that while Carrick/Scholes were good a few years ago, age on Scholes side means that Carrick has to work that much harder so Scholes can do what Scholes does best. But, Carrick has never been about working hard but, more about positioning. When playing a midfield 2 and Scholes is one of the people - you need a more energetic player like Fletcher or Anderson next to him for the most part.
Perhaps against WHU that may have worked but, if a team chooses to place a player on top of Scholes much like we did with Park on Pirlo - it becomes increasingly difficult for his partner if he doesn't have the legs to cover a lot of ground.
3 or 4 seasons ago you mean.
Well the good teams didn't have that much success stopping Ronaldo, did they?
Are you saying we never lost with Ronaldo in the side?
More recently as well
If Scholes is being tightly marked it becomes imperative that his partner be capeable of covering his passing game
To be honest it's a worry when your more talented midfielders can't be arsed to put in a shift to get themselves out of a rut. It raises a whole host of questions regarding their mentality.
Yes but, you also need the partner to be able to cover a lot more ground back and forth. Not just take over the quarterback role from Scholes. While Carrick can certainly alleviate issues of Scholes being man marked out of a game with his passing - he isn't IMO mobile enough and energetic enough to also do everything else like run up in support and also harry. With Fletcher you get the energy plus he is a pretty good passer of the ball (current form not included).
Are you talking about Carrick here? He's played 1 game this season in that he's put in a very good shift. Unless you are now referring back to last season.
Rodwell in and Carrick out 
Carrick covers as much ground as Fletcher, champions league games shows the stats and he's never left wanting
Berbatov covers the most ground on the team according to the stats but, that doesn't mean he'd be very good at covering for Scholes.
Carrick does cover a lot of ground - hence why people give him credit for being aware positionally. But, that doesn't mean he covers the ground in the same manner as a Fletcher does. Fletcher's ability to close down and quickly move around the park is not something Carrick is as good at.
I get you really have a thing for Carrick - I also like Carrick but, to pair up with Scholes today (not 3 years ago) IMO could be a recipe for distaster. Carrick along side Fletcher or Anderson or in a midfield 3 with either of those 2 and Scholes would work well.
For me if Scholes starts in a 2 CM setup - then it has to be with Fletch or Anderson unless we really expect some gimp midfield opposition.
Not consistently.
I have no doubt they are still able to play together in a 442 and perform brilliantly. However they are equally likely to get over-run these days. Either of them partnered with Fletcher is a much more consistent line-up.
Don't be silly. I'm saying that the big teams didn't have that much success stopping Ronaldo. It is not and nothing like saying that we never lost with Ronaldo in the team.
Eh no, unless you are talking about the Charity Shield or one or two matches here and there.
Mozza, if Alex Ferguson, the most successful manager of all time, had in his midst a central midfield partnership that was far superior to any other central midfield partnership that he had at the club, don't you think that he would play them together regularly? If Carrick and Scholes are so good together, then why don't they play together more often? Either a) Alex Ferguson can't see what's blatantly in front of his eyes or b) Carrick and Scholes are not half as good together anymore as you would like to convince yourself.
We weren't exceptional against the big sides with Ronaldo in the team
Fergie is not infalliable
Wrong. They were games in which were truly exceptional vs big teams when Ronaldo was here. Even before Carrick arrived.
PHP:
He doesn't need to be infallible to not follow your stupod idea that Carrick and Scholes are our best midfield partnership. Have no qualms about that.
So you think you know more than him? Ferguson is watching the matches a lot more closely than you. He sees the players training week in week out. I'd think he has a better knowledge of how good the players are than your good self.
I never said we were, did I?
You keep using extremes to try to prove a stupid argument correct.
I said the big teams didn't have that much success stopping Ronaldo, you imply I meant he was exceptional. From my comment, you also implied that I said we never lost with Ronaldo in the team. You need to read my comments if you're going to question them.
No, but I can still think he's wrong, do you ever think Fergies wrong on anything?
My argument wasn't about Ronaldo's performance, the opposition can expolit the weakness in his work rate regardless of his own quality
At some point you just have to take a look at yourself and admit your point of view is deeply biased. Carrick is very good player but, clearly over the last season and a bit - a pairing of him and Scholes in a 2 CM can be a dangerous prospect for us. Both are excellent at passing and controlling the but, when it comes to working hard and harrying and getting the ball back for large parts of the game - it's not their strong suit.
It worked well when Scholes was a few years younger, when you had a Ronaldo in the team where if you worked on pressing the CM with extra men, that you left Ronaldo in one on ones. Lot of teams chose to double up on Ronaldo or had to worry about Rooney - so they never pressed our midfield as much as they do today.
Now teams are more likely to put more men against our CM and let our flair players beat us with a moment of magic. There are a multitude of reasons as to why Scholes/Carrick today can work against us even though at one point it was a very good duo.
Of course he can be wrong, but I would definitely not believe that he would be wrong about the same thing every day for the last 2+ years, especially when he has more knowledge than anybody else about the subject.
Wouldn't mind seeing him back in the team, to screen the defence and make interceptions.
We look a bit open at the moment, and Fletcher's form has been a bit iffy.
We look a bit open at the moment, and Fletcher's form has been a bit iffy.
Nothing has changed since I made this thread. Our midfield is far to open because of the way Fletch and Scholes play. It's wide open to the counter attack and it's cost us again today.
He should be back next week right? Or is it the week after?
I agree. We play some great football with Scholes and Fletcher though.
What do you mean because of the way Fletcher and Scholes play? It's obviously the tactic to have Scholes dictate the play and have Fletcher making these marauding runs. If Fergie was that concerned about them being caught forward, he'd play Fletcher in a much more defensive role which would obviously make us a lot stronger defensively. It's obviously the tactic to play that way. If it was not so, then it would have been fixed by SAF after day one of the season. It is completely obvious that Scholes and Fletcher are playing the roles that Fergie is expecting them to play.
Except he cannot play that role, and he never has been able to. Fletcher needs Carrick behind him to do the defensive duties, so Fletcher can 'hassle' the opposition. And that means we lack creativity in central midfield with them too there.
He can't play a more defensive role, can he not? He played a more defensive role last season and was excellent. So he can play it. It's a tactic to get him more forward.Except he cannot play that role, and he never has been able to. Fletcher needs Carrick behind him to do the defensive duties, so Fletcher can 'hassle' the opposition. And that means we lack creativity in central midfield with them too there.
Because they both get forward as part of their natural game and time after time both get caught up the pitch. Then when we lose the ball the opposition are already at our back 4. It's usually in these "lesser" games where we're really trying to attack the opposition. It was really noticeable against Fulham and then again today.
But the point is that if Fergie had a problem with it, it would have been fixed already. If there was a problem and they weren't playing as directed, he would be screaming at either Fletcher or Scholes to drop deeper. He doesn't though. They continue to play the exact same way in every match.
Once again today, there were a couple of instances when Bolton won the ball and were able to counter-attack straight down the middle of the field because there was literally nobody between them and our defence. We are just so open in the middle of the park it's unbelievable.
The strange thing is that it seems to be a deliberate tactic, as both Fletcher and Scholes do seem to be playing a more attacking role this season than normal. Neither are as good at holding and protecting the defence as Carrick is, but they normally do sit deeper than they have been this season. Fergie did say that he wanted more goals from the central midfield this season, but they have to show more discipline than this.
Carrick can't get back soon enough. Even when off form it's normally only his on the ball abilities that suffer, he'll still handle his defensive duties well. But fingers crossed he'll hit form in both areas.
The strange thing is that it seems to be a deliberate tactic, as both Fletcher and Scholes do seem to be playing a more attacking role this season than normal. Neither are as good at holding and protecting the defence as Carrick is, but they normally do sit deeper than they have been this season. Fergie did say that he wanted more goals from the central midfield this season, but they have to show more discipline than this.
Carrick can't get back soon enough. Even when off form it's normally only his on the ball abilities that suffer, he'll still handle his defensive duties well. But fingers crossed he'll hit form in both areas.
Cant disagree with that. We are not dominating the midfield area enough
The only thing costing us is shit form amongst members of the back 4. Anyone who thinks having a Carrick on pitch could have prevented us from conceding the second goal, that actually cost us the 3 points is a lunatic.
I will argue that if Carrick had been on the pitch today, the 2nd goal wouldn't have been scored
We can't be so naive anymore and play in this attacking manner away from home and expect to steamrole good, organised opposition. We should setup away from home as if we're playing in Europe. Keep the ball, be patient and grind the opposition down. May not be pretty, but we know it works.
3 draws in 3 away games suggests the current system isn't working. You could argue that defensive mistakes have cost us. I will argue that our defense has been put under far more pressure than normal due to the attacking tactics we have employed this season. Resulting in experienced players making numerous mistakes per match.
The idea that Carrick is the answer to our defensive incompetence is straw clutching at finest if you ask me.
Carrick can't stop Evans playing like a headless chicken, Carrick can't stop Vidic leading about as well as a sheep, Carrick can't get Evra to get his finger out and start performing, Carrick can't address our weakness of having no outright 1st choice right-back, and Carrick can't make our defenders do their job which is to win headers from corners, crosses, and free-kicks.
The buck stops with the defence on this, they are just not defending properly, they are not concentrating on their jobs(witness Evra on so called post duty today) and it's just not good enough at this club, playing at this level.
Carrick can't stop Evans playing like a headless chicken, Carrick can't stop Vidic leading about as well as a sheep, Carrick can't get Evra to get his finger out and start performing, Carrick can't address our weakness of having no outright 1st choice right-back, and Carrick can't make our defenders do their job which is to win headers from corners, crosses, and free-kicks.
The buck stops with the defence on this, they are just not defending properly, they are not concentrating on their jobs(witness Evra on so called post duty today) and it's just not good enough at this club, playing at this level.
Its all down to pressure. Bolton applied pressure on our defense today regually and that breeds mistakes. We should know because we're often in the reverse position. We should therefore know that if you're playing against a team that employs a deep lying midfield player that they become far more difficult to break down. Espically on the break because it gives the CB's the option of attacking the ball, knowing that the midfielder can fill in.
I noticed today that the CB's and VDS were struggling to find passing options in the middle of the park, hence why they continually tried to pump it up long. Thats one of Carricks great strengths, he's almost always open for a pass and that again, reduces pressure.
He isn't the magic wand I agree. But he would calm our defense down and provide more height in the box at set pieces. I think our form will improve drastically when he starts playing again. He's a very important player for us and its about time that people recognise that.
I noticed today that the CB's and VDS were struggling to find passing options in the middle of the park, hence why they continually tried to pump it up long. Thats one of Carricks great strengths, he's almost always open for a pass and that again, reduces pressure.
He isn't the magic wand I agree. But he would calm our defense down and provide more height in the box at set pieces. I think our form will improve drastically when he starts playing again. He's a very important player for us and its about time that people recognise that.