Wenger: the man, the mystery

Scoreboard Red said:
As I say, he's fooled himself into believing his own hype, that he builds these great Arsenal sides from unknown sources when in reality, 90% of their success came from Henry, Bergkamp, Overmars, Pires etc who were expensive purchases who brought their experience and talent at a cost, the fact that he has brought Vieira, Anelka and Fabregas through from the unknown or mega cheap tends to define him when it shouldn't.

Ferguson has adapted over 25 years at United, he's still learning and will admit his mistakes (of which have been minimal), Wenger hasn't adapted and instead likes to play victim instead of evolve his team to the developing surroundings...
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great observation mate. It almost seems like Wenger has regretted his former behaviour and is now trying to make amends. Think deep down he must feels he has left it a bit too late.

He must realise that to win the title he needs to overcome not just United...but Chelsea, City, Liverpool now with Dalglish and even the likes of Spurs.
 
Arsenal and Wenger have to be applauded for moving to a new stadium and not going straight into deep doggy doo-doos as happens to most when they move.....even City were under the pump until they got rescued from insolvency by Thaksin Shinawatra....

Their board always seem to drop him in it too, with their "Arsene does have money to spend" mantra....... some say he has subtsantial sums , others say it is a paultry amount - my guess is it is somewhere in between.

His philosophy on football and development of young players is to be admired.
He's won two "doubles" and reached a UCL Final so he's no mug.

My own feeling is that he will buy substantially this season, as he will tell the board that they won't get away with lack of major investment for too long - there's going to be more challengers for the UCL places than ever next season.

Criticisms: His teams go on real "downers" when they lose a "major" game -
such as when they lost "number 50" at OT , and when they lost to Brum
in the Cup this year.

no doubt he is a TOP class manager though....
 
misterredmist said:
Arsenal and Wenger have to be applauded for moving to a new stadium and not going straight into deep doggy doo-doos as happens to most when they move.....even City were under the pump until they got rescued from insolvency by Thaksin Shinawatra....

Their board always seem to drop him in it too, with their "Arsene does have money to spend" mantra....... some say he has subtsantial sums , others say it is a paultry amount - my guess is it is somewhere in between.

His philosophy on football and development of young players is to be admired.
He's won two "doubles" and reached a UCL Final so he's no mug.

My own feeling is that he will buy substantially this season, as he will tell the board that they won't get away with lack of major investment for too long - there's going to be more challengers for the UCL places than ever next season.

Criticisms: His teams go on real "downers" when they lose a "major" game -
such as when they lost "number 50" at OT , and when they lost to Brum
in the Cup this year.

no doubt he is a TOP class manager though....
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So based on a lot of these observations you Utd fans would be happy to accomodate him and would, if he did exactly the same at Utd as he has at Arsenal the last 6 years allow him free reign to carry on as he has ??
 
Jopub said:
Hiddink would be ideal he'd keep the creativity but completely 'man up' the defence. Mentally he'd get a firm grip on them
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Hiddink's a good shout, but he's getting on a fair bit now and isn't going to give us continuity. Looking beyond Wenger, we need someone who is fairly young and committed. Klopp would be my pick out of all the other European managers..he can work on a budget and can mix both youth and experience well.
 
Villas Boas would be a nightmare in charge of Arsenal. They aren't too far off being title challengers.

They need more players like Campbell, Petit, and Parlour. They don't need great technical players as much as the need some mental strength and toughness.
 
If you want to win the title you need either Chelsea's level of riches or a manager as good as Ferguson. Man City have the first. Arsenal don't have either.

Agent Wenger? No. Arsene is as good as the gunners will get. Even after the implosion of the last 2 months, he's still the second best manager in England and he'll keep them near the top, even if he doesn't win any more of the big prizes. It could be much worse - just ask the Hammers fans. Changing manager now is a big risk for a stable club like Arsenal. Not worth the risk.
 
surf said:
If you want to win the title you need either Chelsea's level of riches or a manager as good as Ferguson. Man City have the first. Arsenal don't have either.

Agent Wenger? No. Arsene is as good as the gunners will get. Even after the implosion of the last 2 months, he's still the second best manager in England and he'll keep them near the top, even if he doesn't win any more of the big prizes. It could be much worse - just ask the Hammers fans. Changing manager now is a big risk for a stable club like Arsenal. Not worth the risk.
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Naa, for me well worth the risk

Life is about moving on, taking chances to achieve the highest you can

Is'nt that what is behind Ferguson's whole ethos ? the way he makes Utd play every game. He never accepts the easier point nearly always goes for the win even though you may sometimes go wrong.

Ferguson not only approaches every game like that but runs the whole club like it too - takes great courage knowing you could fall flat on your face.

Arsenal are ripe for another managerial challenge to take a solid attacking foundation and to add some balls and good defenders to the whole scene
(which Wenger has sproved time and time again is way beyond him)

Id like a cultured top mnager but I also dont feel it needs that 100% just somebody who can add some bollocks and defensive nous to what we already have

We lack good sound sensible defenders - not great ones - and some seriously aggressive ones at that. It would transform he whole mentality of the club
 
Aaron said:
By which time he'll be 2/3 of the way through preparation for his fifteen year plan?
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He'll be nearing the end of his 10 years so we'll have to assess his success or otherwise then (as I'm sure he will himself).
 
Out of interest, why did a 10 year plan start in 2004 then?

That's the year the club won the title. Surely then it would be a case of trying to maintain a continuation of the success, as opposed to planning to do it again in a decade.

Just seems odd to start a 10 year plan, the year you win the league.
 
I'd date it from summer 2006 when we left Highbury and started to break up the 2002-4 team, planning to build a team based on youth (for economic reasons) and move to possession-based football (for European success).
 
Remains a good coach but for me he's gone backwards as a manager. Before 04/05 his blueprint for success was to sign/develop physically strong naturally talented individuals, teach them the ethos of a passing game and then mould them into a winning team.. he knew what it took to win titles and the signings of Campbell & Toure, prove he had a decent eye for top defenders, those two at their peak are very complete defenders (strong in the air, pacy on the ground).

But since 05/06 where he showed decent tactical nous to get Arsenal into the final of the CL, he's gone backwards big time.. obsessed with this passing tiki taka and seems oblivious to all the other ingredients which help forge a great footballing side, not just one which is aesthetically pleasing.

He also needs to be more ruthless, sense when a players got the guts and the desire to win top games, more Wilsheres and less Arshavins.
 
You have to look at Wenger's record in the context of:

Squad spend

Arsenal - £90m
Chelsea - £280m
City - £290m
Man Utd - £220m

Wage spend

Arsenal £110M
Man Utd £130M
Chelsea £160M
Man City £200M?
 
Alternatively how about we judge a manager's record by what he's won -

Since 2006 -

United 4 league titles, 1 European Cup
Chelsea 1 League title, 3 FA Cups
City 1 FA Cup
Arse 3 Emirates Cup

And whats at the end of this 10 year plan? 1 league title and then another 10 years to rebuild?
 
Psmith said:
Alternatively how about we judge a manager's record by what he's won -

Since 2006 -

United 4 league titles, 1 European Cup
Chelsea 1 League title, 3 FA Cups
City 1 FA Cup
Arse 3 Emirates Cup

And whats at the end of this 10 year plan? 1 league title and then another 10 years to rebuild?
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Domestic and European DOMINATION
 
Raees said:
he knew what it took to win titles and the signings of Campbell & Toure, prove he had a decent eye for top defenders, those two at their peak are very complete defenders (strong in the air, pacy on the ground).
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Yep and here's some of the 'incomplete' defenders

Stepanovs Cygan Senderos Tavlaridids Luzhny Gallas Troare Squillacci Djorou Silvestre

Of course there's the 'we get a world class left back but let Chelsea grab him as you fk him over on his wages' (all of £5,000 a week)

mmm replace him with Clichy who starts well but ends up a liability

I wont put up the brilliant keepers we've had throughout his reign - suffice to say .............Actually I will put them up as well

David Seaman
Stuart Taylor
Graham Stack
Richard Wright
Fabian Carini
Rami Shaban
Giullume Wamuz
Jens Lehman
Manual Almunia
Mart Poom
Vito Mannone
Luiz Fabianski
Wozech Szezesney

David Seaman - a legend - world class keeper - Wenger inherited him
Stuart Taylor - looked good when he at any point came in for Seaman. He played a large part in 01/02 title run in playing brilliantly. For some reason known only to Wenger he was shipped off to Watford and on loan to god knows where - Got fked off and left when Almunia arrived!

Jens Lehman - poor for two years but found some consistancy in 03/4 inconsistant and a liability after that

Mannone came in as stop gap and played well. Wenger thought it better to ship him out !! and keep Almunia in !!

The rest of them .........well Almunia the very worst keeper the PL has ever seen was number one keeper for 5/6 years :wenger: And his back ups were shite

You still think Wenger has a decent eye for defenders / goalkeepers.??

With respect ;) .........you must be mad

What would you say had Ferguson put all of that lot into your first team?

Raees said:
He also needs to be more ruthless, sense when a players got the guts and the desire to win top games, more Wilsheres and less Arshavins.
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That's a fair point and highlighted by 'player retain' decisions over the last 5 years

kept - Rosicky Diaby Arshavin ( nil bottle) Eboue Denilson
get rid - Flamini Gilberto Hleb (these all within two weeks)

Yep defensively and bottle wise that all makes a lot of sense

Would you still say Wenger has a good eye for a defender ?

___________

For me Wenger is unique in world football - a top flight manager for nigh on 15 years at a world renown club .......and knows not a bean about defeding and defenders

How the fk he's got away with it is a mystery of the modern age imo
 
peterstorey said:
I'd date it from summer 2006 when we left Highbury and started to break up the 2002-4 team, planning to build a team based on youth (for economic reasons) and move to possession-based football (for European success).
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Genuine question here Mr Storey

When did you hear of this 10 year plan thingy?

Is there confirmation anywhere that Wenger has actually instigated this?
 
Although from the other thread it almost has more relevence in here

"We are open-minded. It will be difficult to find a coach who teaches me how to manage a football team." (©Daily Telegraph, London)

Jesus wept :wenger:
 
Psmith said:
Alternatively how about we judge a manager's record by what he's won -

Since 2006 -

United 4 league titles, 1 European Cup
Chelsea 1 League title, 3 FA Cups
City 1 FA Cup
Arse 3 Emirates Cup

And whats at the end of this 10 year plan? 1 league title and then another 10 years to rebuild?
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The stadium project wasn't a guarantee of trophies in the short term. The precariousity of the situation meant we had to expect a lean spell in terms of silverware..perhaps we weren't expecting a wait as long as this one (seeing how we were winning trophies for fun in the first half of the noughties) but there you go.
 
Jopub said:
Genuine question here Mr Storey

When did you hear of this 10 year plan thingy?

Is there confirmation anywhere that Wenger has actually instigated this?
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Gazidis speaking two years ago: “We will not only be there or thereabouts this year but we will be one of the top clubs in the country and the world five years from now and 20 years from now,” said Gazidis. “I can tell you that with confidence – provided that we do not do things that place our fundamental stability in jeopardy. “Transfers are the last resort. What Arsene won’t do is spend money on players that do not add real value.”
 
That doesn't count

Is there any articles or quotes from Arsenal officials about this ten year plan?
 
Arsenal are the ultimate in corporate greed, really. Usually at a football club you have the money men looking to make the money and the football men looking to win the trophies. At Arsenal, everyone seems to be pulling in the same direction. Finish 4th and whether trophies come or not, is irrelevant.

It is easy to see why fans and players get frustrated at the lack of ambition as all anyone seems to care about is achieving the minimum. I've said before, Wenger would take 4th in the PL for the next ten years, even if that meant no other trophies to speak of.

I'm sure that when plans for the new stadium were announced, and Arsenal were winning titles and FA Cups and what have you, that any Arsenal fans would have envisioned a near decade of complete and utter trophy-less mediocrity.

Arsenal's desire to win things has been diminished over the last few years and it's a shame that they've a manager seemingly happy to accept that as long as he keeps his job.
 
I don't see how the cost of the stadium has been that much of an issue. The overall costs stand around £500m, but our debt, at times, has been much greater than that, yet we've always maintained spending in the market and won a shit load of trophies over the same period.

This is what I really don't get about Arsenal being held up as a well run club. How can one club have more debt/obligated payments yet still succeed, yet another who have less, struggle to compete and need a '10 year plan' (renewable every two years) before they can even think about being able to invest in the first team.
 
10 year plans there may be but does that mean you dont give your all to win things in the meantime? what are the fans and the ambitious players (cesc) supposed to do during this time - enjoy falling short year in year out?

the financial situation at utd is well documented but you'll never see/hear SAF or his players using it as an excuse they'll simply see it as another obstacle to overcome, another challenge to complete, its turned into a motivation. that mentality comes from the manager

i get the feeling some folk at arsenal are happy to wallow in the no money/perma-young players/bully-boy oppositions excuses rather than knuckling down and giving it a real good go regardless. Their collapse since the CC final has been staggering but is (imo) no means ability related. They're soft in the head/heart and that mentality also comes from the manager
 
Red_Aaron said:
10 year plans there may be but does that mean you dont give your all to win things in the meantime? what are the fans and the ambitious players (cesc) supposed to do during this time - enjoy falling short year in year out?

the financial situation at utd is well documented but you'll never see/hear SAF or his players using it as an excuse they'll simply see it as another obstacle to overcome, another challenge to complete, its turned into a motivation. that mentality comes from the manager

i get the feeling some folk at arsenal are happy to wallow in the no money/perma-young players/bully-boy oppositions excuses rather than knuckling down and giving it a real good go regardless. Their collapse since the CC final has been staggering but is (imo) no means ability related. They're soft in the head/heart and that mentality also comes from the manager
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We've already covered this,

You can't expect them to beat Birmingham in a cup final when we're only in year 5 of the plan.

Winning trophies is year 10.

Likewise, defending set pieces, that's in year 7 of the plan.

Managing a shot on goal in a crunch CL away game is year 8 of the plan.

Unfortunately some of the basics, such as holding a 4 goal lead, have been postponed until next year I think.
 
Will there be a need for a new 10 year plan this year seeing as they're further away now than they were when the 10 year plan was first implemented.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Storey, why did you slag off 5 year plans as the nadir of a desperate team clutching at straws, but are quite happy to excuse Arsenal's failure as being part of a 10 year plan?
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Because they were '5-year plans' retrofitted as an excuse for failure not real plans that involved building stadiums, rebuilding teams and setting the foundations for the future.
 
peterstorey said:
You have to look at Wenger's record in the context of:

Squad spend

Arsenal - £90m
Chelsea - £280m
City - £290m
Man Utd - £220m

Wage spend

Arsenal £110M
Man Utd £130M
Chelsea £160M
Man City £200M?
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why - he's the manager not head of accounting.
 
peterstorey said:
Because they were '5-year plans' retrofitted as an excuse for failure not real plans that involved building stadiums, rebuilding teams and setting the foundations for the future.
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:lol:

That's exactly what your's is.

There was no talk of this 10 year plan at the start of the season, just bullishness about how Arsenal were definitely going to win the league.

Now it looks more likely that you'll finish 4th, it's all talk of a 10 year plan.

Utter bullshit.
 
Just because we have a 10-year plan doesn't mean we should wait until the end of it to win anything. We had the squad to win it this year we just didn't play well enough often enough.
 
peterstorey said:
Just because we have a 10-year plan doesn't mean we should wait until the end of it to win anything. We had the squad to win it this year we just didn't play well enough often enough.
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Replace 'play well enough' with 'defend well enough' and I agree wholeheartedly.
 
I wanted to start a new thread for this but I doubt that this is really worth it, no matter how funny it is.

I think I might have just met (insert silly Arsenal Caf poster name here) whilst at work and I didn't even know I worked with them!!

'If Arsene Wenger was English, he'd have been knighted'. You cannot make this shit up. These are the words that have just left the mouth of an Arsenal fan in my office. He genuinely believed this to be true and got upset when I spat my coffee out in response. His argument is that he has won the Premier League, the FA Cup and has one of the best records in the CL!!

I'm still laughing at him now
 
4th position. 12 points behind. Need of at least four new players next season to even keep up with what they've achieved this season.

Closer than ever?

Never been further away, under Wenger.
 
The 12 points thing is a bit misleading. We've played about six meaningless friendlies where we've dropped points where we otherwise wouldn't. We're not further away than ever, clearly.
 
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