Manchester United 3:0 Hull City

tob · Nov 27, 2014

AngeloHenriquez said:
Thanks for the grammar lesson, but I meant as I said, our best player, and if you really can't figure out who that is (When it's probably out of 2/3 players at a push) and I said he was being played out of position, then it really is worrying.

It's quite simple, you don't shoehorn your best player into an XI. That means you do not play your best player out of position to accommodate the team, especially when you have equally as good replacements for the position you are trying to play him in.

That was no grammar lesson. That was just me trying to get a clarification so that the conversation could go on in the right direction.

Everyone has a different view on who the best player is and where he should be playing.
But you seem to want me to guess who you think the best player is and where his best positions is, instead of just telling me.
This conversation would go much easier if you didn't have me guessing what you think.

But I'll guess you're talking about di Maria.
Then we clearly have a different view on how to use him, or even how we should play.

You can't just put a player like di Maria in one position and say "here is your best position, therefor you should always play here". He is a player that can offer you different types of qualities in different positions.

When we play 4-3-3 he could play as one of the middle three or as one of the wingers. In both of those positions, he's one of the best in the world.

But as my first post was about 3-4-3 / 3-4-1-2 (or whatever you want to call it) and thats where you reacted, I'll try to explain my thoughts on that.

Did you watch the World Cup? And especially Robben?
When I look at the formation and how van Gaal uses his players in that, I think di Maria could do what Robben did for the Netherlands.
With di Maria further up the pitch we have someone who can run in behind the defenders. Use the space between the centre back and the fullback. We have someone who is dangerous on the counter attacks and that's something we have missed since Ronaldo left.

With Carrick and Herrera in the middle we have one who can spot the longer balls behind the defenders and one who has quick passing and movement. Herrera's forward runs into the box is something we need, especially against weaker teams.
Di Maria as the wider left-forward offers you speed, runs behind the defence and is one that can hit a good cross.
Mata in the middle as the playmaker and Rooney as the wider right-sided forward.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

If you however think that a attacking position in this formation has to be played by a forward, like van Persie or Falcao, I suggest you take another look at how van Gaal uses his forward players in this formation.

Taher Shah · Nov 27, 2014

tob said:
That was no grammar lesson. That was just me trying to get a clarification so that the conversation could go on in the right direction.

Everyone has a different view on who the best player is and where he should be playing.
But you seem to want me to guess who you think the best player is and where his best positions is, instead of just telling me.
This conversation would go much easier if you didn't have me guessing what you think.

But I'll guess your talking about di Maria.
Then we clearly have a different view on how to use him, or even how we should play.

You can't just put a player like di Maria in one position and say "here is your best position, therefor you should always play here". He is a player that can offer you different types of qualities in different positions.

When we play 4-3-3 he could play as one of the middle three or as one of the wingers. In both of those positions, he's one of the best in the world.

But as my first post was about 3-4-3 / 3-4-1-2 (or whatever you want to call it) and thats where you reacted, I'll try to explain my thoughts on that.

Did you watch the World Cup? And especially Robben?
When I look at the formation and how van Gaal uses his players in that, I think di Maria could do what Robben did for the Netherlands.
With di Maria further up the pitch we have someone who can run in behind the defenders. Use the space between the centre back and the fullback. We have someone who is dangerous on the counter attacks and that's something we have missed since Ronaldo left.

With Carrick and Herrera in the middle we have one who can spot the longer balls behind the defenders and one who has quick passing and movement. Herrera's forward runs into the box is something we need, especially against weaker teams.
Di Maria as the wider left-forward offers you speed, runs behind the defence and is one that can hit a good cross.
Mata in the middle as the playmaker and Rooney as the wider right-sided forward.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

If you however think that a attacking position in this formation has to be played by a forward, like van Persie or Falcao, I suggest you take another look at how van Gaal uses his forward players in this formation.

Expect a like very soon

Sammyjunn · Nov 27, 2014

Di Maria cant fulfill Robben's role, Robben is simply the better dribbler and has more power, Robben was forced to beat defenders consistently, out of standing position, only Messi in this world could do a similar job. Everytime Robben got the ball at the WC, he did something excellent with it, it's a really advanced role in which RVP offers little help.

Chuckazulu · Nov 27, 2014

Sammyjunn said:
Di Maria cant fulfill Robben's role, Robben is simply the better dribbler and has more power, Robben was forced to beat defenders consistently, out of standing position, only Messi in this world could do a similar job. Everytime Robben got the ball at the WC, he did something excellent with it, it's a really advanced role in which RVP offers little help.

Di Maria is the closest player we have that can play the role Robben played. I agree with @tob's view but the only problems we have is Di Maria's finishing is a bit poor if we compare with Robben's and he's a bit slower. Robben can also hold onto the ball while Di Maria can't. Those three attributes are important and that's why I feel like Di Maria isn't fully capable to achieve the role the way Robben did. He's a good option though

Sammyjunn · Nov 27, 2014

Chuckazulu said:
Di Maria is the closest player we have that can play the role Robben played. I agree with @tob's view but the only problems we have is Di Maria's finishing is a bit poor if we compare with Robben's and he's a bit slower. Robben can also hold onto the ball while Di Maria can't. Those three attributes are important and that's why I feel like Di Maria isn't fully capable to achieve the role the way Robben did. He's a good option though

He is the closest, but if you cant do that, that role is just useless and too advanced for this team.

tob · Nov 27, 2014

Sammyjunn said:
Di Maria cant fulfill Robben's role, Robben is simply the better dribbler and has more power, Robben was forced to beat defenders consistently, out of standing position, only Messi in this world could do a similar job. Everytime Robben got the ball at the WC, he did something excellent with it, it's a really advanced role in which RVP offers little help.

Watching Robben this summer was a pure joy. Using his speed and power, beating players like they were cones. Like you said, every time he got the ball you'd expect something to happen, and that's exactly what he did.
But i disagree with di Maria not being able to replicate that role.
He too has speed and power. He's a good dribbler at high speed and he's hard to read for a defender.

Maybe he won't be as consistent as Robben was in the World Cup.
But at a World Cup, every game is important and you know this tournament only come every fourth year so you give it your all. Especially when you're at that age that Robben is and you might believe this in my last WC.

Phil Duck · Nov 27, 2014

Perfect match to start RVP again, get the team to attack and help him score a goal and regain some form.

tob · Nov 27, 2014

Chuckazulu said:
Di Maria is the closest player we have that can play the role Robben played. I agree with @tob's view but the only problems we have is Di Maria's finishing is a bit poor if we compare with Robben's and he's a bit slower. Robben can also hold onto the ball while Di Maria can't. Those three attributes are important and that's why I feel like Di Maria isn't fully capable to achieve the role the way Robben did. He's a good option though

Sammyjunn said:
He is the closest, but if you cant do that, that role is just useless and too advanced for this team.

Well, that's a good point. Robben did a great job holding up the ball. Something I've not seen di Maria do.

Sandikan · Nov 27, 2014

soapythecat said:
I think it's safe to say a lot of players that struggled last season, are now having a new lease of life under LvG. I for one couldn't see a way out for Fellaini and Young after dismal performances last season but can't fault what they have done, when played, this season.

I don't think Young has ever really changed that much for us.

He's a decent squad player for our level of club. On his day he can come up with some good play, but doesn't really have enough to be a regular starter for a wannabe top 4 club.

Fellaini got caught up in the Moyes baiting as well as being unfit.
Now he's used properly, is fit, and Moyes is a mere bad memory, he's showing he can bea decent squad player for us too.

Neither should be regulars though.

Momochiru · Nov 28, 2014

I haven't watched Hull this year. Can someone help me with some information? What kind of football do they play? What are their most important players? What formation?

Sean_RedDevil · Nov 28, 2014

Momochiru said:
I haven't watched Hull this year. Can someone help me with some information? What kind of football do they play? What are their most important players? What formation?

Maybe my post will help a little bit
https://www.redcafe.net/matches/manchester-united-vs-hull-city.18/discussion?page=4#post-16751081

Momochiru · Nov 28, 2014

Sean_RedDevil said:
Maybe my post will help a little bit
https://www.redcafe.net/matches/manchester-united-vs-hull-city.18/discussion?page=4#post-16751081

Thanks, mate! Do they play with long balls, or keep it on the ground? Do they have any pacy players?

Razzler777 · Nov 28, 2014

LVG needs to up his game! I won the treble with this United team in the first season on the new Footy Manager...

Seriously though, we should be taking 6 points from the next 2 fixtures and building some momentum.

L Shaw Ankle/Foot Injury no return date
D Blind MCL Knee Ligament Injury no return date
M Rojo Dislocated Shoulder 14th Dec 14
Rafael Groin/Pelvis Injury 8th Dec 14
P Jones Calf/Shin Injury 8th Dec 14
R Falcao Calf/Shin Injury 8th Dec 14
J Evans Ankle/Foot Injury 29th Nov 14 Late Fit Test
J Lingard Knee Injury 8th Dec 14

From what's available

DDG
Valencia
Smalling
McNair
Young
Carrick
Fellaini
ADM
Rooney
RVP

With Wilson and Januzaj getting game time.

fan1996 · Nov 28, 2014

So Falcao is back to training for several days now, is he going to play? :yawn:

allen!7 · Nov 28, 2014

fan1996 said:
So Falcao is back to training for several days now, is he going to play?

I wish this. He is a beast waiting to be unleashed.

allen!7 · Nov 28, 2014

tob said:
That was no grammar lesson. That was just me trying to get a clarification so that the conversation could go on in the right direction.

Everyone has a different view on who the best player is and where he should be playing.
But you seem to want me to guess who you think the best player is and where his best positions is, instead of just telling me.
This conversation would go much easier if you didn't have me guessing what you think.

But I'll guess you're talking about di Maria.
Then we clearly have a different view on how to use him, or even how we should play.

You can't just put a player like di Maria in one position and say "here is your best position, therefor you should always play here". He is a player that can offer you different types of qualities in different positions.

When we play 4-3-3 he could play as one of the middle three or as one of the wingers. In both of those positions, he's one of the best in the world.

But as my first post was about 3-4-3 / 3-4-1-2 (or whatever you want to call it) and thats where you reacted, I'll try to explain my thoughts on that.

Did you watch the World Cup? And especially Robben?
When I look at the formation and how van Gaal uses his players in that, I think di Maria could do what Robben did for the Netherlands.
With di Maria further up the pitch we have someone who can run in behind the defenders. Use the space between the centre back and the fullback. We have someone who is dangerous on the counter attacks and that's something we have missed since Ronaldo left.

With Carrick and Herrera in the middle we have one who can spot the longer balls behind the defenders and one who has quick passing and movement. Herrera's forward runs into the box is something we need, especially against weaker teams.
Di Maria as the wider left-forward offers you speed, runs behind the defence and is one that can hit a good cross.
Mata in the middle as the playmaker and Rooney as the wider right-sided forward.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

If you however think that a attacking position in this formation has to be played by a forward, like van Persie or Falcao, I suggest you take another look at how van Gaal uses his forward players in this formation.

We have a pundit here. Cheers mate.

Raptori · Nov 28, 2014

fan1996 said:
So Falcao is back to training for several days now, is he going to play?

Didn't LVG say something about players having to train for at least two weeks before they can return to the first team? Doubt Falcao will be back quite yet

Raptori · Nov 28, 2014

tob said:
That was no grammar lesson. That was just me trying to get a clarification so that the conversation could go on in the right direction.

Everyone has a different view on who the best player is and where he should be playing.
But you seem to want me to guess who you think the best player is and where his best positions is, instead of just telling me.
This conversation would go much easier if you didn't have me guessing what you think.

But I'll guess you're talking about di Maria.
Then we clearly have a different view on how to use him, or even how we should play.

You can't just put a player like di Maria in one position and say "here is your best position, therefor you should always play here". He is a player that can offer you different types of qualities in different positions.

When we play 4-3-3 he could play as one of the middle three or as one of the wingers. In both of those positions, he's one of the best in the world.

But as my first post was about 3-4-3 / 3-4-1-2 (or whatever you want to call it) and thats where you reacted, I'll try to explain my thoughts on that.

Did you watch the World Cup? And especially Robben?
When I look at the formation and how van Gaal uses his players in that, I think di Maria could do what Robben did for the Netherlands.
With di Maria further up the pitch we have someone who can run in behind the defenders. Use the space between the centre back and the fullback. We have someone who is dangerous on the counter attacks and that's something we have missed since Ronaldo left.

With Carrick and Herrera in the middle we have one who can spot the longer balls behind the defenders and one who has quick passing and movement. Herrera's forward runs into the box is something we need, especially against weaker teams.
Di Maria as the wider left-forward offers you speed, runs behind the defence and is one that can hit a good cross.
Mata in the middle as the playmaker and Rooney as the wider right-sided forward.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

If you however think that a attacking position in this formation has to be played by a forward, like van Persie or Falcao, I suggest you take another look at how van Gaal uses his forward players in this formation.

Completely agree with that, it's definitely an effective way to play Di María. However, I don't think it's the best use in this particular game.

I think the key is that he's at his best when he can run with the ball and make things happen. Against teams who push higher up - Arsenal for instance - playing Di María further forward in our team gives him space to exploit. Against teams who defend deeper - I expect Hull to will be one of them - playing Di María in central midfield gives him that space, which gives us more of an attacking threat.

Pexbo · Nov 28, 2014

Would be great if Rojo was back early. Evans and Rafael too.

DDG
Rafael-Smalling-Evans-Rojo
Carrick
Fellaini - Di Maria
Herrera
Rooney - Mata

superdry · Nov 28, 2014

Raptori said:
Didn't LVG say something about players having to train for at least two weeks before they can return to the first team? Doubt Falcao will be back quite yet

I think LVG said two weeks for a full game. I'm hoping he'll get a sub spot with a twenty minute cameo.

Raptori · Nov 28, 2014

superdry said:
I think LVG said two weeks for a full game. I'm hoping he'll get a sub spot with a twenty minute cameo.

Ahh that'd be great, makes more sense actually. He did pretty well as a sub the few times he's played, really looking forward to getting him back

Mali_Zeus · Nov 28, 2014

We must win this, it will be a nice prelud for me coming to Manchester on Monday for a Stoke game.

Chuckazulu · Nov 28, 2014

Sammyjunn said:
He is a monster physically, but he doesnt really strike me as a smart player, and I dont think he is really good on the ball. When I watch him he just often passes it sideways or backwards, but he does make good runs attackingly.

Thanks mate. If he starts, i hope he takes the bull by the horns.

BootsyCollins · Nov 28, 2014

So i dont even know who is injuried and who is not anymore, so it is going to be fun to see who starts.

Hoping for this (With injuries) :
--------------DeGea------------
Valencia--Smalling--McNair--Rojo
-------------Carrick-------------
-------Herrera---Di Maria-------
-------------Januzaj-------------
------Falcao---------Rooney-----

RedDevilCanuck · Nov 28, 2014

tob said:
Watching Robben this summer was a pure joy. Using his speed and power, beating players like they were cones. Like you said, every time he got the ball you'd expect something to happen, and that's exactly what he did.
But i disagree with di Maria not being able to replicate that role.
He too has speed and power. He's a good dribbler at high speed and he's hard to read for a defender.

Maybe he won't be as consistent as Robben was in the World Cup.
But at a World Cup, every game is important and you know this tournament only come every fourth year so you give it your all. Especially when you're at that age that Robben is and you might believe this in my last WC.

Criminal that he didn't win player of the tournament. Messi was nowhere near that level.

YouOnlyLiveTwice · Nov 28, 2014

We have to play 3 at the back with Shaw and Rafael out, it will probably get difficult breaking them Down but it is better than being very shaky in defence.
Di Maria can win this game for us from CM with his dribbling and directness. Wilson has already scored 2 against them so maybe he can do similar again.

Saving Fellaini for Stoke is a good idea, Herrera can also help alot in breaking Hull's defence down. You could hope Rafael is ready for this match, but i don't think so.

1-0 United, Wilson(72)

Roosney · Nov 28, 2014

Brophs said:
Setanta are showing Liverpool. Tits.

Same here in Finland. Can't complain though, I've got to watch every ManUtd saturday 3pm kick off so far on tv.

I haven't watched a single Hull game this season so I have no idea what formation or style they play. Just scrape all three points from this and I'm happy.

Bestie07 · Nov 28, 2014

I want to see a midfield diamond of Carrick - di Maria - Fellaini - Herrera with Rooney and Wilson up top but don't think that is gonna happen with our defensive injuries, specially the lack of a left back.

lysglimt · Nov 28, 2014

Razzler777 said:
LVG needs to up his game! I won the treble with this United team in the first season on the new Footy Manager...

Seriously though, we should be taking 6 points from the next 2 fixtures and building some momentum.

L Shaw Ankle/Foot Injury no return date
D Blind MCL Knee Ligament Injury no return date
M Rojo Dislocated Shoulder 14th Dec 14
Rafael Groin/Pelvis Injury 8th Dec 14
P Jones Calf/Shin Injury 8th Dec 14
R Falcao Calf/Shin Injury 8th Dec 14
J Evans Ankle/Foot Injury 29th Nov 14 Late Fit Test
J Lingard Knee Injury 8th Dec 14

From what's available

DDG
Valencia
Smalling
McNair
Young
Carrick
Fellaini
ADM
Rooney
RVP

With Wilson and Januzaj getting game time.

Considering that Evans played an U21 game 4 days ago - I would consider him to be an option but I agree that McNair deserves to start based on his last performances

fan1996 · Nov 28, 2014

----------------DDG----------------
Val----McNair----Blackett----Rojo
---------------Carrick--------------
---------Afro-------Herrera-------
--------Mata-------ADM-----------
---------------Rooney---------------

berbasloth4 · Nov 28, 2014

i think we should forget 3 at the back - we are at home and should be on the front foot -

go back to the diamond.. our width is our wingers.. Di maria has looked more effective playing from the middle where he sees more of the ball.

Play wilson so it gives rvp a kick up the backside and if we get 2/3 up keep going and really start our season

------------------------------de gea--------------------
-Valencia--------McNair-------------Smalling--Young-
---------------------------Carrick----------------------
----------------Fellaini-------------Di Maria-----------
--------------------------Mata--------------------------
---------------Rooney---------Wilson------------------

Brightonian · Nov 28, 2014

Given that LVG expects Falcao and Rojo to be available, I'd go with this:

DDG
Valencia Smalling Rojo Young
Carrick
Herrera Di Maria
Mata
Rooney Falcao

Keep the ball well, keep the game in their half, attack aggressively. That's the safest way to take the pressure off a makeshift back line. High work rate is key, so if someone suggested playing Rooney instead of Mata with Wilson in Rooney's place I wouldn't argue.

cu3 · Nov 28, 2014

Though LVG has said that Rojo and Falcao will be available for selection, I don't see the point of picking them against Hull if they are not completely match fit. We could just play 3-5-2 and scrape a win. So here goes

De Gea
McNair -- Smalling -- Blackett
Valencia ------------ Carrick ------------Young
Herrera ----- DiMaria
Rooney
RVP

I hope Wilson gets a start and he deserves it but don't think LVG will drop "RVP". We can and should be able to pick up 3 points. 2-0 To United..

Boycott · Nov 28, 2014

Don't Hull play 3-5-2 also?

cu3 · Nov 28, 2014

Boycott said:
Don't Hull play 3-5-2 also?

Saw the Liverpool Hull game about a month ago. They played 3-5-2 then.

Chuckazulu · Nov 28, 2014

Finally made up my mind. It seems like we'll stick with the previous formation and if we do, this is what i would love to see. Evans will probably make way for Blackett but i hope he gets a bit of game time. Falcao has been training for some time now and Van Gaal just said he might be in the squad this Saturday, hopefully he starts or gets a bit of game time too.

--------------De Gea--------------
------McNair--Smalling--Evans-----
-Valencia--Fellaini--Herrera--Young-
----Di Maria---Falcao---Rooney-----

DomesticTadpole · Nov 28, 2014

Chuckazulu said:
Finally made up my mind. It seems like we'll stick with the previous formation and if we do, this is what i would love to see. Evans will probably make way for Blackett but i hope he gets a bit of game time. Falcao has been training for some time now and Van Gaal just said he might be in the squad this Saturday, hopefully he starts or gets a bit of game time too.

--------------De Gea--------------
------McNair--Smalling--Evans-----
-Valencia--Fellaini--Herrera--Young-
----Di Maria---Falcao---Rooney-----

Not sure Evans is ready, he looked a bit rusty against Blackburn on Tuesday. Ander, Adnan looked great. Evans looked like he could do with another game or just be on the bench.

Amadaeus · Nov 28, 2014

If Mata does not start this game, I feel that we will be letting him go sooner rather than later. I believe it has been five consecutive games that he has not started, without being injuried. Personally, I do not understand his omission from our starting eleven despite the notion that Van Gaal sees Rooney as a better number ten. Nevertheless, I would like to see the team below versus Hull.

De Gea
Valencia - Smailing - McNair - Blackett
Carrick
Herrera - Di Maria
Mata
Rooney - Van Persie

Even though van Persie has been in terrible form, I feel an attacking gameplan against Hull with rvp being one of our attacking outlet will manage to regain his confidence if he manages to get on the scoreboard.

I also hope we do not go with three in the back. Despite our victory against Arsenal last week, it was covered up by a terrible performance. I do not believe we will be that lucky this time around if we go to hull with the same gameplan.

ChaddyP · Nov 28, 2014

If Hull are gonna come playing with 3 at the back... I think we should play 433 and expose the space that would be left in the wings. 3 5 2 vs 3 5 2 generally leads to a tight cagey game. Di Maria and Januzaj at the wings... And hopefully lvg goes on what he said in presser and play who is in better form... Therefore dropping rvp to the bench. Rooney up top with either Mata or Herrera playing in behind. With fellaini and carra in midfield. Back 4 of Valencia and whoever is fit and in form

____________De Gea__________
Valencia Smalling McNair Rojo
____________Carrick____________
_______Fellaini Herrera_________
___Di Maria Rooney Januzaj____

On the bench we have

Lindegaard, Mata, Blackett, Fletcher, rvp, Falcao, Young

Leaves us with the option to go 442 diamond if we feel that a tactical change is needed and cover for injuries in specific areas of the pitch..... Looking for a strong performance.... Something to send a message that we mean business... (not a Lambert "look we drew away to a shite CL team so we're back" kinda message)

He Comes From Serbia · Nov 28, 2014

Two things I am personally looking forward to this weekend... the new Star Wars trailer, and watching a certain Manchester United player in action against Hull.

No, not Di Maria, or Rooney, or even Falcao, but Marouane Fellaini. His transformation under LVG has been immense, and also shows that LVG is learning more about the premier league. There's a decent video posted by 'Zoo' in his performances thread, compare it to that champions league gif! He's like Roy Keane on steroids (I'm not implying Marouane is taking anything, btw), a box to box midfielder with passion and a temper to match. A genetically modified Keane in a lab, a six million dollar man that actually cost closer to sixty million dollars. Bad news for Herrera, who was also looking decent before his injury, but you can't drop this guy right now, he adds an element of control to our overall game, and no longer looks like the clunky oaf from last season. I just can't see a repeat of the Leicester game with him in the side, and that right now is the epitome of an essential player.

As it turns out, there is a reason why the board ok-ed the £27.5 million it cost to buy him, and hadn't just taken leave of their senses for a brief moment.

May the Fellaini be with you.

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