Harry Kane

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devilish

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Empire said:
So discuss that post, this is the part you quoted:



What's wrong with the prediction Rooney can continue at the rate of 3 goals every 5 games? It's what Louis van Gaal expects Rooney to get this season. His return in all competitions has been slightly below that in the past 5 seasons where he has probably played more not as a striker than as a striker so it's not unrealistic to expect him to get an average of about 3 in 5.

If you think he can only do that as a striker against championship level opposition then that's your opinion, against premier league opposition in the last two seasons (yes the 7th place under Moyes and 4th under Louis van Gaal) where he played deeper for both managers quite a few times he scored at a rate of 2.34 goals every 5 matches so I think it's pretty ridiculous to think he can only get a return of 3 in 5 against championship level teams.
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Let me state what I've said in better words. Its pretty stupid to quote the goals scored against Brugge as an indication or rought prediction of what is going to happen. The reason being that most of the EPL clubs have much better defences. In matter of fact, if you take the game's importance out of the pictures Brugge are probably a notch better than the clubs we've encountered during our pre season. Would you base your predictions on such games? I wouldn't

Returning on Rooney, I was never carried away by his hype. Back when he was 17, I was one of those few posters in here who said that we should wait till after the WC before we launch a ridiculous bid for him. Despite SAF was probably thinking the same thing, I got massacred for it. In due time he became one of my favourite players and I initially took his side when he voiced his concerns about the value strategy. Having said that I never saw him as one of the finest players in the world. He was certainly a notch below the likes of Ibra and Suarez and certainly two notches below Ronaldo and Messi.

In my opinion, Rooney is in decline and had been so for quite some years. Having said that he's not as shit as many in redcafe claimed to be. He's still a top forward, probably among the best 10 in the world. Despite rating him more than around 60-80 percent of the people in here (rough estimation I may be wrong) I think it would be madness to start the season with no cover/competition for him. Its bad enough to start with Chica/Wilson and it would be utterly stupid if we sell Chica and we don't replace him with anyone
 

Santiago_KinderBueno

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Rooney isnt in decline; its just too late for him to learn how to play in a disciplined manner with regards to playing at the top. He's movement that has been geared toeards being everywhere on the pitch can't be suddenly toned down to spearheading a team.

Get a striker and put Rooney back in the position where he has more freedom.
 

Empire

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devilish said:
Let me state what I've said in better words. Its pretty stupid to quote the goals scored against Brugge as an indication or rought prediction of what is going to happen. The reason being that most of the EPL clubs have much better defences. In matter of fact, if you take the game's importance out of the pictures Brugge are probably a notch better than the clubs we've encountered during our pre season. Would you base your predictions on such games? I wouldn't

Returning on Rooney, I was never carried away by his hype. Back when he was 17, I was one of those few posters in here who said that we should wait till after the WC before we launch a ridiculous bid for him. Despite SAF was probably thinking the same thing, I got massacred for it. In due time he became one of my favourite players and I initially took his side when he voiced his concerns about the value strategy. Having said that I never saw him as one of the finest players in the world. He was certainly a notch below the likes of Ibra and Suarez and certainly two notches below Ronaldo and Messi.

In my opinion, Rooney is in decline and had been so for quite some years. Having said that he's not as shit as many in redcafe claimed to be. He's still a top forward, probably among the best 10 in the world. Despite rating him more than around 60-80 percent of the people in here (rough estimation I may be wrong) I think it would be madness to start the season with no cover/competition for him. Its bad enough to start with Chica/Wilson and it would be utterly stupid if we sell Chica and we don't replace him with anyone
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Most of what you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing, it's just waffle, the second paragraph especially and also the bit about signing cover for him.

I simply pointed out 3 in 5 is what he has so far and if he continued at that rate he would have 23 in 38. That's literally what I said, since then I have pointed out the projection based on 3 in 5 is not unreasonable because it's what Louis van Gaal has stated he expects (25 goals in all competitions) and also it's only slightly above what he has been recently scoring at mostly as an attacking midfielder.

If you think it's a stupid projection then that's your opinion but I think it's stupid to think he'll only average 3 in 5 against championship level opposition.
 

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Empire said:
Most of what you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing, it's just waffle, the second paragraph especially and also the bit about signing cover for him.

I simply pointed out 3 in 5 is what he has so far and if he continued at that rate he would have 23 in 38. That's literally what I said, since then I have pointed out the projection based on 3 in 5 is not unreasonable because it's what Louis van Gaal has stated he expects (25 goals in all competitions) and also it's only slightly above what he has been recently scoring at mostly as an attacking midfielder.

If you think it's a stupid projection then that's your opinion but I think it's stupid to think he'll only average 3 in 5 against championship level opposition.
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Ronney has 3 in one game. You cant hide that fact simply because we have played 5 games thus far. Doesnt kompany and fernandinho have 2 or 3 goals in even a less amount of games?
 

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Santiago_KinderBueno said:
Rooney isnt in decline; its just too late for him to learn how to play in a disciplined manner with regards to playing at the top. He's movement that has been geared toeards being everywhere on the pitch can't be suddenly toned down to spearheading a team.

Get a striker and put Rooney back in the position where he has more freedom.
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Nonsense.
 

Empire

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Santiago_KinderBueno said:
Ronney has 3 in one game. You cant hide that fact simply because we have played 5 games thus far. Doesnt kompany and fernandinho have 2 or 3 goals in even a less amount of games?
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I also said in my original post 5 games is too soon to judge him, I have explained the projection of 3 in 5 is also that he has on average 2.65 goals in 5 games over the past 5 seasons and he has mostly been not a striker, so let's not ignore this, also under Moyes, LvG last season and Ferguson's final season where he was used a lot to do a job for the team (and in the last two seasons the team struggled) he managed 2 in 5 therefore it's not unreasonable for Louis van Gaal's expectation of 25 goals to happen this season.

I mean if Moyes can have him scoring at 0.59 goals per game in the premier league alone (not really as a striker) when we finish 7th (which across 38 matches is 22 goals) why is it unreasonable to suggest Louis van Gaal can have him scoring 25+ in all competitions actually as a striker?
 

devilish

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Empire said:
Most of what you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing, it's just waffle, the second paragraph especially and also the bit about signing cover for him.

I simply pointed out 3 in 5 is what he has so far and if he continued at that rate he would have 23 in 38. That's literally what I said, since then I have pointed out the projection based on 3 in 5 is not unreasonable because it's what Louis van Gaal has stated he expects (25 goals in all competitions) and also it's only slightly above what he has been recently scoring at mostly as an attacking midfielder.

If you think it's a stupid projection then that's your opinion but I think it's stupid to think he'll only average 3 in 5 against championship level opposition.
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I've just said that its stupid to make predictions based on a game against a club whose Championship level. I then went on describing what I think about Rooney from his earliest times with us till now. Lets say we played our first game against Birkirkara and Rooney scored 5 goals. Do you expect him to score 100 goals by the end of the season?

Mind you, stupid way of thinking doesn't translate that you're stupid. I tend to love your posts TBH. However I find that in this particular instance your line of thought was a bit erm naive
 
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Empire

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devilish said:
I've just said that its stupid to make predictions based on a game against a club whose Championship level. I then went on describing what I think about Rooney from his earliest times with us till now. Lets say we played our first game against Birkirkara and Rooney scored 5 goals. Do you expect him to score 100 goals by the end of the season?

Mind you, stupid way of thinking doesn't translate that you're stupid. I tend to love your posts TBH. However I find that in this particular instance your line of thought was a bit erm naive
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It seems you are totally ignoring my clarification of why I think he can get 3 in 5, I knew in advance of writing that post LvG's expectations is roughly 3 in 5, I also know Rooney has averaged 2.65 in 5 over the past 5 seasons (because the expectation surprised me so I checked the data to see if it was realistic), it also just so happens he has 3 in 5 this season so I simply stated to the poster who said he's not good that if he continues at this rate then he will have 23 in 38, I also said it's too early to judge him, wait until later in the season.

It should be quite obvious I mean't he can get 3 in 5 this season and not because he has scored 3 in his last 5 matches he will score 23 in 38, the fact I even said in that post we need at least 10 matches before we can judge him and Kane, it is too soon should make it obvious it's not my logic to only look at the previous 5 matches, I've never known any poster to do that.

It seems you honestly are of the opinion had Rooney not scored against Brugge my statement would have read "Rooney has 0 in 5, over 38 games that means he'll score 0 goals so you are right maybe he is no good". I mean, that's what you are saying, I would have responded with that! I've said this before and I'll say it again, some things go without saying, people write posts quickly, they aren't always clear, don't take what is written literally but try to understand what the person probably mean't.
 

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Santiago_KinderBueno said:
There we go just proved what i said; it has nothing to do woth Rooney declining; he just does not know how to operate as the spearhead of the attack.
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So all it takes to prove what you said is half a match? :lol:

You must be the most knee-jerk poster of them all.
 

Empire

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Santiago_KinderBueno said:
I said it before the game pahaha. What a slow brain you have.
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You said this game just proved what you said so we must judge Rooney's ability to play as a 9 on this game? Shall we also say Monk is a better manager than LvG?

Rooney has shown plenty of times he can play as a 9, every manager he has had has rated his ability to play 9 and 10.
 

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Empire said:
You said this game just proved what you said so we must judge Rooney's ability to play as a 9 on this game? Shall we also say Monk is a better manager than LvG?

Rooney has shown plenty of times he can play as a 9, every manager he has had has rated his ability to play 9 and 10.
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He had one good season for us as a 9; it wasnt even one of our most successful seasons. His best was playing behind a striker; i just believe its too late to adapt a player forward when the usual direction is adapting them backwards and deeper.
 

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Santiago_KinderBueno said:
Rooney isnt in decline ....
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Rooney is very clearly in decline ... not that it's a particular surprise for a striker approaching his 30th birthday. He's no longer a striker that can lead the line and is reduced to being a not very effective hybrid striker/attacking midfielder.

This thread is full of knee-jerk posts about Kane, but how many games is it now since Rooney last scored a league goal?
 

Santiago_KinderBueno

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GlastonSpur said:
Rooney is very clearly in decline ... not that it's a particular surprise for a striker approaching his 30th birthday. He's no longer a striker that can lead the line and is reduced to being a not very effective hybrid striker/attacking midfielder.

This thread is full of knee-jerk posts about Kane, but how many games is it now since Rooney last scored a league goal?
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Even if he is in decline; you are comparing to a player he never was. Only one seasom did he lead the line.

He reminds me of the shit rooney we see for england every time he plays upfront. He just cant do it.
 

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Santiago_KinderBueno said:
He had one good season for us as a 9; it wasnt even one of our most successful seasons. His best was playing behind a striker; i just believe its too late to adapt a player forward when the usual direction is adapting them backwards and deeper.
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He scored loads that season so yes he can spearhead the attack and he has played in that position in seasons outside of that for a few matches, while I don't deny he is also a very good 10, he can play striker too, he doesn't need to adapt to the position.
 

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Santiago_KinderBueno said:
The way i see it is that we currently are relying on the Rooney who plays for England. Who is utter Naff. We need a striker with even a bit more ability than hernande and put rooney back as the CF instead of januzaj or herrera.
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I can see Rooney being used at the 10 because Herrera and Januzaj don't do what the manager wants but then it will be Fellaini up top, maybe I'm wrong but I just think Louis van Gaal will do that.

His teams usually start slow before hitting form, it's far too early to judge both the manager, the team and individual performances, we'll see if he can get it to click. I also think Mourinho is right and this season the league will be won by much fewer points than usual, possibly below 80, so whoever can hit form in late october / early november and maintain has a good chance.

Now Fellaini is a player who needs to train the striker position.
 

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Empire said:
Over the past 5 seasons he has scored 86 in 162 which works out to 2.65 goals every 5 games and for most of those matches he hasn't even been the striker! So I really don't think the stat of 3 in 5 is meaningless, it's not unreasonable to predict that scoring rate this season, he has been just below that for the past 5 seasons and played many matches not as a striker.

If you think the stat is useless well that's your opinion, there is a reason Louis van Gaal and Rooney both expect 25 goals from him, the staff have obviously looked at his scoring rate, let's face it the manager isn't just going to take a random number and put all his faith in Rooney to get it without evidence he can.
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Put through on goal twice today and didnt even get a shot in
 

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Cassidy said:
Put through on goal twice today and didnt even get a shot in
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Monk has beaten LvG 3 times now, shall we sign him to be the manager?

Last season the manager was criticised for not playing Rooney as striker, this season he is criticised for playing him as striker, there is a reason he is the one employed as the manager and not you, it takes more than Rooney getting through on goal twice and not scoring for him to be dropped, although people will say Louis is stubborn. Well perhaps not having knee jerk reactions help get top football manager jobs.

And why didn't you reply to that post properly? Because your post was useless, not the stat, what could you say? Nothing.
 

Cassidy

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Empire said:
Monk has beaten LvG 3 times now, shall we sign him to be the manager?

Last season the manager was criticised for not playing Rooney as striker, this season he is criticised for playing him as striker, there is a reason he is the one employed as the manager and not you, it takes more than Rooney getting through on goal twice and not scoring for him to be dropped, although people will say Louis is stubborn. Well perhaps not having knee jerk reactions help get top football manager jobs.

And why didn't you reply to that post properly? Because your post was useless, not the stat.
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I didn't say he should be dropped. My point was and that your projection of how many goals he would get based on your sample set was wrong that was all. Go back and read my post...
 

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Empire said:
Monk has beaten LvG 3 times now, shall we sign him to be the manager?

Last season the manager was criticised for not playing Rooney as striker, this season he is criticised for playing him as striker, there is a reason he is the one employed as the manager and not you, it takes more than Rooney getting through on goal twice and not scoring for him to be dropped, although people will say Louis is stubborn. Well perhaps not having knee jerk reactions help get top football manager jobs.

And why didn't you reply to that post properly? Because your post was useless, not the stat, what could you say? Nothing.
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If we had a striker of remotely the required quality then Rooney would be dropped ages ago.

But we decided to babysit Falcao for a year and RvP declined due to physical issues. So we're out of options and stuck with a guy not fit to play as a striker for a top 10 Premier League team at the moment, let alone a team competing for any sort of title.
 

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Cassidy said:
I didn't say he should be dropped. My point was and that your projection of how many goals he would get based on your sample set was wrong that was all. Go back and read my post...
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You mean the sample set of the past five seasons? Where I clarified why I said 3 in 5, the fact Louis expects that this season (25 goals in all competitions) and then how the data suggests his realistic target should be about 3 goals every 5 matches.

If the past five seasons is a small sample size then that's a useless point.
 

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Empire said:
You mean the sample set of the past five seasons? Where I clarified why I said 3 in 5, the fact Louis expects that this season (25 goals in all competitions) and then how the data suggests his realistic target should be about 3 goals every 5 matches.

If the past five seasons is a small sample size then that's a useless point.
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The sample set was 5 games, go back and read the post. I even qualified my post with saying I was only critising the sample set.
 

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marjen said:
If we had a striker of remotely the required quality then Rooney would be dropped ages ago.

But we decided to babysit Falcao for a year and RvP declined due to physical issues. So we're out of options and stuck with a guy not fit to play as a striker for a top 10 Premier League team at the moment, let alone a team competing for any sort of title.
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In the last match Costa did nothing but complain to the ref, Kane hasn't scored yet, I think it's too early to be judging the premier league strikers.
 

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Cassidy said:
The sample set was 5 games, go back and read the post. I even qualified my post with saying I was only critising the sample set.
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And I explained what I mean't by the projection. I showed you how the 3 in 5 games stat isn't useless based on the past 5 seasons, I got no reply on that post until now when you use today's game to refute the past five seasons...
 

Cassidy

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Empire said:
And I explained what I mean't by the projection. I showed you how the 3 in 5 games stat isn't useless based on the past 5 seasons, I got no reply on that post until now when you use today's game to refute the past five seasons...
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Its a useless stat, when you include the past 5 seasons, now that is a good stat.
 

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Enigma_87 said:
And how many has Kane in his last 1000 mins in prem?
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Say we do the last 20 matches and also please understand many of these Rooney was not a striker because of last season!

Wayne Rooney - 10
Diego Costa - 8
Harry Kane - 8
 

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Cassidy said:
Its a useless stat, when you include the past 5 seasons, now that is a good stat.
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I explained where the 3 in 5 projection came from, it just so happened he was at that rate already, I was simply saying to the poster if he scores at 3 in 5 he will have done well this season, as mentioned there is a whole lot more data suggesting that is realistic.
 

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Not completely sold on him, but if we are getting rid of Hernandez and only Rooney as a senior striker then I would like to see ys spunk money on him. We are about to be in the green in terms of net spend. We better sign some good attacker else we are screwed.
 

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3 goals in 4 games for England. Pretty good imo.

England looked much better with Kane. I think even if he doesn't have a great season with Spurs, he is still a great player. Took his goal well great finish against the Swiss and San Marino
 

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Bugzy said:
3 goals in 4 games for England. Pretty good imo.

England looked much better with Kane. I think even if he doesn't have a great season with Spurs, he is still a great player. Took his goal well great finish against the Swiss and San Marino
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he might not be prolific but still have a good season, I think he will score 15 league goals anyway which would be successful season for him even in terms of goal for that shitty Spurs side IMO, He's much more than goals tough.

Anyway if he doesn't score many at least his price won't be 250m next summer we are buying him..
 

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Hed Zitin said:
I wonder what we'd pay for someone like Kane after what we've done today?
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We wouldn't is the answer. If we wanted him this summer we would have persued him.

We clearly bid in excess of €100m for Muller so would have had the £60m or so it would take to get Kane. The fact we didn't go after him tells you that we don't value him as highly as Spurs do.
 

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Pexbo said:
We wouldn't is the answer. If we wanted him this summer we would have persued him.

We clearly bid in excess of €100m for Muller so would have had the £60m or so it would take to get Kane. The fact we didn't go after him tells you that we don't value him as highly as Spurs do.
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There's a real dearth of strikers at the moment so I really think Spurs would have turned us down even if we bid £60m. I think we'll only have a chance at Kane when he kicks up a fuss to leave Spurs for CL football. Right now Spurs have no reason to sell as he seems happy there. Similar to the situation with Muller at Bayern.
 
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