Pogue, a comment please
What do the Glazers think of all this?
- Thread starter sammsky1
- Start date
Think they regret buying United but a bit of spray paint and Green & Gold won't have their knickers in a twist. They're businessmen, owners of sports teams - they know no matter what, it comes with the bread and butter.
Forcing them to sell the club so that its financial position might be improved. They took a hugely profitable club and turned it into a debt-ridden one despite jacking up ticket prices and having huge new sponsorship deals. Despite this, they're taking money out of the club for themselves in the form of fees. They've also put no money into the club, not even the money they bought it with. If you haven't noticed, many "financially intelligent" people are the reason there's a global economic crisis. There is very little trust in the financial sector these days because they have proved their idiocy.
With regards to the Ljajic transfer, the money would have been paid before the prospectus for potential investors was published. They probably wanted to have the highest profit possible to increase the attractiveness of the sale. Or Tom Cleverley's progress and Tosic's lack thereof have reduced the need for him, especially if he won't perform.
To those talking about aggressive levearged takeovers being the norm.... how come after 3 years of fairly unprecedented success on the field we cannot meet the interest repayments, never mind clear the loan?
What is going to happen to miraculously allow them service the debt (never mind pay it off, that's never going to happen)? Are we going to win everything 10 years in a row?
What is going to happen to miraculously allow them service the debt (never mind pay it off, that's never going to happen)? Are we going to win everything 10 years in a row?
It's called a Leveraged Buyout or Takeover, and is common practice in the business world.
Leveraged buyout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Five prerequisites for a good candidate-business for a leveraged buyout are as follows:-
- Low existing debt loads;
- A multi-year history of stable and recurring cash flows;
- Hard assets (property, plant and equipment, inventory, receivables) that may be used as collateral for lower cost secured debt;
- The potential for new management to make operational or other improvements to the firm to boost cash flows;
- Market conditions and perceptions that depress the valuation or stock price.
The Glazers deemed United to be meeting these conditions and acted accordingly. The debt that the club is now in is an inevitable consequence of this kind of takeover; and, as such, is not the harbinger of doom that the many will have you believe.
1. I have met gill and he's a sound bloke. You dont realise hes on shit loads of money and that he's a chairman of our club. Well thats how i felt.
2. I hate graffiti. We can make a statement to the glazers without doing that. What kind of low life scum are we for doing that. This is not how i want to be looked at when people see this in the papers and then look at me being a supporter.
3. Would you like this stuff on your home? Lets do the anti glazer campaign in a professional and adult manner.
2. I hate graffiti. We can make a statement to the glazers without doing that. What kind of low life scum are we for doing that. This is not how i want to be looked at when people see this in the papers and then look at me being a supporter.
3. Would you like this stuff on your home? Lets do the anti glazer campaign in a professional and adult manner.
I know what it's called, you numpty, I just said it.
Do you also know how many "leveraged buyouts" end? Asset stripped. You know, like flogging Ronaldo and buying.... Smalling.
Or that 70p of every pound you spend on match tickets, food and drink in the ground, programmes - even car parking - will go on interest, "management" fees and dividends.
read this....
Manchester United opens window on murky world of leveraged buy-outs - Telegraph
Do you also know how many "leveraged buyouts" end? Asset stripped. You know, like flogging Ronaldo and buying.... Smalling.
Or that 70p of every pound you spend on match tickets, food and drink in the ground, programmes - even car parking - will go on interest, "management" fees and dividends.
read this....
Manchester United opens window on murky world of leveraged buy-outs - Telegraph
Worst comparison I have ever seen! You make it seem we sold Ronaldo and bought Smalling as a replacement
Ronaldo wanted to leave, we didn't just up and sell him.I think they are a bit concerned, but only because of the bond issue. If they can't sell that, they are fecked, so they need everything to appear well.
A boycott of just one game (will never happen) or fans turning their backs would worry investors.
A boycott of just one game (will never happen) or fans turning their backs would worry investors.
The bond issue was over subscribed and sold out.
Worst comparison? How do you compare all that money coming in and feck all going back out other than to the banks?Worst comparison I have ever seen! You make it seem we sold Ronaldo and bought Smalling as a replacement
Actually, never mind Smalling, we sold Ronaldo to pay the interest. He wanted to go and they were happy to sell.
Look at the interest every year. Look at what we earn.
Good post!
You used to be funny ciderman, now you're just a fecking clown. 
Football doesn't allow for a "stable" cash flow by its very nature. United can't win everything year after year to help funding the debt. Having Old Trafford and Carrington up as collateral when the debt is steadily increasing isn't exactly comforting. "Other improvements to the firm to boost cash flows" means raising ticket prices, forcing the automatic cup scheme on already cash-strapped fans, and removing the heart and soul from Manchester United games at Old Trafford.
The people that made the club into what it is is now, the fans, are being driven farther and farther away from the club. People can't afford to go see United now, but the club are going to start selling "super duper free drinks/food/behind the scenes access" tickets so people get the "Old Trafford Experience™" without actually having to be bothered to support the team. It's now entertainment rather than football. That's a damn shame. I'd much rather have fans who'll get behind the team and support them throughout while making less money than making more and having the team play in a library.
And we're seeing now the struggles the Glazers are having with the debts they put the club in. A leveraged-buyout wouldn't be so bad if there were the prospect of repaying the debt in a semi-timely fashion. How are we supposed to do that when we're losing money unless we sell players? The team can't continue its success without adding to the squad, which affects the cash flow. One or two bad seasons and we could see ourselves in League 1...probably without Carrington and maybe Old Trafford. How many of todays fans would be in the stand then? It doesn't help that the Glazers have spent £50m on refinancing rather than investing it into the players. Or have set up ways to take out £100m from the club, if not more.
If something goes wrong, United are screwed, not the Glazers. The Glazers have to demonstrate some competence with the debt(aka reduction) and put the club into a position of eliminating the debt without the danger the club is in now.
I'm glad you think all leveraged-buyouts are the same though. Just because they happen all the time doesn't mean the risks of failure aren't too much to ask of the club.
Think what you will of me, i don't care. Someone needs to be the antithesis of all this anti-Glazer bullshit - bullshit that's gone too far and threatens to split the club along lines beyond football; all i ask is that people stop this perpetual hate-campaign and accept the Glazers as a symptom of modern life - if capitalism grates your goat so much, then see how you like North Korea.You used to be funny ciderman, now you're just a fecking clown.
Many wont admit to being of similar opinion to me - some do, and i respect them for it - Most just hate Glazer, or at least pretend to, because that's what's expected of them.
It's gone too far. Why not just accept the world as it is and move forward without the hatred and division?
Let's be honest - if it wasn't the Glazers, it would be someone else; should we hate everyone who owns United? We can all pretend to live in jelly-for-breakfast-land and say that everything would have been brilliant if the Glazers didn't exist, but that's not in any way close to being a reality.
Football's big business. It's one of the most entertaining, enjoyable, exciting and most profitable passtimes on the planet - don't whige and moan and claim indignity when those with money in their pocket treat it as such.
Nice one:- a good explanation, could you now provide a list which details the typical prevailing conditions after the bastards sell up?
it's not capitalism that is the problem. i'm as capitalist as the next guy. in general i think that the market should decide just about everything except health care. what upsets me is the apparent mismanagement of the club's resources. how can we win the premiership three years in a row, win the champion's league, make to the final and semi final of the champion's league, sell our best player for close to 100 million euros, raise ticket prices, find a better sponsorship deal, and STILL be losing money to a point where we have to do this bond deal?
It's true that I don't have direct access to their books, but if the Glazers are in a bad position financially after all of this success, then there is a major problem with their ability to manage money. And any reasonable fan should want to find a better solution. This isn't a problem with capitalism, and I don't think we should start thinking like North Koreans. I just want a better and more rational capitalist to be running the company. Or... even better, a fan with deep pockets.
I think the Glazers care feckall for all the tantrums some fans have been throwing. They have no doubt, created a bloody mess. But to sabotage the club just to get them to sell, is stupid. Some mobilizing on the part of senior members, and fans should be done to get them to the table.
Right now they seem to be oblivious to all the screaming going on.
Right now they seem to be oblivious to all the screaming going on.
Some fans: These bananas are ruining everything.
You: Food is good. Why do you hate food?
errr, explain the logic of this? How does you leaving mean they win? Is their aim to get rid of paying supporters? Of course not, its to make sure enough supporters carry on paying to pay the interest on their debts. They win if people keep feeding the club money, words and protests won't mean shit to them as long as the money keeps rolling in, the balance sheet is the be all and end all.
but if enough people do like you do then glazer and his debt will be there for ever, all he has to do is keep issuing bonds and people like you will continue to pay the interest on them, the longer it goes on the safer bet it is and the easier it becomes to sell the bonds and keep it going, reducing the pressure on glazer to sell.
The way its set up at the moment he can take cash out of the club to pay off the PIKs, they've got a revolving credit facility to pay for players so current and future cash will go on the PIKs (that they're personally responsible for) while players will be bought using the credit facility (that the club is responsible for), once the PIKs are gone all the debt left is secured on the club with a relatively manageable interest payments (because people like you keep buying the tickets) and he'll keep bonds every 8-10 years to pay back the last ones and keep paying the interest
They've won because even if I go, somebody else will come in, who frankly won't give a shit and won't fight them.
I'd rather stay and fight thank you very much.
Look through the Green and Gold thread. I have no time to explain the whole thing over and over again. It's been discussed to death.
tbh thats an excuse, attendances are already down (unoffically) and tickets are being advertised aggressively, cold calling etc, demand has peaked at these prices. Fact is if there was ever a time fans can hurt them in the wallet it's now.
I've read it, and what I said can't be argued with, which is why you didn't try
i like the analogy, but it's a little inaccurate.Some fans - These bananas are ruining everything.
Me - Well, they're in your roast dinner now, mixed in with all the gravy and stuffing and everything.
Some fans - I feckING HATE BANANAS!!!
Me - Calm down.
Some fans - NO!!! I LOVE MY ROAST DINNERS!!! THESE feckING BASTARD cnut BANANAS ARE ALL IN MY ROAST DINNER AND A feckING HATE THE JUDAS TWATTING COCKS!!! *Starts pounding the food with his fist*
Me - That's not going to help, mate.
Some fans - HATE!!! HATE!!! HATE!!! HATE BANANAS!!! LRDHB!!! JUDAS!!! KILL BANANAS!!!
Me - Can't you just pick around the bananas?
Some fans - SHUT UP!!! I feckING HATE BANANAS AND I'M NEVER EATING ROAST DINNERS AGAIN!!!
Me - *sigh*
you really are off your rocker!
Some fans - These bananas are ruining everything.
Me - Well, they're in your roast dinner now, mixed in with all the gravy and stuffing and everything.
Some fans - I feckING HATE BANANAS!!!
Me - Calm down.
Some fans - NO!!! I LOVE MY ROAST DINNERS!!! THESE feckING BASTARD cnut BANANAS ARE ALL IN MY ROAST DINNER AND A feckING HATE THE JUDAS TWATTING COCKS!!! *Starts pounding the food with his fist*
Me - That's not going to help, mate.
Some fans - HATE!!! HATE!!! HATE!!! HATE BANANAS!!! LRDHB!!! JUDAS!!! KILL BANANAS!!!
Me - Can't you just pick around the bananas?
Some fans - SHUT UP!!! I feckING HATE BANANAS AND I'M NEVER EATING ROAST DINNERS AGAIN!!!
Me - *sigh*
That's just a terrible way of looking at things.
Its also ridicuolus to call it profitable - recent events (West Ham, Liverpool, Portsmouth...) have proved that is isn't a very attractive industry to invest in!
I've said before I think ciderman is good for providing a counter argument, but still think he's wrong. Keep doing what you're doing though man, I think you secretly have it in against capitalism at could, at a push, go postal and shoot up a law firm or a group of investment bankers lunching in a trendy restaurant.
You know really that this is bad for the club and that United is not the same as a 'business', even if it shares many common factors. At the end of the day when the business goes tits up the fans who are the heart and soul of it, and their ancestry goes back over 100 years, remain and lose everything.
A Glazer can never really understand this and of course doesn't want to, just wants to make a profit. Well fair play on that but you can't expect to rape the fans for money and sell on world class players to pay for your debts which you will continually re-finance until you feel it is a prudent time to sell up and feck off, leaving behind a gawping, bleeding orifice of a club.
You know really that this is bad for the club and that United is not the same as a 'business', even if it shares many common factors. At the end of the day when the business goes tits up the fans who are the heart and soul of it, and their ancestry goes back over 100 years, remain and lose everything.
A Glazer can never really understand this and of course doesn't want to, just wants to make a profit. Well fair play on that but you can't expect to rape the fans for money and sell on world class players to pay for your debts which you will continually re-finance until you feel it is a prudent time to sell up and feck off, leaving behind a gawping, bleeding orifice of a club.
The thing is fans hate the way football has become 'business', where instead of being treated like fans who love their club our attachment to the club becomes one of 'customer'. I reckon the football cash bubble is about to burst and it's the loyal 'customers' who will be there to pick up the pieces.
The Plc was a business, but it was a well oiled machine. Ticket prices remained reasonable and fans interests where taken on board, the squad was heavily invested in as well. The Glazers took every principle the Plc board had crated and reversed it in the name of capitalism.
Well said T.
It's the peaceful but effective nature of this protest that's getting it so much media coverage, and long may it continue.
If you read the financial detail in the prospectus it's clear to see that without the Ronaldo sale we would have struggled to balance the books.
Most of the cash reserves are being transferred to the Holding company to tackle part of the piks and we are taking out a new 75m facility to fund working capital and transfer funds after players.
Basically if we hadn't sold Ronaldo we would be fecked. The piks are crippling the club so I don't buy your justification of LBOs for one minute.
Actual attendances may be down, but tickets are still selling and even though there's a few bumless seats, money is still coming in fom them. What difference will it make if ST holders boycott the rest of the season? feck all in terms of money. Green and gold is about the supporters showing to the world that we at United against the Glazers and in supporting our team. This is the first step. When we are together, if more radical action will be needed to be taken, it will be easier. This whole thing is a process, you don't snap your fingers and Glazers are gone. Those who left in 2005 know this better than anyone else. This and more are all explained tin the G&G thread, which if you had looked through, you wouldn't have been talking the same shit a the others.
Publicity is the first stage. Spread the word instead of arguing a pointless argument by citing failed means.
Well said.