Trying to break teams down by walking slowly about with the ball in our own half

noodlehair

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We did this for an entire 45 minutes today. Is this what we signed Maguire for?

Second half was a panic and a mess because we played the entire first half like it was the 93rd minute of a pre-season friendly.

People will moan about tactics, or not having players to break teams down, or Lingard controlling the ball in the same way punching a hive might control a swarm of bees. It doesn't really make much difference when we literally don't even try to win a game of football until there's half hour left and we're a goal down.

I'm sick to death of watching us lose games while our players spend over half of it just strolling about the pitch. You do not see this from any of the other top six sides. They might have bad managers or poor players in the starting line up, or no fit strikers, or whatever. They still manage to come out and actually try to win the game.

We're the equivalent of a racing driver who spends the first 50% of the race driving round like it's the wwarm up lap, and the last 50% frantically trying to overtake everyone in a panic and then crashing...then next week does the exact same thing again as if it's some kind of effective tactic.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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It comes with instruction from the coaches. We have zero pace at the back so we sit deep and that means receive the ball deep in our own half.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Shocking.

Just look at our goal & how we won the penalty, that’s how to breakthrough a team who park the bus.

Need to play quicker with good movement one touch, not easy but we should be expecting it at home against team like Palace and should be well prepare by practicing it in training.
 

Richter

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Been like this 6 years now nothing new I'm as annoyed as the rest but think this is on the players as much as the managers.
 

Ludens the Red

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Was at the game today, admittedly ive not been to many in recent years but I found it astonishing how bad our off the ball movement and pass and move was, especially considering it was meant to be something Solskjaer had us working on in pre season.
People just stand still... all the time, except for the player who was playing for Swansea in the championship last season, go figure.

Whenever a player is being marked, they’ll make zero attempt to lose the marker or make runs and for some reason every player wants 700 touches of the ball. I couldn’t actually believe how bad it was today.
Time and time again wether it was Shaw, Young or Wan Bissaka, they would rarely make an overlapping run when one of our forwards had the ball out wide.

These are literally basics, and we can’t and won’t do them. Gonna be a long season because these sort of tactics are what we’ll encounter in 75% of our games this season.
 

NJM78

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I joked about it being like a black and white game footage from 100 years ago, some of the players could have been smoking a pipe or sipping on a hot bovril, it was so fecking pedestrian.
 

vanderpants

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It's frustrating, .mainly because we have very little creative players in the squad. We are boring and predictable
 

Ace of Spades

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To be fair to Palace, there was not a lot of space given by them. You need that extra bit of quality to lose your players, which not a lot of our players have.
 

steffyr2

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I was watching Nani play last night (on tv, MLS game, Orlando vs Atlanta). It was a terrible game, players couldn't hit the goal for anything....but they had Nani on the left side cutting in, moving the ball, cutting around players.
Wow it brought back memories. I assume he's slow now, but it was nice to see someone who could control the ball.
2nd half today, I noticed we had no center mid to distribute. And really no one on the left either. I guess everyone was up front waiting for the ball, not a great plan.
 

Snow

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We've got Rashford and James on the wings who've got two modes on them. Get the ball and stand with it or kick it ahead of themselves and run with little thought of what they're going to end up doing besides crossing into the box where we only have Martial.

Up top Martial is very much isolated. He has to play like a Huddersfield striker but the difference is that we actually have the ball and yet we can't get him involved.

Behind him is Lingard who is really ineffective at receiving the ball and then committing the ball even further up the pitch. Usually he passes it back from which it came. He finds space well enough, he's decent at pressing but when it comes to actually using the ball we want someone else to use it.

It's so poor from the front 4 that Wolves and Palace have effectively been able to commit 2 players to stop Pogba. Pogba isn't Messi, he doesn't handle being double marked like that so he's effectively been nullified for the most part. If teams had trouble dealing with our attackers Pogba would be lethal behind them.
 

VP89

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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
It comes with instruction from the coaches. We have zero pace at the back so we sit deep and that means receive the ball deep in our own half.
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This. Coaches don't just select a side and tell them to do what they like. There's a system of how to play with and without the ball, and for whatever reason we look just as shite with the ball as we did with Jose. I'd like to see the win % between the two to be fair.

As a minimum, I'm sure we haven't materially imrpoved in results.
 

Sp00ks11

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Currently sitting here watching Liverpool show how you rip teams apart, their players never have the ball for more than a second or two whereas us it's constantly dawdling on the ball.
 

NJM78

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VP89 said:
This. Coaches don't just select a side and tell them to do what they like. There's a system of how to play with and without the ball, and for whatever reason we look just as shite with the ball as we did with Jose. I'd like to see the win % between the two to be fair.

As a minimum, I'm sure we haven't materially imrpoved in results.
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Ole lost about third of his games so far.
 

K13

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noodlehair said:
I'm sick to death of watching us lose games while our players spend over half of it just strolling about the pitch. You do not see this from any of the other top six sides. They might have bad managers or poor players in the starting line up, or no fit strikers, or whatever. They still manage to come out and actually try to win the game.
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I watched Man City v West Ham and Spurs and Liverpool V Norwich there was lot of walking about the pitch as well.

I just think it is normal for August. They all have a long hard season ahead, the weather is a little warmer and they are at the start of their campaign. Most are still doing intensive fitness.

We were just unlucky, should have had 2 penalties, Shaw got injured in their buildup that left us light at the back and we hit the post with a penalty. We will get a little bit of luck in future when we least expect it. There is a long way to go.
 

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noodlehair said:
We did this for an entire 45 minutes today. Is this what we signed Maguire for?

Second half was a panic and a mess because we played the entire first half like it was the 93rd minute of a pre-season friendly.

People will moan about tactics, or not having players to break teams down, or Lingard controlling the ball in the same way punching a hive might control a swarm of bees. It doesn't really make much difference when we literally don't even try to win a game of football until there's half hour left and we're a goal down.

I'm sick to death of watching us lose games while our players spend over half of it just strolling about the pitch. You do not see this from any of the other top six sides. They might have bad managers or poor players in the starting line up, or no fit strikers, or whatever. They still manage to come out and actually try to win the game.

We're the equivalent of a racing driver who spends the first 50% of the race driving round like it's the wwarm up lap, and the last 50% frantically trying to overtake everyone in a panic and then crashing...then next week does the exact same thing again as if it's some kind of effective tactic.
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We basically wasted the entire first half today by doing feck all... When they scored I reckon our players went to the ref and asked him if they're actually allowed to do that in the first half.
 

kouroux

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We have no clear defined way of playing football I feel. We just throw random formations and expect players to magically perform well. That's on the coaching.
Regarding the players, there are too many of them who are not good enough on the ball to develop, intelligent enough with their movement and inventive enough with their passing
 

FahadiHossein

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If you are watching the game between Liverpool and Arsenal, you could see that Arsenal set up a low block and Liverpool had difficulties breaking them down.
It is that hard to break a team that sets up a low block at top level (and Hodgson is an expert in this).

What made the difference was a good corner and a penalty.
 

Random Task

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Our team is most effective when set up to counter-attack rather than one that is forced to be creative. We're dangerous against teams who are prepared to attack us, which is around 9 or 10 games over the course of the season, the other 40 odd games are against park the bus type teams, where the need for a creative midfield is essential - which we don't have, not even close.

That said, I thought we played well for the first 30 minutes; the high press was working, we created chances and often got in behind the Palace backline. We looked good at that point. Then they go and grab a goal from nothing and our players drop their heads, lose faith, and end up waltzing around the pitch looking clueless.

There is a weak mentality lurking within this team and shows itself whenever they come under the slightest bit of pressure. Jose alluded to this problem a lot last year, Neville and Souness did too. It needs addressing just as much as the midfield problem.
 

noodlehair

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FahadiHossein said:
If you are watching the game between Liverpool and Arsenal, you could see that Arsenal set up a low block and Liverpool had difficulties breaking them down.
It is that hard to break a team that sets up a low block at top level (and Hodgson is an expert in this).

What made the difference was a good corner and a penalty.
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I did watch it and what you don't see is Liverpool players walking across the pitch with the ball. Or standing still withbthe ball while every other Liverpool player stands still without the ball.

Even if they are not creating chances, they move the ball, move opposition players and create situations where there is a chance if something happening. If not they are at least working the other team and tiring them. They also get a set piece and then have a plan. They don't just let Salah boot every free-kick and corner to nowhere.

None of this has anything to do with them being a very good team either. It's just basic levels of effort and coaching. You don't see other teams do what we do where they just basically give the opposition a free hit for 45 minutes. The first half today was worse than what you will see from any other PL side this season in terms of how to approach a game. It has nothing to do with the quality or type of player. It is terrible coaching and terrible attitude. There is no plan or effort to make something happen.
 

bazalini

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I blame manager. These players are not Sh1te. Pogba does not win a World Cup if he is sh1te.

The whole thing is a disaster. Absolute disaster
 

bazalini

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I'm going to set up a Gofundme page to pay Ole out of this contract. He was sh1te with Cardiff. He has done nothing to show me any different
 

Raw

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We've seen it far too often since Fergie left. There's no plan or urgency to get the first goal then try and kill the game off by getting more before half time. It's either that, or we start really well for about 20 minutes then...nothing.

It's remarkable how consistently we manage this same style of shiteness over different managers and playing styles.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Our movement is terrible and we move the ball too slow.

It's been a problem for years.

People talk about defense, but our attack post Fergie has easily been the biggest the problem we've had. We look toothless.
 

Lee565

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Looking at us compared to Chelsea, they will.probably benefit more from this season than what we will in terms of going forward into the next season, despite being open at the back Frank has chelsea playing in a nice fluid way and actually using young talent with good technical ability, then there is us with Solskjear's uncreative counter attacking football fit for a mid table side that only works against teams that are willing to attack us and still continues to use bloody lingard over gomes because he can run around a lot.
 

DWelbz19

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Teams weaker than us will take their chances defending as deep as possible because they know there is absolutely zero urgency, creativity, and guile in our squad should Paul Pogba have a bad game.

Teams with a little bit about them (the midtable sides) will try and actually match us for portions of the game, as they know our midfield is there to be overran.

It's a messy situation at the moment.

As mentioned above, it doesn't actually look like we're prepared to deal with teams when we aren't set up to break.
 

simplyared

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noodlehair said:
We did this for an entire 45 minutes today. Is this what we signed Maguire for?

Second half was a panic and a mess because we played the entire first half like it was the 93rd minute of a pre-season friendly.

People will moan about tactics, or not having players to break teams down, or Lingard controlling the ball in the same way punching a hive might control a swarm of bees. It doesn't really make much difference when we literally don't even try to win a game of football until there's half hour left and we're a goal down.

I'm sick to death of watching us lose games while our players spend over half of it just strolling about the pitch. You do not see this from any of the other top six sides. They might have bad managers or poor players in the starting line up, or no fit strikers, or whatever. They still manage to come out and actually try to win the game.

We're the equivalent of a racing driver who spends the first 50% of the race driving round like it's the wwarm up lap, and the last 50% frantically trying to overtake everyone in a panic and then crashing...then next week does the exact same thing again as if it's some kind of effective tactic.
Click to expand...
This is a good description of how these so called footballers are expressing themselves out on the pitch. It's just painful to watch. Bin these ridiculous tactics and start playing football. Or get Keeno in to kick their arses!
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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golden_blunder said:
The sideways passing between cbs is starting to do my head in
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One of the problems with the double pivot in midfield. I hate the positioning of a double pivot midfield, because the midfielders sometimes block each other's path and it forces more sideways passing with the center backs.

Hopefully we just go back to a 3 man midfield. 1 holding midfielder and not 2.
 

Joga Bonito

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Snow said:
We've got Rashford and James on the wings who've got two modes on them. Get the ball and stand with it or kick it ahead of themselves and run with little thought of what they're going to end up doing besides crossing into the box where we only have Martial.

Up top Martial is very much isolated. He has to play like a Huddersfield striker but the difference is that we actually have the ball and yet we can't get him involved.

Behind him is Lingard who is really ineffective at receiving the ball and then committing the ball even further up the pitch. Usually he passes it back from which it came. He finds space well enough, he's decent at pressing but when it comes to actually using the ball we want someone else to use it.

It's so poor from the front 4 that Wolves and Palace have effectively been able to commit 2 players to stop Pogba. Pogba isn't Messi, he doesn't handle being double marked like that so he's effectively been nullified for the most part. If teams had trouble dealing with our attackers Pogba would be lethal behind them.
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Good post
 

17Larsson

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I don't understand the reluctance to try to do something that might result in a goal.
They are very often in a good position to cross the ball in but rarely do. I know we have a lone striker and maybe he's not as good as someone like Yorke or RvN for getting on the end of crosses but the more times the ball is in the box the more chance we have of scoring.

Are we that afraid of relinquishing possession to Palace at home that we'd rather not try to score?
 

Foxbatt

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bazalini said:
I blame manager. These players are not Sh1te. Pogba does not win a World Cup if he is sh1te.

The whole thing is a disaster. Absolute disaster
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Spot on. James Milner and Henderson and Wijnaldum are not much better than Pogba, Fred and Scott. We simply cannot set up this way. It is utterly ridiculous. We need a holding player and then play two midfield players and an attacking midfield player and two strikers. I would push Lindelof into midfield and bring Smalling back with Maguire and then let Pogba and Scott/ Fred play as the midfield players and play Fred/Gomes as the attacking midfield player and play Rashford and Martial up front together.
Now people will say no width but width is created not by a player being dedicated to playing on the touchline but creating that space depending on the situation.
 

AshRK

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You can have all the attacking players but surely players have to step up. We all sound like a broken record but it is true most of.our players are not that good like we think they are. I remember there were numerous occasions where lingard could not control the damn football. Ole like every other previous manager will become the target when in reality the focus should always been on the board. Where are the glazers out bandwagon gone now.
 

noodlehair

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golden_blunder said:
The sideways passing between cbs is starting to do my head in
Click to expand...
I didn't want to sign Maguire last year because of his love of just walking about aimlessly with the ball, but I convinced myself he would improve our defending. If we're still going to defend like clowns then he is offering nothing other than walking about aimlessly with the ball, which is something most of our players are already very good at. We're back to this thing of people thinking that a centreback taking ages to pass the ball means they are good with the ball, rather than just slow with it. Both Maguire and Lindelof played simple passes straight to Palace players often enough to rival Smalling. Smalling would probably actually take less time to do it.

Pogba is the only player in our team who gets fed up with it and comes and takes the ball off them, but then he just tries something impossible half the time. McTominay does not even get into a position where he can be passed the ball, which makes him a pointless player in these games. Lingard exactly the same with the added bonus that he also tackles himself on all of the two occasions a half he touches the ball.

I just want the team to show some kind of desire to actually try to win the game. Even if they're not very good at it, at least try. When no one is doing anything you expect the players to realise and show some initiative, or the next game to make sure they start with more tempo and purpose...when that doesn't happen you expect the management and coaches to pick up on it. You could tell literally within 5 minutes today that it was going to be shite, because we were already walking about as if we'd won the game, straight from the kick off we were at it. If you're on the bench watching that you can see the same thing so get hold of the players and change something.
 

noodlehair

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AshRK said:
You can have all the attacking players but surely players have to step up. We all sound like a broken record but it is true most of.our players are not that good like we think they are. I remember there were numerous occasions where lingard could not control the damn football. Ole like every other previous manager will become the target when in reality the focus should always been on the board. Where are the glazers out bandwagon gone now.
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Teams with worse players than us show more purpose in trying to win a game though, so it isn't as easy as that. You wont see any other premier league team show as little purpose as we routinely do, unless the manager is about to be sacked in order to try and save them from relegation. We were at it last season under Jose and now again under Ole, even if Jose was on the brink of a sacking Ole certainly isn't at that stage, so it's not down to the players giving up on him.

Norwich against Newcastle were lively, move the ball quickly and look to create space and chances. Norwich have worse players than us.

It's utterly baffling.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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AshRK said:
You can have all the attacking players but surely players have to step up. We all sound like a broken record but it is true most of.our players are not that good like we think they are. I remember there were numerous occasions where lingard could not control the damn football. Ole like every other previous manager will become the target when in reality the focus should always been on the board. Where are the glazers out bandwagon gone now.
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However you feel about our players, we should be showing way more vs Palace.
 

MikeKing

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I think it is ironic when we win games and you'll have people nitpicking that we didn't have enough possession and that it means weakness. "We need to control a game" That is what we did really, that is how possession looks like when you don't win. Possession is about keeping the ball, not give it away running at goal. You can play a lot less safe in possession against Palace just to let them come at you and open themselves up, then we strike.

I truly feel the club is in a bit of a predicament in terms of style. Sometimes we play to our strengths and when that works great, now next game we'll want to improve our "possession" so we start to play a whole different game. It is madness. Possession is good after you've scored, but there is simply no need to walk around "controlling" a game before we have scored.
 

Mcking

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noodlehair said:
I didn't want to sign Maguire last year because of his love of just walking about aimlessly with the ball, but I convinced myself he would improve our defending. If we're still going to defend like clowns then he is offering nothing other than walking about aimlessly with the ball, which is something most of our players are already very good at. We're back to this thing of people thinking that a centreback taking ages to pass the ball means they are good with the ball, rather than just slow with it. Both Maguire and Lindelof played simple passes straight to Palace players often enough to rival Smalling. Smalling would probably actually take less time to do it.

Pogba is the only player in our team who gets fed up with it and comes and takes the ball off them, but then he just tries something impossible half the time. McTominay does not even get into a position where he can be passed the ball, which makes him a pointless player in these games. Lingard exactly the same with the added bonus that he also tackles himself on all of the two occasions a half he touches the ball.

I just want the team to show some kind of desire to actually try to win the game. Even if they're not very good at it, at least try. When no one is doing anything you expect the players to realise and show some initiative, or the next game to make sure they start with more tempo and purpose...when that doesn't happen you expect the management and coaches to pick up on it. You could tell literally within 5 minutes today that it was going to be shite, because we were already walking about as if we'd won the game, straight from the kick off we were at it. If you're on the bench watching that you can see the same thing so get hold of the players and change something.
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I think Maguire was the only one - alongside Pogba and AWB perhaps - who was trying to be constructive with his passing. He played some very good long passes out to the left wing, played the through pass for Rashford and generally brought the ball forward well. The problem is that the ball kept coming back to him. Daniel James, Lingard, McTominay...were all controlling the ball backwards, passing towards our own half, and were reluctant to take on the opponent. It was like the priority was retaining the ball and avoiding confrontation with the Palace players..
 
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