That was really disappointing, coddling the players won't help. The space we gave West Ham on defense was criminal, literally painful to watch. Matic was the worst, we can't carry our defensive midfielder on defense! The way we sat off them for the first goal was disgusting.Not according to Ole he's happy with what he's seen in this regard because his post match comments stated he was happy with the attitude / desire of the players. The truth is we have a mediocre manager, we are not going to just outplay the opposition and break them down when the coach is if not more inept than the opponent manager.
Enlighten me, Moyes, LvG, Jose and Ole then please?You cannot claim the high ground in the first post when you're coming out with such bullshit in your second post, sorry.
Condescending and stupid. Of course he van handle stars and bg players, he was feckin one of them!!! United was playing very good until the injuries came last spring. It started well this season again, then injuries. Might it not be that there is need for players that can play his style, and that the current squad is not good enough to handle a lot of injuries and rotation? Could it be that things will get better over time, that there actually was a plan behind the THREE years? Do you really think you build a new team, style and culture so quickly? It is ok to be disappointed, but try and use some pragmatic sense too. This will take time. And several new players in with both skills and mentality for the job asked of them. That the United squad is expensive is a.. yes! That it is so very very good is wrong. There is a lot of talent but not all talent is consistent, and there are not enough leaders and matured players for stability.Fact is, Ole's used to working with Cardiff and Molde quality players and the performances associated with players of that standard. As a manager, h doesnt actually have hands-on experience of working with top-class performers or performances so it is kind of understandable that he seems quite satisfied with what he's seeing. He has no point of reference to compare it to, as a manager.
I'm fairly sure there must be instructions, but when you get performances like the first half today or against Palace, it's equally obvious they either aren't being followed or that people aren't working hard enough to follow them. Or not enough onus is being put on the players to be bang at it, or on what to do in certain situations.I think it's a coordination and planning thing. Some players look like they want to press (Peireira, and occasionally Rashford today), while others can't/ won't/ aren't asked to. That is a worse situation than no one pressing - it's an all or nothing thing. Else you just end up with gaps all over the pitch.
It's pretty damning that I'm not sure which players are obeying the instructions and which aren't. If there even are any instructions.
Yep. It goes back to Fergie’s final years. The difference being the squad was littered with world class players and the competition wasn’t as strong. Completely different players, different manager, same attitude of passing to the full back and pinging it down the line because no one in midfield has actually bothered moving to make space.Probably merge this with the classic Zombie Football thread.
Very interesting point about how the attitudes have been passed on. I subscribe to this notion.I get the feeling that the senior members of the squad are simply going through the motions and have been for years, passing this mentality on from group to group.
Under Moyes the likes of Rio, Vidic and RVP clearly had no respect for the manager, which at the time you could appreciate when they were being told to monitor how the likes of Jagielka defended.
Under Van Gaal we had the same issue with Rooney, Di Maria, Falcao, Depay, Schweinsteiger etc. They seemed to be simply going through the motions.
It briefly changed early on under Jose but again (including the majority of his signings)... The likes of Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan and Shaw just don't seem to be motivated whatsoever.
Now we see the same with Mata, Matic, Pogba, Shaw and even Lingard who you'd expect to rely on at least from a being arsed perspective.
I do wonder whether we need a complete cull next Summer in tandem with a strong manager to stamp it out. Get rid of Jones, Bailly, Rojo, Young, Matic, Mata and Pogba (inc Sanchez). Commit a £400m budget to identify players with a different mentality, which in truth Ole seems to have targeted with Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James.
I've had employees before that infect everyone around them and turn relatively good staff into complete wasters. The problem is that if they aren't gotten rid of quickly the others don't return to their former selves even after the bad eggs are removed; they replace them.
I get the feeling we have a similar situation with a rotten and negative core of the squad passing on their toxicity from group to group. Especially when the same players know it's likely to be the manager and not them who get sodded off.
I think that's partly true. You can say that managers will always try to cover their own mistakes and you might be right but LVG and Jose commented many times how they found it difficult to get some of these players motivated. LVG had one game against Everton where he said post match that he knew something was wrong with the attitude of the players straight from the warm up, you had Jose publicly saying that it was difficult to get his players motivated to play in the Europa League, and then the match against Huddersfield in 17/18 again where he said that they just weren't up for it. Obviously many different types of players have come and gone in that time but the mentality isn't changing.I get the feeling that the senior members of the squad are simply going through the motions and have been for years, passing this mentality on from group to group.
Under Moyes the likes of Rio, Vidic and RVP clearly had no respect for the manager, which at the time you could appreciate when they were being told to monitor how the likes of Jagielka defended.
Under Van Gaal we had the same issue with Rooney, Di Maria, Falcao, Depay, Schweinsteiger etc. They seemed to be simply going through the motions.
It briefly changed early on under Jose but again (including the majority of his signings)... The likes of Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan and Shaw just don't seem to be motivated whatsoever.
Now we see the same with Mata, Matic, Pogba, Shaw and even Lingard who you'd expect to rely on at least from a being arsed perspective.
I do wonder whether we need a complete cull next Summer in tandem with a strong manager to stamp it out. Get rid of Jones, Bailly, Rojo, Young, Matic, Mata and Pogba (inc Sanchez). Commit a £400m budget to identify players with a different mentality, which in truth Ole seems to have targeted with Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James.
I've had employees before that infect everyone around them and turn relatively good staff into complete wasters. The problem is that if they aren't gotten rid of quickly the others don't return to their former selves even after the bad eggs are removed; they replace them.
I get the feeling we have a similar situation with a rotten and negative core of the squad passing on their toxicity from group to group. Especially when the same players know it's likely to be the manager and not them who get sodded off.
You miss the point Mata got a 2 year dealWell, either Ole believes Pereira and Mata are great players OR he believes they are the two players he has to make do with, so little point in highlighting their deficiencies publicly....I think the latter is more likely
My first job in management I had a very similar issue.I think that's partly true. You can say that managers will always try to cover their own mistakes and you might be right but LVG and Jose commented many times how they found it difficult to get some of these players motivated. LVG had one game against Everton where he said post match that he knew something was wrong with the attitude of the players straight from the warm up, you had Jose publicly saying that it was difficult to get his players motivated to play in the Europa League, and then the match against Huddersfield in 17/18 again where he said that they just weren't up for it. Obviously many different types of players have come and gone in that time but the mentality isn't changing.
There's an obvious lack of quality in the squad but there's a lack of character/leadership too and it's gone on for a long time.
I don’t miss the point at all. It’s well known our managers don’t negotiate contract renewalsYou miss the point Mata got a 2 year deal
No manager negotiates the deals. But he tells the club if he needs to keep the player or not. It should have been a noI don’t miss the point at all. It’s well known our managers don’t negotiate contract renewals
Ole judges their quality. He actually thinks it's fine to depend on Rashford and Martial for goals this season. That's not just the boards failures but our managers own delusion.You can have all the attacking players but surely players have to step up. We all sound like a broken record but it is true most of.our players are not that good like we think they are. I remember there were numerous occasions where lingard could not control the damn football. Ole like every other previous manager will become the target when in reality the focus should always been on the board. Where are the glazers out bandwagon gone now.
Aye. It's that thing of knowing what they're going to do and stopping it being two very different things. In days of yore people knew Fergie's teams would throw the kitchen sink at you if we needed a goal in the last ten minutes, but avoiding being hit by said sink was very difficult.I can tell you how City, Liverpool and Spurs are structured to attack throughout all the various phases on the field. It's very obvious, in fact. What I can't tell you is how we're structurally set up. It isn't obvious. There's no clear and defined pattern. There's no tactical repetition. No sequences of moves that I can oftentimes identify with coaching work. Most of it looks ad-hoc, completely improvised in the moment. Regardless of the results the one thing we really need this season is a clear and obvious system. Pressing isn't just running about more. Counter attack isn't just knocking it up to Rashy. It's much more meticulously planned than that. This is what we need to see. Ole either implements it with his current coaching group or he brings in the necessary specialists, instead.
This was maddeningly stupid on his part to be fair. Regardless of whether either can score enough goals, assuming both would be fit for all 60 odd games of the season is just plain idiocy. It's not as if the situation we had in the second half yesterday was exactly a surprise. It was just a case of when that would happen and how often.Ole judges their quality. He actually thinks it's fine to depend on Rashford and Martial for goals this season. That's not just the boards failures but our managers own delusion.
Agreed. It drives me fecking insane watching them.Another 45 minutes of this today.
We're away at West Ham, with a weakened side, under pressure to win, and with the exception of James, Pereira and Bissaka, we stroll about like a pack of lazy twats.
I can't get my head around this team. There's actually some kind of weird determination that exists to go into games with a terrible attitude.
Why is it so hard for a grouo of professional footballers to start a game of football with the right attitude?
This 100%. Even teams below us in the league look like better teams. You can see a tactical style, strategy or gameplan. Sure, it doesn't work every week but they stick to it as it is utilising their strengths and shielding their weaknesses.What I can't tell you is how we're structurally set up. It isn't obvious. There's no clear and defined pattern. There's no tactical repetition. No sequences of moves that I can oftentimes identify with coaching work. Most of it looks ad-hoc, completely improvised in the moment.
