Repercussions of ESL failure (Investment)

Adisa · Apr 21, 2021

Tried looking for a thread that covered this topic but can't find any.
This is specific to us with regards to our American owners. Liverpool and Arsenal are probably in the same boat. Laurie Whitwell made a key point regarding our American owners. They view the way the European football system, especially the transfer system as unsustainable. I think we are about to enter a period of very very little investment in transfer fees as long as the Glazers are around.
Could we see the Glazers and other clubs pushing for an MLS like transfer system?

vidic blood & sand · Apr 21, 2021

Adisa said:
Tried looking for a thread that covered this topic but can't find any.
This is specific to us with regards to our American owners. Liverpool and Arsenal are probably in the same boat. Laurie Whitwell made a key point regarding our American owners. They view the way the European football system, especially the transfer system as unsustainable. I think we are about to enter a period of very very little investment in transfer fees as long as the Glazers are around.
Could we see the Glazers and other clubs pushing for an MLS like transfer system?

Spending big money on the wrong players is unsustainable for the top six. United have pissed huge money away on transfers that haven't worked. They should look into this.

Smores · Apr 21, 2021

Just another idea that would favour the top clubs. If clubs want to limit their financial exposure and risk they just need to get to grips with wages and FFP.

Inigo Montoya · Apr 21, 2021

Adisa said:
Tried looking for a thread that covered this topic but can't find any.
This is specific to us with regards to our American owners. Liverpool and Arsenal are probably in the same boat. Laurie Whitwell made a key point regarding our American owners. They view the way the European football system, especially the transfer system as unsustainable. I think we are about to enter a period of very very little investment in transfer fees as long as the Glazers are around.
Could we see the Glazers and other clubs pushing for an MLS like transfer system?

Which is?...

Kingantti1874 · Apr 21, 2021

How about the 12 teams try living within their means. If you don’t have £200m for transfers don’t spend it, if you can’t afford £500k per week wages don’t offer it. These clubs are not “entitled” to win, they are no “entitled” sign all of the best players. In fact to do so simply cheapens the product

golden_blunder · Apr 21, 2021

Here’s a tip, don’t buy a fecking football club over here if you’re going to moan about transfer payments. It’s part and parcel of the game

Darlington Padgett · Apr 21, 2021

Inigo Montoya said:
Which is?...

No transfers, they just trade players matching salaries. When a player goes out of contract they go to a free agency pool and they can negotiate with any team that can fit their salary. This is all based on a salary cap system.

tjb · Apr 21, 2021

Darlington Padgett said:
No transfers, they just trade players matching salaries. When a player goes out of contract they go to a free agency pool and they can negotiate with any team that can fit their salary. This is all based on a salary cap system.

Its moving in that direction slightly, transfer fees will always exist, but to get the Neymar's, Mbappe's etc swaps will have to be orchestrated, as the cash equivalent is too steep.

Adam-Utd · Apr 21, 2021

They just spent big to acquire Tom Brady who lead them to the Superbowl. Surely if anything - that now makes them realise how important a top class addition is?

I guess it depends whether they actually want to win in football, or just keep us good enough that we remain popular.

Adisa · Apr 21, 2021

Adam-Utd said:
They just spent big to acquire Tom Brady who lead them to the Superbowl. Surely if anything - that now makes them realise how important a top class addition is?

I guess it depends whether they actually want to win in football, or just keep us good enough that we remain popular.

Brady was a free agent. $50m over two years. The Glazer and I guess Flo and Angelli's argument is that for top clubs to carry on spending the sort of money they have been over the last decade, they need to significantly increase revenue streams or the whole thing could go bust. Not saying I agree.

Darlington Padgett · Apr 21, 2021

tjb said:
Its moving in that direction slightly, transfer fees will always exist, but to get the Neymar's, Mbappe's etc swaps will have to be orchestrated, as the cash equivalent is too steep.

Yes, players are getting too expensive. Bayern has worked with free agency with great results.

el3mel · Apr 21, 2021

I would be surprised if our budget this summer is more than 50m.

Darlington Padgett · Apr 21, 2021

Adam-Utd said:
They just spent big to acquire Tom Brady who lead them to the Superbowl. Surely if anything - that now makes them realise how important a top class addition is?

I guess it depends whether they actually want to win in football, or just keep us good enough that we remain popular.

It was actually a multi-year project, not just getting Brady. They've actually done a fantastic job drafting and getting the right players and Brady was that last missing piece. Teams have salary caps, so they didn't spend any extra money on him.
They probably saw they could be succesful with a system like that and wanted to replicate it with United.

Logit · Apr 21, 2021

The Glazers were probably banking on the ESL paying for the much-needed development of Old Trafford. The competitiveness of Premier League necessitates large transfer spending which means there’s not a lot left to pay for a stadium appropriate for a club of United’s stature especially when the owners are insistent on taking millions of pounds of dividends each year.

VP89 · Apr 21, 2021

Logit said:
The Glazers were probably banking on the ESL paying for the much-needed development of Old Trafford. The competitiveness of Premier League necessitates large transfer spending which means there’s not a lot left to pay for a stadium appropriate for a club of United’s stature especially when the owners are insistent on taking millions of pounds of dividends each year.

How much is it for some maintenance work on OT relative to transfer budgets? God knows but I'd imagine it's not THAT costly to fix a leaky roof relative to buying Jadon Sancho?

GBBQ · Apr 21, 2021

Darlington Padgett said:
Yes, players are getting too expensive. Bayern has worked with free agency with great results.

Yeah i think we'll see a lot more of this happening in the market, many big players are running down their contracts so they can see whats out there. Its better for clubs and its better for players.

tjb · Apr 21, 2021

Darlington Padgett said:
Yes, players are getting too expensive. Bayern has worked with free agency with great results.

TBH the market does need to crash, the costs are far too excessive. The free agencies are also a good medium, but they have to figure out a way to reduce agent and sign on costs. That way more players are able to take up that option without cost equivalents still being paid out.

Darlington Padgett · Apr 21, 2021

GBBQ said:
Yeah i think we'll see a lot more of this happening in the market, many big players are running down their contracts so they can see whats out there. Its better for clubs and its better for players.

Big teams are also investing in their academies and getting young prospects.

Darlington Padgett · Apr 21, 2021

tjb said:
TBH the market does need to crash, the costs are far too excessive. The free agencies are also a good medium, but they have to figure out a way to reduce agent and sign on costs. That way more players are able to take up that option without cost equivalents still being paid out.

They can try to implement a tier system with a transfer cap. For example players from Tier A can cost as much as 100m. The only problem is who gets to determine the tiers, but something along those lines could be the way forward.

GBBQ · Apr 21, 2021

Darlington Padgett said:
Big teams are also investing in their academies and getting young prospects.

yeah and you can see with our attempts to hoover up young talent we're hoping that the investment in youth will lead to reduced outgoings in the future. It would be great to have another Class of '92 as a core of the team augmented each season by one or two key signings.

Amadaeus · Apr 21, 2021

The one few positive about ole regime is that he has been better in the market than our past few managers. So this will definitely not be the time to lower investment despite spending more than any other club in the last few years beside Manchester city.

Cassidy · Apr 21, 2021

Adisa said:
Tried looking for a thread that covered this topic but can't find any.
This is specific to us with regards to our American owners. Liverpool and Arsenal are probably in the same boat. Laurie Whitwell made a key point regarding our American owners. They view the way the European football system, especially the transfer system as unsustainable. I think we are about to enter a period of very very little investment in transfer fees as long as the Glazers are around.
Could we see the Glazers and other clubs pushing for an MLS like transfer system?

Well it is... but screw them can we just get them out
Its easy to fix the transfer system and that it to have enforced financial controls and caps

OutOfTowner · Apr 21, 2021

golden_blunder said:
Here’s a tip, don’t buy a fecking football club over here if you’re going to moan about transfer payments. It’s part and parcel of the game

Also don't buy a football club if you don't actually have money to buy said football club.

Inigo Montoya · Apr 21, 2021

Darlington Padgett said:
No transfers, they just trade players matching salaries. When a player goes out of contract they go to a free agency pool and they can negotiate with any team that can fit their salary. This is all based on a salary cap system.

Which exists in all their major sports if I’m not mistaken

Inigo Montoya · Apr 21, 2021

OutOfTowner said:
Also don't buy a football club if you don't actually have money to buy said football club.

And don’t float it on the stock market then moan when people you don’t like end up buying it

Adisa · Apr 21, 2021

VP89 said:
How much is it for some maintenance work on OT relative to transfer budgets? God knows but I'd imagine it's not THAT costly to fix a leaky roof relative to buying Jadon Sancho?

Redevelopment for a stadium like ours would cost 9 figures easily. Those in the know can put me straight.

VP89 · Apr 21, 2021

Adisa said:
Redevelopment for a stadium like ours would cost more 9 figures easily. Those in the know can put me straight.

I'd prefer them to put the roof straight first.

MinGin · Apr 21, 2021

Inigo Montoya said:
Which is?...

Cap the max salary related to revenue and create a trade system.
So that they can put the transfer fee & the rest of the revenue to the pocket.

golden_blunder · Apr 21, 2021

OutOfTowner said:
Also don't buy a football club if you don't actually have money to buy said football club.

Good point

Lemansky · Apr 21, 2021

Amadaeus said:
The one few positive about ole regime is that he has been better in the market than our past few managers. So this will definitely not be the time to lower investment despite spending more than any other club in the last few years beside Manchester city.

The only few positive? There have been loads of positives under his regime.

NicolaSacco · Apr 21, 2021

GBBQ said:
Yeah i think we'll see a lot more of this happening in the market, many big players are running down their contracts so they can see whats out there. Its better for clubs and its better for players.

How can it be better for both? Assuming you mean financially better of course. If players get higher wages it's the club paying for it (good for the player but not the club), if the player gets lower wages then it's good for the club, not the player. If it's transfer fees then it's equally good or bad depending on whether you are the selling or buying club.

McTerminator · Apr 21, 2021

A review of transfer fees would need to be global and accompanied by a global salary cap. There would also need to be a review on how football clubs use their profits I.e grass roots projects, ticket prices, community outreach.

almost impossible to pull off, but if it could be done and done well I’d be in favour.

Offsideagain · Apr 21, 2021

When asked why City were so good, Guardiola replied ‘ We are very rich and buy the best players’ simple really. The fact that they do it outside of the FFP means feck all to UEFA who do evdry thing they can to accommodate City.

OutOfTowner · Apr 21, 2021

Inigo Montoya said:
And don’t float it on the stock market then moan when people you don’t like end up buying it

And if it is on the stock market, make sure you actually have the money to purchase the club instead of using the clubs own finances against it.

golden_blunder said:
Good point

Wish they'd actually considered that.

hobbers · Apr 21, 2021

There's going to be a lot of penny pinching going on by all the 12 clubs aside from Chelsea and City this summer.

I thought we were going to be penny pinching regardless, but that goes triply now. On the other hand we'll probably easily keep hold of Pogba, because Juve and Real can no longer afford him, or anyone.

Nytram Shakes · Apr 21, 2021

I think we need to change fan expectations as much as anything else. I mean last summer in the middle of a pandemic when clubs were and are hemorrhaging money man united spent 75 million, 85 million if you include the signing on fee for Cavani, plus we paid millions for Sanchez to leave and had spent 50+million on Fernandes a few month earlyer.

And even after that fans were acting like our expenditure was too low!! that's crazy and not sustainable!

Regulus Arcturus Black · Apr 21, 2021

Something should have been done a long time ago, no-one can run a football club the ”proper” way and compete with City long term. Not a chance.
The whole system needs a revamp.

eire-red · Apr 21, 2021

The middle east investment has definitely tightened margins and increased the burden of continuous investment to stay competitive in modern football.

I don't see this trend reversing, and owners like the Glazers, who want to turn Manchester United into a profitable business should be considering an exit strategy right now.

In the early 2000's, we had a business model ahead of the curve, less competition and greater financial firepower in a relative sense to the rest of the PL. That's clearly not the case anymore, so if they don't view the investment required to stay in the industry as sustainable, then the simple option should be to sell.

GBBQ · Apr 21, 2021

NicolaSacco said:
How can it be better for both? Assuming you mean financially better of course. If players get higher wages it's the club paying for it (good for the player but not the club), if the player gets lower wages then it's good for the club, not the player. If it's transfer fees then it's equally good or bad depending on whether you are the selling or buying club.

It’s better for players as they have more control over who they can join (I.e. not just the club that can meet the selling club’s transfer fee) and get a better deal wage wise too.

For clubs, less outlay on transfers is obviously better for them. Majority of clubs have a negative net spend so the current situation is loss making. More free transfers would help redress the balance, if done properly. You’ll still see big players moving for money but if it becomes less of a necessity then clubs who can’t afford it won’t be forced to pay big.

Cloud7 · Apr 21, 2021

McTerminator said:
A review of transfer fees would need to be global and accompanied by a global salary cap. There would also need to be a review on how football clubs use their profits I.e grass roots projects, ticket prices, community outreach.

almost impossible to pull off, but if it could be done and done well I’d be in favour.

The issue with this is, there’s an insane amount of money in football. Absolutely insane. The money comes from advertisers and broadcasters. The money is always going to be there. There is no way to force clubs into spending their money in particular ways, short of (I assume) an ownership model where fans have some say. Short of that, the options for where the money goes are into the pockets of the players or into the pockets of the owners, and with that choice I prefer the players to get it since they’re the ones that actually earn that money.

Repercussions of ESL failure (Investment)

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