By that logic of people if people in Qatar are making protests regarding their civil rights 6 years after this World Cup and are shot dead on the street by the Qatar government. It doesn’t matter because it’s a 6 year difference?
“but hey”
Boycott The Qatar World Cup?
- Thread starter OldSchoolManc
- Start date
“but hey”
Again, you keep misunderstanding. It's getting wilful at this point.
Time and time again the hypocrisy has been on show from the governments of these countries. Many of their own citizens can see it and protest against it (including some on the forum), and yet even some of them will refuse to acknowledge that the treatment given to their governments' crimes are different because it often comes couched in words like freedom and democracy. You can bomb an entire nation into rubble but there will never be a call for boycott of your sporting events.
Little triangles living up to his username and playing some nice tiki taka. I agree with everything he has said . It is not about whataboutism and mentioning or critiquing every injustice but the consumerist/western lens through which a lot of the world views things. Was there talk of banning the NFL or PL during the Iraq war as an example. The world is changing fast though and hopefully we will all be as morally courageous as we should.
On the point of Qatar though, i think there is a separation between what a country is doing and direct football stuff.
Qatar has three red flags; The migrant deaths, the lack of footballing infrastructure and inability to host without messing up a lot of the footballing calendar. Even then I predict it'll be the most watched sporting event of all time.
Also as an aside every FIFA and UEFA tournament should just be assumed to have bribery at this point.
On the point of Qatar though, i think there is a separation between what a country is doing and direct football stuff.
Qatar has three red flags; The migrant deaths, the lack of footballing infrastructure and inability to host without messing up a lot of the footballing calendar. Even then I predict it'll be the most watched sporting event of all time.
Also as an aside every FIFA and UEFA tournament should just be assumed to have bribery at this point.
Well, I guess because the NFL or PL are leagues played within a country, they won't be called into question anyway (though the PL is really an international product with the amount of foreign players in it). However, you just know that even if it were the Euros or the WC in question, and if they were being held in the UK at the time of the Iraq war, nobody except a tiny minority would call for a boycott.
I know all these 'if' scenarios are making certain people scream 'hypotheticals', but they are being evasive. It is not a hypothetical, it is a reflection of how the world is and has been.
"The past is not dead, it is not even past."
- William Faulkner.
If the intention is – simply – to point out that a certain form of hypocrisy is a thing, then yes, fine, I guess (I'm not sure how necessary it is to do it every time something like this is discussed, but okay). The problem is that many are seemingly incapable of doing it (making the basic point) without coming across as if they're implying that people (posters) who advocate a boycott are either unaware of said hypocrisy (baseless assumption) or even perpetuating it themselves (perfectly illogical).
Yeah, if you do a careful reading of this thread from page 9 onward, nobody (at least not I) accused any poster on this site of being unaware of hypocrisy or of perpetuating it. Nobody made them the symbol of the mistakes of their governments/their part of the world. Whoever felt accused did so entirely from their own flawed interpretation.
It is not even hypothetical anymore because the Olympic games was awarded to the UK right after they invaded Iraq and there were no calls whatsoever to boycott the Olympics.
Well, I guess because the NFL or PL are leagues played within a country, they won't be called into question anyway (though the PL is really an international product with the amount of foreign players in it). However, you just know that even if it were the Euros or the WC in question, and if they were being held in the UK at the time of the Iraq war, nobody except a tiny minority would call for a boycott.
I know all these 'if' scenarios are making certain people scream 'hypotheticals', but they are being evasive. It is not a hypothetical, it is a reflection of how the world is and has been.
From what I understand the migrants are mainly from South Asia … how do labor fatality rates compare in this specific tournament versus South Asia versus Qatar in general?
Without this data point it is hard to gauge how bad the situation is.
For example if the fatality rates are better than South Asia, would Europe governments/citizens also call for a boycott of all trade with India who seem to be huge exporters of goods?
EDIT: Occupational fatalities:
Qatar 2016: 1.7 per 100,000 (source: ILO)
India 2010: 7.3 per 100,000 (source: report published by Oxford, also claims it is underreported)
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The thing is everyone knows politicians are duplicitous and media, whether it's for profit, like the Murdoch empire or the State influenced like Qatar are rotten and will print the prevailing wind. Literally none of these people are the ones standing up for the Migrant workers here, unless it's populism and they toe the line. It's amnesty, NGOS and a few decent politicians who are leading the protests, and I bet all of these to a man an woman are against the bombing of nations for profit. So there is no hypocrisy. To label it Western arrogance is ridiculous, as if everyone west of Turkey was a hive mind who cheered the destruction of Baghdad, .
The reality is that these calls of hypocrisy are in reality obfuscation of the actual suffering and oppression, as if hypocrisy makes that material suffering any less, or reduces the need to aid them in attaining more rights, in effect it's cheer-leading for the Qatari regime at the expense of those who are suffering. And it's basically the dream of anyone involved in sportswashing. Well done.
Yes, indeed.
Maybe this is different in people's heads because the deaths are directly linked to the football, as is Eric.
Can you show me one vocal opponent of this WC who should have spoken out against the Olympics?
Bingo.
Qatar has a lower mortality rate for the age group than most of the european countries and the USA. I wrote it in a post above.
If civilians in Qatar who are currently being mistreated protested in 6 years time and where killed by the Qatar government for doing so it wouldn't matter because it's 6 years after the World Cup?
"But Hey"
3 accidental deaths. The 6500 deaths is a total number of deaths that include deaths from natural causes in 9 years. I have multiple times posted here numbers that the 6500 deaths is a far lower than the number of deaths for the same ethnicity in the same age group in their homelands and even lower than the numbers in UK and the USA for the same age group.
I've just thrown my David Beckham aftershave in the bin!
Not quite as simple as that.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...grant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022
Qatar: Amnesty International finds failure to investigate deaths of thousands of migrant workers, despite evidence of links between premature deaths & unsafe working conditions
https://www.business-humanrights.or...emature-deaths-and-unsafe-working-conditions/
https://www.business-humanrights.or...emature-deaths-and-unsafe-working-conditions/
If I understand correctly, you are saying there were only three accidental deaths in the Qatar World Cup stadium building. Is that correct?
According to the Qatati reports, yes. Only 3 deaths in construction site related to accidents.
I never mentioned accusations. I did mention implications, yes - but those aren't the same thing.
ETA Not to beat needlessly about the bush, if you (I don't mean you personally) respond to a thread like this by saying, without any attempt at nuance or qualification (paraphrasing): "It's laughable to see people cry out about Qatar when [insert one of several standard whataboutisms, e.g. there was no thread on here about boycotting the London Olympics]", it's hard not to conclude that you are implying that the people (posters) who do cry out about Qatar are doing something questionable.
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Pleases just read the report in numbers, 12 dying every week from a population of 2m How is that even out of proportion.? In the Uk more people die every week in the same age group. Should the Uk investigate the deaths? Working conditions is bad, yes. Did they die because of it, statistically there is no evidence behind it.
from your link.
You can't compare mortality rate for a relatively healthier Qatar workforce against the poorer, less nourished labor force from South Asia. This is a wrong comparison. The only comparison that can be made is Occupational Fatalities which I've already shown. Is the Occupational Fatality specific to FIFA projects in Qatar significantly lower than South Asia?
EDIT: 6,750 deaths (estimated, no firm evidence) out of how many FIFA-specific workers that have come and gone in Qatar?
That number is so low that it can only be taken as a deliberate attempt to laugh at everyone.
Despite you posting this a million times in this very thread, it will be ignored as it goes against their selective outrage, and their idealization of national systems and worldviews that enables the demonization of others while ignoring our own sins. We're talking Olympic level mental gymnastics to justify that holding it somewhere is ok, and somewhere else is not. Make no mistake, the numbers do not show that construction workers are statistically more at risk of death in Qatar than "free" Western democracies. In terms of actual world cup related infrastructure, the main point parroted on here for some strange reason, the result is consistent.
This is possibly one of the most bad faith arguments I've ever heard to shut down others' perspectives. You have also just confirmed your own selective outrage. You mean to tell me that if I don't agree with your double standards, I am only concerned about equality of blame? Have you ever considered the possibility that I am personally affected by the "other side" of the double standard? The situations that people do not call for boycotts for and choose to ignore? I am from Central America and the Caribbean, where the effects of failed intervention after failed intervention continue to this day. I live in the South Side of Chicago, where 80% of the population lives in underservice and chronic deprivation. It says a lot about you that you don't consider these "actual atrocities".
Open your eyes. The double standard is not pointed out to destroy righteous and deserved criticism of Qatar. It is pointed out so people may look inward instead of othering, and maybe see past faith arguments telling others that they should keep their mouths shut about human suffering unless it is on your terms. It's cynical.
FYI, I dedicate my life and labor to equity and economic development, I bring it up not just on Redcafe, but wherever I can. Including the plight of the workers in Qatar and elsewhere. It's not about colonial history, it is about right now. Do you not think that black people in the South Side want an immediate improvement to their lives? I do not care how blame is being divided up. I care about hypocritical stances where holding the world cup somewhere with a dire human rights record is perfectly acceptable, but another calls for a boycott. It reads to me as a negation of the humanity of some people. Disappointing, but not surprising.
So let's get down to brass tacks. What are the reasons that justify a boycott? If I understand correctly, an exhaustive list from this thread includes:
1. That it's held in European winter (climate reasons).
2. That it's held during the European season, thus interrupting European league play.
3. Women's rights and homophobic culture/laws.
4. Human rights record for construction workers, with the 6500 number generating particular outrage.
5. Lack of existing football infrastructure.
6. Lack of a "football culture".
7. There was corruption and bribery in the bidding process.
I'll preface the following by saying that I wholeheartedly support people following their convictions and boycotting something that seems objectionable to them. Gradual protest is ultimately how progress has historically been made, even if that gradual protest leads to a sharp breaking point. I encourage anyone to protest against the World Cup in Qatar if it goes against their convictions. I personally find the treatment of women and the homophobia completely objectionable. I also think that workers, whether in Qatar, India, the UK or the United States, deserve far more dignity. The problem is that I do not consider these transgressions worse than those of the countries which are held up as bastions of "freedom" and "democracy".
Additionally, protesters have also often had to stand up and face criticism, whether that be because objectives are unrealistic, their protest comes off as hypocritical or even because some protests seek to keep unjust and oppressive systems in place (see protests against desegregation, as an obvious example). People are protesting the fact that Disney has black characters as we speak. Protest all you like, but this protest-counterprotest dialogue is how we flesh out progress. And the arrow of time, neither you nor me, is the ultimate judge.
That said, let's dissect and analyze.
1. That it's held in European winter (climate reasons).
The average high in december is 77 (25) degrees and the average low is 61(16) degrees. Anyone that actually plays will tell you that this is pretty close to perfect football weather, and generally significantly cooler than summer months in the Northern Hemisphere. To me, this is a ridiculous point to bring up.
2. That it's held during the European season, thus interrupting European league play.
I mean, seriously? Just check how many national club calendars are disrupted by summer world cups? Why do European calendars matter more? And do they matter so much more that 1 disruption matters more than the 20 that have occurred during the summer?
3. Women's rights and homophobic culture/laws.
It is an absolute shame that these laws are allowed to continue, where some people are seen as less than others. It is a disgrace, and I feel outraged for the women and LGBTQIA+ communities of Qatar. This alone, to me, is worthy of a boycott.
4. Human rights record for construction workers, with the 6500 number generating particular outrage.
While extremely alarming and worthy of our attention for many reasons, this number is dubious and obviously agenda-driven. It references not only world cup infrastructure, and is not even industry specific. It also includes workers who died from any cause (including natural causes). In fact, when normalized, the rate at which workers are dying is much lower than India, and lower even than the UK. If we take the Qatar number at face-value (which we shouldn't by any means, but have for every tournament until this world cup), the number directly related to world cup infrastructure is 3. What's more, as mentioned previously, Western companies are handling the bulk of these works (see this post), so shouldn't we also be boycotting them?
Ultimately, I do think, in an of itself, this is a worthy point of criticism. It is the World Cup, the most popular event in the world, and if we draw attention here, maybe we'll reach a breaking point quicker where workers are treated with greater dignity. But why only now? Why didn't we boycott the UK during the Olympics? Or Brazil? Weren't those opportunities just as good?
5. Lack of existing football infrastructure.
What? Who cares? If anything, it's creating jobs for people that need them, as seen by the amount of migrant workers that flock to Qatar. We're talking about one of the richest countries in the world per capita, why should anyone care that they are building a few stadiums with their riches, even if they never use them again? These will be some of the most environmentally sustainable stadiums ever built, no less. And in Brazil, the stadiums they build literally took them to the verge of insolvency, with rampant corruption and state capture by construction companies. And that is in a country where people are dying waiting for treatment, and kids have to walk miles to get to schools.
6. Lack of a "football culture".
Elitist, exclusionary, and incorrect. Aside from cricket, primarily driven by temporary expat workers, soccer is the most popular sport in Qatar in terms of participation and viewership. In the US, it is only the fourth most popular, at best. In Japan, it is third. Qatar just won the Asia Cup and competes well in every tournament they have been invited to. Wasn't the whole basis of having the world cup in the US to incentivize the sport there? Safe to say, this is another silly point.
7. There was corruption and bribery in the bidding process.
FIFA is synonymous with corruption. Bribery and corruption are seemingly standard procedure in the World Cup host selection process. Ricardo Teixeira, former president of the Brazilian Football Confederation and the chief organizer of the 2014 World Cup, has been found guilty of so much corruption that it's impossible to list them here. A bit rich to call for a Boycott now when this has been going on since, forever? Sure, we should always protest corruption, but it comes off as dishonest and honestly somewhat discriminatory when we only do it for some, yet not for others. Links for corruption in the Russian, German, South African and Korea/Japan World Cups.
And there you go. My view of why most complaints about this World Cup are biased and sometimes preposterous. Women's rights and homophobia are enough for a boycott, but my qualm is that they do not outweigh the problems with hosting sporting events in other countries like the US and UK, for example.
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The arrogance you display is astounding.
How is it selective? Deal with the actual outrage and defend the Qatar's human rights issues?
You're just playing whataboutery bingo at this point.
36 in total for workers in the world cup stadiums or projects connected to it, 3 of the cases were were due to accidents in work sites. the rest were non work related deaths.
I've outlined, in detail, why it is selective.
Whenever legitimate criticism of the so-called democracies is levied, there is always some preposterous defence with the ultimate goal of leaving us voiceless: "whataboutery", "time and a place", "we are democracies", "it's different because its Russia, and this is Europe". Well if it's arrogant to point out the double standards, then I am as arrogant as they come!
Double post in error.
There is no double standards here. Not to the degree you are singing about them. Nobody in this thread has justified anything except posters blurring lines in defence of the Qatari regime by baselessky accusing posters of hypocrisy or sobe agenda driven selective outrage. I don't like the way Qatar is run. Its utterly consistent with my principles. We can only assume you agree with the Qatari treatment of migrants, women and the lgbt community. It's the only thing that makes sense of your baseless arragance and accusations.
What are you comparing here? these 6750 are the total number of deaths in Qatar from 2m immigrant in 9 years. Do you think this number is out of proportion?
What do Russian reports say about their invasion of Ukraine?
In conclusion, you didn't even read my post.
In case you didn't realise, humans are an evolved species. I can disagree with how Qatar is run, and simultaneously attempt to uncover the double standards where boycotts are called for here, yet not in the other countries that cause immesurable more human suffering. Double standards have extremely deleterious effects, both in undermining the messaging behind a legitimate protest (like Qatar), and in inhibiting introspection and, thus, critical mass, for situations closer to home (like the West).
Anyways, I'll leave you to it. We obviously have fundamental disagreement.
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This is just stupid by Amnesty, like they do not know how the medical system in an Arabic/islamic country work and how death certificates get issued there. Not making investigation after every death is nothing specific to immigrants in Qatar, it is a general thing including Qataris themselves, it is just how the medical system in Qatar function and goes with the culture and religion of the country, it is not a conspiracy theory.
Be objective and put your data if you are wishing to engage in discussion.
Can say the same thing about the British media and the west related "NGO's" claims about the deaths in Qatar.