They reopened the votes after they were in and knew the results. How can you not see how messed up that is? The fact that you’re defending it and saying that because we don’t know the actual reason, so everything is fine is beyond stupid.
The voters were probably not told about the timeframe. I am sure many who voted Messi voted him primarily because of the world cup win
It would be easy to see in the small print that the starting point was December and presume that included the World Cup and vote based on that, rather than based on the day after the World Cup. If you'd asked me off hand and I saw December 19th, I would have thought World Cup final and I watch a lot of football (was December 18th). Some people underestimate just how big the World Cup is.
They don't watch enough football to make any kind of assessment of "who was the best player of the year" that depends entirely on their own judgment.
I don't think football journalists watch every match of every team who has a gem of a player. But anyway how much football pro footballers and coaches watch much vary a lot. I understand the ones who want to focus on something else but its also their passion.
I would admit have no idea how much football the players and coaches who had a vote watch matches on average, but bar the players without any real football iq, but people who watch football and actually played the game and understand the importance of the job every player has beyond Hollywood moments, i find it a bit hard to believe that we as fans can make judgement call but the pros at the highest lvl cant. But i still completely disagree with their votes on this one so there is that i suppose.
Most football fans prefer to watch players like Maradona, Messi, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff and their mesmerizing magical plays regardless of whether they score or not rather than a tap-in merchant scoring nth useless tap-in. or regardless of whether they win or lose..
Well he's right about Messi. Id still take Müller over Zidane though.
I think Müller is selling himself a bit short here. He's the prime example for how important game reading ability is. That's IMO the most underrated criterion. You'll find lots of players who are technically able to do what Messi or Zidane do/did, most of them not even professionals, but as Cruyff said, you play football with your head more than your legs
Zidane said something similar as well about Messi. And Müller himself exceeded in that area.I'm sure they can make the judgment, they just didn't b/c they're lazy (or busy or whatever other reason).
I think the underlying issue is that the product isn't really what is printed on the label. It is described to be the prize for the best individual but one of if not the most important factor is team performances. That puts you between a rock and a hard place because at times you can't be consequent. When Messi scores 90 goals in a calendar year, you'd make a fool of yourself to deny him the prize even if he didn't win a major international title. And those issues predate the Messi/Ronaldo era, IMO. I mean, there's no way that Cannavaro was a better individual footballer than Ronaldinho in 2006 who placed fourth despite playing his arguably most iconic season. Nobody would in hindsight have Cannavaro higher in an all time list than Ronaldinho either. And I'm sure the farther you go back, the more cases like these you'll find.
Coaches do. Most players when asked tend to admit they don't. The rationale is they have enough of football what with their own training and games, they prefer to spend their free time doing something else/spend it with their families
There is a lot of pro footballers. I hardly know a source for the norm.
I mean yeah, but if we're making assumptions I find it safer to extrapolate based on what the majority of those who were asked about it said.
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Exactly, specially the last sentence.
They watch far less games than sports journalists whose job is to watch a lot of football games and then write articles and/or talk about these games. I have more confidence in journalists than in footballers when it comes to these awards. I mean there are no serious arguments to give it to Messi for 2023. It should have gone to one of the three best performing City players from january to august.
"Most competitive in the game game"... all that and you leave with that ambiguity. What does that mean?
You have been assuming too much here. I am just saying what I’ve said. Being the best in game requires the player to be the most competitive in the game, instead of just stood out in 1 or 2 aspect which leads to nothing significant in helping his team playing better football and achieving better results.
You said people need to get over emphasising tricks, skills, dribbles to rate great players. I'm saying there's really no player out there, current or past, that gets rated great purely off their ball skills.
It's your strange notion to downplay playmaking, dribbling and associated creativity since your idol is useless in these areas. I know, you know, everybody knows had your useless idol been a GOAT level player in these areas like Pele, Messi, Maradona, Platini, Zidane, Cruyff etc., you will be the one posting regularly about the importance of playmaking, dribbling. As if those skills are also separated from trophies, all those above players won almost everything at every level by "dominating" games. "Dominating" games doesn't mean scoring the nth tap-in after ghosting for 80 minutes. And those names above dominated games regularly thanks partly to those extraordinary playmaking, dribbling skills. These skills are what defines those players.
Sure, but that’s not my point. I just felt some people has been underestimating players like Haaland for being rated as best player currently or worthiness of winning these awards. If it’s on any other sports he would be regarded as the best no doubts, as he has proven to be most competitive player in football during the most recent year.
All wrong.
So juvenile, and a perfect summary of why the whole debate is so tiresome.
I think you got it wrong, that’s not what I am talking about at all. For example, Muller doesn’t have 3 WC nor 8 Ballon D’or nor 5 CL, and not even most goals or assists in football history in any particular period, I don’t know what matrix leads you to think he is GOAT.
Just step outside from your own world and take a look at the world outside, or just goggle it or something. Any other sports has long debate of their GOAT mostly based on most major or most MVP or best stats in their respective sports.All wrong.
Care to explain how Lebron is widely regarded as a top-2 player winning top-scorer award only once.
Based on your logic, in basketball, whoever scores most would be regarded as the best. There were other players who won more than Jordan, who scored more, who assisted more etc. yet Jordan is no.1. similar for Lebron.
Your competitive definition in football = most tap-ins. Haaland "the most competitive player"?
How can you be the most competitive player scoring 0 goals in 8 semi-final & finals when your team scored 15 goals? and you're the striker of this team yet scored 0 in the most important games with the lowest ratings by far. Is this competitive for you?
Jordan is Jordan because of his elevated performance when it comes to the biggest stage. These guys overperform when the pressure goes up not ghost, that's part of the reason why they're the GOATs. same for any other legend in other sports, like Djokovic, Nadal in tennis.
I have never seen a player in any sports being called the most competitive or the best by ghosting that regularly in the biggest games especially with those one-dimensional limited skills.
In team sports? Most definitely not.There are players with more NBA rings than Michael Jordan and/or more NBA MVPs. And comparing scoring stats in basketball with goals scored in football makes no sense at all since most a much, much larger proportion of good plays in basketball are captured in points scored than good plays in football in goals scored. It is a different topic when it comes to solo sports like tennis, darts or golf ut football isn't.
You're contradicting yourself as usual in the bolded part.
when all these players achieved their status with what they did in the biggest stage, carried their teams to victories unlike Haaland the ghost who was bailed out each game. Imagine Jordan ghosting in playoffs, being bailed out by his teammates on a regular basis, and people calling him"the best" "the most competitive".You're contradicting yourself as usual in the bolded part.
As if Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Messi, Platini, KDB, Xavi, Zidane etc. do not have insane stats, trophies, awards. You do not seem to be able to process that they won these awards due to their out of this world playmaking, dribbling, passing skills, creativity etc. The problem is , in your world, stats=tap-ins because that fits your agenda to hype up Haaland (and of course indirectly hyping up your idol) You saw the other thread "top-10 players of all time", see where people rank your Ronaldo, tier-2 player for most. He can score another 1000 tap-ins in Saudi and against Faroe along with Haaland, nobody cares when it comes to these rankings.
The statement that "Haaland is the most competitive and best player" alone kills your whole credibility which was close to zero anyway on this topic. You are calling a striker with 0 goals in 8 semis & finals in a treble winning season the most competitive and the best
You were comparing Mbappe and Ronaldo NT record on the goals in the Euro Qualifiers based on the goals your idol scored against Luxembourg, Liechtenstein etc. in Euro qualifiers when Mbappe at 24 destroys your idol's whole NT record with his single game performance in the WC final alone (even when ignoring Mbappe's impressive overall WC performances in 2018 and 2022). Not everything in football is about nth tap-in scored against Faroe, Andorra, Al Kabab etc. You don't seem to understand why people aren't impressed by the "nth tap-in" and continue posting along the same lines all the time despite many people trying to help you understand football and what's valued.
As for, Muller. Muller doesn't have 5 Ballon D'ors because there was no social media back then. Send Haaland to 1970s, he is not winning any Ballon D'or over Cruyff or Beckenbauer. That's the thing this is the perfect era for statpadders due to social media hype. There's no way Beckenbauer, or Cruyff winning those Ballon D'ors over Haaland the tap-in merchant in this era without controversy.
Gerd Muller
4-time CL top goalscorer
2 times Golden Shoe
1970 WC top goalscorer with 10 goals
1972 scored 2 goals each in the Euros semi-final & finals won the Euros for Germany
1974 scored the winning goal in the WC final
7 times Bundesliga top goal-scorer
all-time goalscoring record in WC (between 74-2006)
most goals in Bundesliga ever
most Bundesliga goals in a sesason (between 72-2021)
most goals in a calendar year (between 72-2012)
68 goals in 62 games with NT, 1.1 per game , double of Ronaldo's
With these stats, Muller would have easily 4-5 Ballon D'ors in this era.
Passion is good but you come across as aggressive and totally subjective. As the one you are arguing with, I wouldn't think that you even consider the arguments I presented you, not even for a second.You might be right.No offense, I even agree with your takes for the most part, but you deliber them so tribal that it rather makes me question my own views instead of feeling confirmed
That’s insane and totally over the top response from yours. Not even once did I mentioned Cristiano here, I think it’s rather a case of you overreacting here, and I am not going to speculate your reasoning because it seems there isn’t any.
Add to that, most key passes, most man of the match awards, most assists...
Muller wasn’t Ballon D’or regulars because he has been overshined/out-performed by other top players in his era (ie Cruyff, Beckenbauer). It’s crazy you blamed all these on social media.You're contradicting yourself as usual in the bolded part.
As if Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Messi, Platini, KDB, Xavi, Zidane etc. do not have insane stats, trophies, awards. You do not seem to be able to process that they won these awards due to their out of this world playmaking, dribbling, passing skills, creativity etc. The problem is , in your world, stats=tap-ins because that fits your agenda to hype up Haaland (and of course indirectly hyping up your idol) You saw the other thread "top-10 players of all time", see where people rank your Ronaldo, tier-2 player for most. He can score another 1000 tap-ins in Saudi and against Faroe along with Haaland, nobody cares when it comes to these rankings.
The statement that "Haaland is the most competitive and best player" alone kills your whole credibility which was close to zero anyway on this topic. You are calling a striker with 0 goals in 8 semis & finals in a treble winning season the most competitive and the best
You were comparing Mbappe and Ronaldo NT record on the goals in the Euro Qualifiers based on the goals your idol scored against Luxembourg, Liechtenstein etc. in Euro qualifiers when Mbappe at 24 destroys your idol's whole NT record with his single game performance in the WC final alone (even when ignoring Mbappe's impressive overall WC performances in 2018 and 2022). Not everything in football is about nth tap-in scored against Faroe, Andorra, Al Kabab etc. You don't seem to understand why people aren't impressed by the "nth tap-in" and continue posting along the same lines all the time despite many people trying to help you understand football and what's valued.
As for, Muller. Muller doesn't have 5 Ballon D'ors because there was no social media back then. Send Haaland to 1970s, he is not winning any Ballon D'or over Cruyff or Beckenbauer. That's the thing this is the perfect era for statpadders due to social media hype. There's no way Beckenbauer, or Cruyff winning those Ballon D'ors over Haaland the tap-in merchant in this era without controversy.
Gerd Muller (mind you Bundesliga was a top-2 league in Muller's era)
4-time CL top goalscorer
2 times Golden Shoe
1970 WC top goalscorer with 10 goals
1972 Euros scored 2 goals each in the Euros semi-final & finals won the Euros for Germany
1974 WC scored the winning goal in the WC final
7 times Bundesliga top goal-scorer
all-time goalscoring record in WC (between 74-2006)
most goals in Bundesliga ever
most Bundesliga goals in a sesason (between 72-2021)
most goals in a calendar year (between 72-2012)
68 goals in 62 games with NT, 1.1 per game , double of Ronaldo's
With these stats, Muller would have easily 4-5 Ballon D'ors in this era.
I can relate to that but getting worked up doesn't help, it only makes you less convincing for third parties reading your posts if you are getting carried away so that you're actually the opposite of what you intended, IMO
Oh, I'm watching lots of different sports
And what you say simply isn't true. LeBron for instance gets praised a lot for his game reading ability and high basketball IQ. On the conrary, LeBron currently sits at 7th in terms of career PPG, behind Embiid and Durant who played in the same era but aren't considered on the same level as he was. One way or another, in any sport a look at the stats is only part of the truth, in some sports that are easily quantifiable a bigger part and in others a lesser part.Sure Lebron was a great player regardless of all these. But he has only been in serious GOAT contention when he start reaching all those crazy milestone (ie NBA all time scoring leader, 4 times MVP). Its not something I’ve made up here as it has been widely discussed in public, I don’t know why you have to act so much in denial for those things you don’t agree with.Oh, I'm watching lots of different sports
And football is probably the one big sport that is most difficult to quantify. That the statistics you presented are pretty bad at predicting the most valuable player is by the way backed up by the fact that for the most occasions in history, the golden boot and the golden ball went to different players. And the one who is responsible for the most incidences of those two prizes going to the same person is Lionel Messi.
Muller is one of the greatest goal scorers of all time and any era.
