Ballon d'Or 2023 | Messi wins for 8th time

[heraklion]

Muller wasn’t Ballon D’or regulars because he has been overshined/out-performed by other top players in his era (ie Cruyff, Beckenbauer). It’s crazy you blamed all these on social media.

So, now, you started expressing my views and tons of others that goalscoring records etc. aren't the only thing in football. Muller has been outperformed by Cruyff, Beckenbauer because of the things that you find unimportant, things like playmaking, dribbling skills etc.

Please stick to what you wrote above, because I'll quote it the next time you come here with nth tap-in stats.

An no, what you’ve presented here for him only makes him one of great goalscorer of our time and great player from his era. Wasn’t enough to guarantee him up there with other GOAT.

Are you RedRonaldo or someone else? Because, no way, RedRonaldo would write something like that, he is obsessed with the goal numbers and uses these as his main criteria to determine who's the greatest player ever.

Because, with the same stats minus ghosting (Muller was legendary for his finals performance, probably the most clutch player ever), RedRonaldo was calling Haaland "the best", "the most competitive" scoring 0 goals in 8 semis & finals with his teammates at City scoring 15 goals so that Haaland can post selfies with the treble cups.

If Ronaldo could win 5 Ballon D'ors thanks to his goalscoring stats especially in the CL, Muller should have the same if not more as he has not only done similar in the CL but destroys Ronaldo and 99.9% of other players at the NT level with that kind of record.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Muller is one of the greatest goal scorers of all time and any era.

He has goals in the WC final and European Championship final with Germany.

He won 3 European Cup/CL trophies in a row from 1973 - 1976. He scored in 2 of the 3 finals and was the top scorer in 2 of the 3 tournaments and was joint second in the third tournament.

Between 1974 and 2006, he was the outright top scorer in World Cup history with 14 goals. Scoring in a final and scoring 2 in a semi final.

He has 568 goals and 102 assists in 611 games at club level.

He has 68 goals in 62 games for Germany.

Gerd Muller was the ultimate scoring machine, which is funny because that is what you seem to mainly judge Ronaldo on for why he is the GOAT.

But Ronaldo didn't even score in a WC knock out round.

If someone deems Gerd Muller as being at greatest of all time level and even number 1 then they actually have a pretty solid argument tbh.

I do agree Muller is one of greatest goalscorer of all time. And I am not going to compare him with Ronaldo here because their game (during their respective peaks) are so much different (striker vs wing forward). And let’s not always bring Ronaldo out of nowhere into these discussions, it has nothing to do with him at all.

 

[RedRonaldo]

So, now, you started expressing my views and tons of others that goalscoring records etc. aren't the only thing in football. Muller has been outperformed by Cruyff, Beckenbauer because of the things that you find unimportant, things like playmaking, dribbling skills etc.

Please stick to what you wrote above, because I'll quote it the next time you come here with nth tap-in stats.



Are you RedRonaldo or someone else? Because, no way, RedRonaldo would write something like that, he is obsessed with the goal numbers and uses these as his main criteria to determine who's the greatest player ever.

Because, with the same stats minus ghosting (Muller was legendary for his finals performance, probably the most clutch player ever), RedRonaldo was calling Haaland "the best", "the most competitive" scoring 0 goals in 8 semis & finals with his teammates at City scoring 15 goals so that Haaland can post selfies with the treble cups.

If Ronaldo could win 5 Ballon D'ors thanks to his goalscoring stats especially in the CL, Muller should have the same if not more as he has not only done similar in the CL but destroys Ronaldo and 99.9% of other players at the NT level with that kind of record.

Different player, different era and different discussions there. Why not we just go back and stick to competitive sports arguments?

 

[Zehner]

Sure Lebron was a great player regardless of all these. But he has only been in serious GOAT contention when he start reaching all those crazy milestone (ie NBA all time scoring leader, 4 times MVP). Its not something I’ve made up here as it has been widely discussed in public, I don’t know why you have to act so much in denial for those things you don’t agree with.

See, the first thing to keep in mind is that we're talking about basketball, a sport that is suited very well to being quantified since it is a high scoring game in which, as said, a large proportion of plays lead to points scored. Because of that, it is much easier to capture the performance of a player in scoring-related metrics. O rin other words: If you rate a football player by his goals scored, you leave a large proportion of his performance out of the equation. If you rate a basketball player by his points scored, you leave a much smaller proportion of his performance out of the equation, but still a considerable one. That is why there are statistics like blocks and turnovers and why Jokic was praised for his triple double records last season that much. So even in an easily quantifiable sport like basketball, people still account for the performance aspects that aren't covered in scoring statistics. And that's also represented in GOAT discussions to an extent, e. g. when Curry is criticized for his weak defense or LeBron praised for it. Or when comparing somebody like Curry to Durant - based on scoring there could only be one outcome. But Curry has had a transformative effect on basketball that few players if any really had, arguably only Chamberlain and maybe in future Wembanyama. His skills force the team to adjust tactically and pressure him more and with a player with this kind of ball handling, that creates lots of space for others. So people could (and do) argue that Curry should be seen ahead of Durant despite being hopelessly behind in terms of scoring.

And in football, this is even more extreme. NBA games probably average over 200 points per game, an EPL game less than 3 goals. So unless you want to suggest there are only three performance relevant plays per 90 minutes of EPL football (6 if we count assists), then this leaves your methodology of measuring good performances with a gigantic blind spot.

 

[RedRonaldo]

See, the first thing to keep in mind is that we're talking about basketball, a sport that is suited very well to being quantified since it is a high scoring game in which, as said, a large proportion of plays lead to points scored. Because of that, it is much easier to capture the performance of a player in scoring-related metrics. O rin other words: If you rate a football player by his goals scored, you leave a large proportion of his performance out of the equation. If you rate a basketball player by his points scored, you leave a much smaller proportion of his performance out of the equation, but still a considerable one. That is why there are statistics like blocks and turnovers and why Jokic was praised for his triple double records last season that much. So even in an easily quantifiable sport like basketball, people still account for the performance aspects that aren't covered in scoring statistics. And that's also represented in GOAT discussions to an extent, e. g. when Curry is criticized for his weak defense or LeBron praised for it. Or when comparing somebody like Curry to Durant - based on scoring there could only be one outcome. But Curry has had a transformative effect on basketball that few players if any really had, arguably only Chamberlain and maybe in future Wembanyama. His skills force the team to adjust tactically and pressure him more and with a player with this kind of ball handling, that creates lots of space for others. So people could (and do) argue that Curry should be seen ahead of Durant despite being hopelessly behind in terms of scoring.

And in football, this is even more extreme. NBA games probably average over 200 points per game, an EPL game less than 3 goals. So unless you want to suggest there are only three performance relevant plays per 90 minutes of EPL football (6 if we count assists), then this leaves your methodology of measuring good performances with a gigantic blind spot.

Fair enough for high scoring game in basketball it does matter more on scoring stats.

Except thats not my only measurement in terms of competitiveness. In traditional sense of course goals, assists, trophies, awards are other important factors which has get many people talking (afterall in football there are always individual awards for top player and top goalscorer). But sure there could have many other.

The problem with these discussions here, is that all along I am trying to talk about competitiveness in sports matter most, but somehow people start to have other idea and go all deep into one aspect of the game or one player in particular, which isn’t what the discussion is all about.

 

[RedSky]

It's a nonsense award, has been for years. Who gives a feck.

 

[Zehner]

Fair enough for high scoring game in basketball it does matter more on scoring stats.

Except thats not my only measurement in terms of competitiveness. In traditional sense of course goals, assists, trophies, awards are other important factors which has get many people talking (afterall in football there are always individual awards for top player and top goalscorer). But sure there could have many other.

The problem with these discussions here, is that all along I am trying to talk about competitiveness in sports matter most, but somehow people start to have other idea and go all deep into one aspect of the game or one player in particular, which isn’t what the discussion is all about.

The problem with that reasoning is that it is very flawed. What you're basically saying is that good statistics and/or successful trophy runs correlate with the quality of the respective players. Which is true in general but the coefficient is most likely very weak since even the most successful players have at best a win rate of 25% in international club competitions. And the same goes for scoring statistics. Yet reading your arguments, one would think that those things are the be all end all factor in rating a player when they are merely a clue.

And the reason for that is that the nature of football is very improvised and erratic. The situations in games are less reproducable and planable than in basketball for instance. There are much more variables, much more randomness, fewer decisive events (goals) which means more "undeserved" results.

 

[Wiesenlooser]

This messi title really buried the award. Past ones were already dubious (Messi over Lewandowski), but 2023 Messi should not even have been in the debate.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Best bit of this "debate" is the fact people were listing some poxy achievement in America in a team that finished bottom of their league

 

[RedRonaldo]

The problem with that reasoning is that it is very flawed. What you're basically saying is that good statistics and/or successful trophy runs correlate with the quality of the respective players. Which is true in general but the coefficient is most likely very weak since even the most successful players have at best a win rate of 25% in international club competitions. And the same goes for scoring statistics. Yet reading your arguments, one would think that those things are the be all end all factor in rating a player when they are merely a clue.

And the reason for that is that the nature of football is very improvised and erratic. The situations in games are less reproducable and planable than in basketball for instance. There are much more variables, much more randomness, fewer decisive events (goals) which means more "undeserved" results.

I get where you are coming from and I am not in disagreement with your core thinking. The only beef I have on all this is that, despite being the most competitive player in 2023, people are not giving enough credits on what Haaland has done in the toughest settings. I get that there maybe some technical weakness in his game, where he may never be as good as prime Messi or Cruyff or Ronaldo as footballer etc. But in 2023 he is still easily the most competitive footballer out there, and it’s not just about scoring more goals or easy tap ins than anyone else, and just because he isn’t ideal type of footballer with elite technical level shouldn’t be the reason to count him out totally. Ultimately speaking football is a competitive sport and best players should be judged by the strength of their competitiveness which gives them an edge over others.

 

[Gehrman]

This messi title really buried the award. Past ones were already dubious (Messi over Lewandowski), but 2023 Messi should not even have been in the debate.

Which award are we talking about? Because Lewandowski won the 2020, 2021 Fifa Best awards.

 

[Gehrman]

I get where you are coming from and I am not in disagreement with your core thinking. The only beef I have on all this is that, despite being the most competitive player in 2023, people are not giving enough credits on what Haaland has done in the toughest settings. I get that there maybe some technical weakness in his game, where he may never be as good as prime Messi or Cruyff or Ronaldo as footballer etc. But in 2023 he is still easily the most competitive footballer out there, and it’s not just about scoring more goals or easy tap ins than anyone else, and just because he isn’t ideal type of footballer with elite technical level shouldn’t be the reason to count him out totally. Ultimately speaking football is a competitive sport and best players should be judged by the strength of their competitiveness which gives them an edge over others.

I would completely agree that for the Fifa best award for 2023 it shouldnt have gone to Messi. I also dislike the whole thing about ghosting, not that its irrelevant. But more that Haalands record against the biggest PL teams is immense. And that is overall goal contribution their succes cant be ignored. However finishing 2nd is hardly being overlooked. Id say for 2023 it should been between him, Mpabbe and KDB.

 

[Zehner]

I get where you are coming from and I am not in disagreement with your core thinking. The only beef I have on all this is that, despite being the most competitive player in 2023, people are not giving enough credits on what Haaland has done in the toughest settings. I get that there maybe some technical weakness in his game, where he may never be as good as prime Messi or Cruyff or Ronaldo as footballer etc. But in 2023 he is still easily the most competitive footballer out there, and it’s not just about scoring more goals or easy tap ins than anyone else, and just because he isn’t ideal type of footballer with elite technical level shouldn’t be the reason to count him out totally. Ultimately speaking football is a competitive sport and best players should be judged by the strength of their competitiveness which gives them an edge over others.

I don't know what you mean with competitiveness. Personally, I don't think Haaland isn't even the best player at City. Not even sure his arrival made them a better team to begin with.

 

[lex talionis]

Amigos, isn’t this award functionally identical to the miss universe pageant?

 

[RedRonaldo]

I don't know what you mean with competitiveness. Personally, I don't think Haaland isn't even the best player at City. Not even sure his arrival made them a better team to begin with.

Competitiveness in sports includes alot of things, basically its "by any means" beating the opponents in competitive game. It can be either more on technical side, or more on athleticism, or more on mental strength, or more on playing smart. You can be so good in the air where no defenders could stop you inside the box and you keep winning games by scoring alot of headers, or you can be so good at timing your runs arriving late and scoring goals from edge of box in highly repetitive manner, or you can be so good in dribbling and getting past your markers to open up a chance for your teammates to win games in highly repetitive manner too, or you can even be so good in possession play, controlling/orchestrating the pace of the game/movements of your teammates which results in always increasing odds of your team winning. They are all the same - the most competitive player are the ones who are able to keep beating the opponents and winning games in the most unstoppable manner, in whatever edge he has, with no pre-defined criteria. It can be beautiful, or exciting, or even ugly or boring.

I get there is always strong favouritism on players with better creativity or footballing from your side over other type of players, which is not wrong way to go from fans perspectives. But being most competitive goes far broader than that, and it doesn't really matter what most fans would think. And I mean PL and CL is of the highest competitive level in football in 2023, where Haaland always posed to be the biggest threat in his role on punishing defenders near or inside the box with his superior physical strength, speed and movements, explosiveness and scoring touch and able to keep helping his team to win games after games and trophies after trophies. And I think it doesn't really matter if he is good or bad at dribbling, playmaking, or getting alot or little involvement in the game, as long as he keep punishing and beating his opponents in his own way and in highly competitive/repetitive manner.

 

[heraklion]

the most competitive player are the ones who are able to keep beating the opponents and winning games in the most unstoppable manner, in whatever edge he has, with no pre-defined criteria. It can be beautiful, or exciting, or even ugly or boring.

There's no way Haaland was "the most competitive" by your definition. He was by far the most easily "stoppable" player in all semis & finals. He wasn't winning those games or beating opponents with 0 goals and lowest ratings, it was City doing that and his teammates bailing him out. Reading your definition, one would think Haaland singlehandedly beat those team and led his team to the glory which is far from truth. Your definition fits Benzema in 2021-22 at Real or Messi in the last WC more than anything.

City won all these games despite a useless striker sabotaging the whole team and reached a treble. Kudos to City despite playing with 10 players and a ghost in those games, shows how dominant and "competitive" they are.

The amazing record of Haaland "the most competitive player" and the best striker PL has seen in semi finals & finals, never saw such a "competitive" player before
'
UCL semis & final
Real Madrid 1st leg - 0 goal & 0 assist (rating:6.82)
Real Madrid 2nd leg - 0 goal & 0 assist (rating:7.23)

Inter - 0 goal & 0 assist (rating: 6.69)

UEFA Super Cup final
Sevilla - 0 goal & 0 assist (rating:6.46)

Community Shield final
Arsenal - 0 goal & 0 assist (rating:6.03)

FA Cup semis & final
Sheffield United - 0 goal & 0 assist (rating:6.63)
Manchester United - 0 goal & 0 assist (rating: 6.76)

 

[Son]

This messi title really buried the award. Past ones were already dubious (Messi over Lewandowski), but 2023 Messi should not even have been in the debate.

The guy did complete an almost perfect career though which might never be repeated again. I don’t think he was the best player in the world the past year but it meant more than what anyone else did for sure.

His performances all through the World Cup were ridiculous given his age and what he’s won already. It was one of the greatest sporting moments of all time that final.

Given all those memories he brought billions of people over say Haaland goals in mostly very one sided City victories, I’d argue last year was Messi’s more than anyone else. In the big moments nobody did better and nobody will care about Haaland in 30 years time compared to what Messi did.

That’s all people will remember from 2023 apart from city fans who will disagree obvs.

If it was a one off game and you had to bring on one player in the world for the final 20 mins it’s Messi even now…

People banter him playing in Miami but he took that garbage team and elevated them more than anyone else on the planet would have in some matches. He made it look so easy and playing for a poor side isn’t easy.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

His performances all through the World Cup were ridiculous given his age and what he’s won already. It was one of the greatest sporting moments of all time that final.

The World Cup was in 2022. It was not part of the 2023 award.

 

[Bole Top]

deserved. always nice to see the haters crying.

 

[Gehrman]

The World Cup was in 2022. It was not part of the 2023 award.

Im not sure whether the guy @Son is responding to is talking about the Ballon D'Or or Fifa best award.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The World Cup was in 2022. It was not part of the 2023 award.

And people clearly didn’t believe it shouldn’t count, given the Balon D’Or for 2022 was given already in Oct. If two months later the biggest event in the sport happens then it should count for something towards the next one.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

And people clearly didn’t believe it shouldn’t count, given the Balon D’Or for 2022 was given already in Oct. If two months later the biggest event in the sport happens then it should count for something towards the next one.

The World Cup counted for the Balon D'Or 2023, which Messi won, and for The Best 2022, which Messi won. The World Cup has already counted for all relevant awards.

 

[Zehner]

Competitiveness in sports includes alot of things, basically its "by any means" beating the opponents in competitive game. It can be either more on technical side, or more on athleticism, or more on mental strength, or more on playing smart. You can be so good in the air where no defenders could stop you inside the box and you keep winning games by scoring alot of headers, or you can be so good at timing your runs arriving late and scoring goals from edge of box in highly repetitive manner, or you can be so good in dribbling and getting past your markers to open up a chance for your teammates to win games in highly repetitive manner too, or you can even be so good in possession play, controlling/orchestrating the pace of the game/movements of your teammates which results in always increasing odds of your team winning. They are all the same - the most competitive player are the ones who are able to keep beating the opponents and winning games in the most unstoppable manner, in whatever edge he has, with no pre-defined criteria. It can be beautiful, or exciting, or even ugly or boring.

I get there is always strong favouritism on players with better creativity or footballing from your side over other type of players, which is not wrong way to go from fans perspectives. But being most competitive goes far broader than that, and it doesn't really matter what most fans would think. And I mean PL and CL is of the highest competitive level in football in 2023, where Haaland always posed to be the biggest threat in his role on punishing defenders near or inside the box with his superior physical strength, speed and movements, explosiveness and scoring touch and able to keep helping his team to win games after games and trophies after trophies. And I think it doesn't really matter if he is good or bad at dribbling, playmaking, or getting alot or little involvement in the game, as long as he keep punishing and beating his opponents in his own way and in highly competitive/repetitive manner.

Then Haaland wasn't the 'most competitive', IMO. Simply participated too little.

 

[Son]

The World Cup counted for the Balon D'Or 2023, which Messi won, and for The Best 2022, which Messi won. The World Cup has already counted for all relevant awards.

Okay well if that’s the case I’d give it to de Bruyne for last season.

These awards are incredibly confusing, should just all come out at the same time and save everyone’s time.

Didn’t Ronaldo win the fans best player award and then brag he scored more than Haaland last season

Im sure Haaland is very jealous Ronaldo is at the very pinnacle of the game winning all those important trophies and he isn’t