You said he was a terrible waste of money mate.
Now you're saying he's an alternative to Bruno. Make your mind up.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position
- Thread starter sewey89
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Now you're saying he's an alternative to Bruno. Make your mind up.
CM was not the priority last season though. GK and ST was and thats where we spent the most money.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have bought one but we had a budget and with the takeover it looked like they said no to sanctioning more money for a midfielder, hence why we loaned Amrabat for the short term.
He’s a waste of money because we seem to have purchased him to play next to Bruno, in a system which will never work in the premier league, and his actual position is where Bruno plays (and he’s not as good as Bruno). As such, spending £50m plus on him was absolutely crazy.
However, he’s here now and apparently fit. When Bruno is having a poor run of form, we surely should be trying our £250k per week alternative. He should definitely have been subbed in for him on Saturday. Will be interesting to see if ETH does go down that route later in the season.
Yeah (for the 2nd time today) obviously not the same thing are they?
I've said before I think Mount's a good player, but that money could have been spent far better for what we needed given he's not a first XI starter.
Difficult to tell as he's not had a fair go of it yet. Still absolutely has the potential to be.
He is first team starter quality.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/04/01/man-utd-brentford-statistics-erik-ten-hag-future/
The stats here are fairly stark. I'm all for sticking with, but the Brentford match was atrocious. Sometimes push just comes to shove.
The stats here are fairly stark. I'm all for sticking with, but the Brentford match was atrocious. Sometimes push just comes to shove.
McT scores the winner against Villa and he's a hero, for about a week and then back to normal. Playing for United is not like playing for other teams such as City. The expectation is higher because of the history of the club. All these players are talented and it's up to the Manager to exploit that talent in the correct way. SAF did that either by fear or an arm around the shoulder. EtH seems to be more like a Sports Teacher at school at times. He seems to be watching a different game than us with some of his post match interviews. OK, there have been a lot of injuries but it's his job to manage those. He's not been helped by the muppets on the board it has to be said, but now Ineos are in charge of the football, that will change. I'm not convinced EtH has the talent to manage top, top players. Please God, not Southgate as a replacement.
@Leftback99 who would you have signed instead of Mount out of interest?
We’ll see if he ever leaves Mainoo to drown the way Ten Hag is
A starting XI DM/CM. But I said to push for Rice for years before it was too late last summer.
How is it relevant how Ten Hag will do afterwards at other clubs? What is relevant is how Man United do, under whatever manager we have.
And the way we are playing right now, under EtH's setup, is not good enough. That is on him, it is his job, here at our club.
The results are not even that bad, but the way we play just suggests we cannot expect better results with the same way of playing.
Let me just repeat that I was all for hiring Ten Hag based on what kind of football I expected him to be able to implement. And I am baffled as to why what we are seeing is so different/falling short of my expectations. So you get no disagreement from me there, I do not want to categorically call him a bad manager. He might do better somewhere else again, that is all granted.
But it does not matter, the combination Ten Hag/United is not working out, sadly, and I do not believe it only is not working because the club side has not pulled its weight (no disagreement that it hasn't and that we can look forward to a new footballing board).
It is not working out also because Ten Hag is not pulling his weight, because in the things he controls, influences, oversees, he has not done well enough.
And then accordingly, I do not accept the idea that new external circumstances, a new leadership/DoF/recruitment team, a new 'culture' at club level - as much as I will welcome them -, will somehow be decisive in facilitating a better playstyle when the manager stays the same.
You believe differently and I think all the arguments have been laid out, let us leave it at that.
Unless it gets really bad (like us consistently playing like we did against Brentford), I doubt we sack him before the end of the season. I expect the intention is to stumble to the finish line this season, then replace him.
Hugely disagree with all of this. I know you’re massively Ten Hag in but these are quite incorrect assertions when you analyse it properly.
Not going to sit here and pretend I’ve watched Sporting and know about Amorim but De Zerbi and Nagelsmann would absolutely not be the same risk as retaining Ten Hag. We have a greater scope of evidence that suggests those two have a more defined style of play that they’re also able to implement it even through a squad transitioning.
Secondly there are so many more better coaches than Ten Hag out there who would definitely have this team performing better.
But for argument sake in the grand scheme of things me saying that is a nonsense. As what’s likely is United will be incapable of looking at a larger pool and will have probably determined that the list of candidates whittles down to the same half a dozen. Southgate, Potter, Nagelsmann, De Zerbi, Conte and Amorim. God forbid we look at anyone else.
It’s the same small minded thinking that saw West Brom, Palace etc hiring from the same pool - Bruce, Pulis, Allardyce etc for years as they’d convinced themselves there couldn’t possibly be anymore options. It’s absolute lunacy that clubs in the PL behave like this.
Especially one like Man United.
Also not sure EtH is going to get rid of Mctominay. He is currently first choice ahead of Casemiro and Eriksen. Every manager at United has done this towards the end of their reign. They put McTominay back into the team. It’s some weird sort of comfort blanket thing. Maybe because he’s good at deceiving people he gives it his all. When actually he’s a complete coward of a footballer.
And you having faith in Ten Hag when it comes to any sort of squad transitions is actually quite bonkers. He’s been a car crash so far at rebuilding this team. I wouldn’t trust this guy with Amazon vouchers let alone hundred of millions of transfer funds. I’d also like to think the new regime will absolutely take this sort of thing out of whomever is in charge’s hands.
Honestly I am not trying to score points - I am a bit confused how you can label a player as a terrible waste of money but still claim him to have a long term role under the next coach.
You're just not being consistent, as already shown by Berba below. I'm not trying to give a "gotchya" moment but genuinely want to know what you mean.
The approach was a joint one - and yes I am in agreement that we should have gone for a CM. Ten Hag wanted to offload McTominay to help fund our midfields but that didn't materialize. Neither Ten Hag nor the DoF are without blame.
Because there is a narrative that Eric Ten Hag has us playing badly as some sort of ceiling to his abilities as a coach, and an insinuation that *this* is his end goal for the squad. In my opinion that's untrue.
Agreed, but as already explained, I do not think Ten Hag is unable to improve the situation, and I think he's no less of a risk than the other coaches tipped for the role.
Yeah I totally see your view here - what I will say is that Ten Hag never wanted sole control of the transfers. There is an expectation of scouting targets to help overlay his own, and an expectation that negotiations can be run like a top club - neither of which were met by those above him. A better structure can overlay alternative targets, support the manager in veto'ing obvious bad moves (for example Klopp was veto'ed at Liverpool in not wanting Salah), they can also negotiate deals quicker and at better economic values, which helps fund other transfers. A better structure most definitely supports a manager for success and is material in doing so.
Incorrect
Also, McTominay is not first choice, Casemiro is obviously returning from injury. Just like Lindelof isn't first choice over Martinez
We've spent the last 10 years replacing players as well. Doesn't seem to have helped any more than replacing the managers has.
It's obviously a possibility that both the players and the manager can be a problem at the same time. And based on what we are seeing it's not just a possibility, it's a strong probability. In which case, why allow a failing manager to continue training and managing the club which will likely result in another 12 months of failure, training a system that isn't working, and have influence on the transfer targets?
With the new football structure coming in I would hope that they already have a decent idea what the priority changes need to be, so a new manager will come into the club already being told that certain options will be changing. Sure they won't have as good a hands-on idea as ETH does, but that could perhaps be a good thing if ETH has formed attachments to players who aren't good enough.
Ten Hag implemented a really impressive style in his previous clubs too. The smallest risk from your names is Nagelsmann because he had experience in adapting to a big club (even if he did get sacked nonetheless).
I've got no idea who the pool of coaches are - but I think they're all currently a bigger risk than what I'd want to take.
He is not first choice ahead of Casermiro. Casemiro was injured, and needed to be handled carefully in the last game since he had a hamstring issue before the Liverpool game.
He's had a car crash of a season - but I don't think its quite right to extrapolate his pedigree from one season.
As ive always said its better to be caught peeing in a pool than to sit nearby a trampoline without your pants on.
If he has a dignity he would insist the players to play the style of football he tried at the beginning of last season and if we lose we lose, than playing like lil bitch with no improvement from last managers whatsoever, just weird unstructured football relying on fast forwards to score goals and still lose a bunch of games anyway.
If he has a dignity he would insist the players to play the style of football he tried at the beginning of last season and if we lose we lose, than playing like lil bitch with no improvement from last managers whatsoever, just weird unstructured football relying on fast forwards to score goals and still lose a bunch of games anyway.
I’d like to agree with this but ETH isn’t really doing anything to keep his place as Manchester United manager. We aren’t seeing any progression in the tactical set up. There’s nothing ETH is doing to have faith in - he can’t simply be the manager because the alternatives aren’t fancy names. He has to be doing good things to earn his place. Just like our players need to perform to keep their place, standards must come / be met by the manager too. When someone is failing repeatedly the choice between 1) hope he magically improves and 2) replace him, seems clear to me.
Unless ETH somehow revives the Ajax manager in himself I don’t see how he makes it to next season.
And even if he’s sacked, the assessment of many of our duds should come from our new executives. The whole clean slate business was nonsensical and if it persists we are as fecked under Ineos as we were under the clown family of Florida.
So he's not a "waste" of money, then. You can't call a player a waste of money and then claim they can have a role for the first team in the seasons ahead. These are two very contradictory statements.
What you're probably trying to say is that we overspent (we know thats a Murtough problem). And this idea that he's not a first XI Starter is a bit weird too - Ten Hag has been quite adamant in saying he wanted Mount to play a key role for us.
It’s such an over simplification to say he’s a terrible coach, our current state is due to a combination of loads of different factors
10 years of rewarding failure creating a dressing room full of lazy, arrogant losers
A complete mish mash of players, many nowhere near good enough, due to a schizophrenic transfer policy
Lethargy stemming from the directionless absentee ownership, and the uncertainty of the last 12 months
Ten Hag has contributed plenty to the failure and probably deserves to be sacked, but it’s a gross over simplification to say he’s just a bad coach - borderline stupid even considering he has proved himself before now.
The level of opponent (exc CL) back then was obviously much lower but that doesn’t change his ability to coach, or make his tactics worse.
If anything I’d say that the lack of prior top level players experience exposes him more from a people management and pressure handling perspective, but not so much coaching.
The “he can’t coach” angle is far too basic.
10 years of rewarding failure creating a dressing room full of lazy, arrogant losers
A complete mish mash of players, many nowhere near good enough, due to a schizophrenic transfer policy
Lethargy stemming from the directionless absentee ownership, and the uncertainty of the last 12 months
Ten Hag has contributed plenty to the failure and probably deserves to be sacked, but it’s a gross over simplification to say he’s just a bad coach - borderline stupid even considering he has proved himself before now.
The level of opponent (exc CL) back then was obviously much lower but that doesn’t change his ability to coach, or make his tactics worse.
If anything I’d say that the lack of prior top level players experience exposes him more from a people management and pressure handling perspective, but not so much coaching.
The “he can’t coach” angle is far too basic.
Isn't this now a redundant argument? Ineos are hiring people to deal with squad building to ensure we can more seamlessly move between head coaches without needing full rebuilds, or players getting clean slates
To be honest there is another reason why ETH likely has to now go. He's damaged goods....
At the end of last season the team had been hit and miss but mostly hit and most people felt that we'd overperformed and overrelied too heavily on 2-3 individuals to carry us through. Last season though we had a lot of inertia/good vibes going into the summer.
So last summer would have been the time to really crack on.
This year our football has been a dumpster fire all season. Signing new players isn't just a financial transaction. A lot of the discussions with potential targets will also include the playing style and their role within the team. Such discussions are going to be tough with ETH still there and a season worth of dire performances behind him.
At the end of last season the team had been hit and miss but mostly hit and most people felt that we'd overperformed and overrelied too heavily on 2-3 individuals to carry us through. Last season though we had a lot of inertia/good vibes going into the summer.
So last summer would have been the time to really crack on.
This year our football has been a dumpster fire all season. Signing new players isn't just a financial transaction. A lot of the discussions with potential targets will also include the playing style and their role within the team. Such discussions are going to be tough with ETH still there and a season worth of dire performances behind him.
He’s obviously a good coach. You don’t get a team playing the fantastic football he did with Ajax by being a poor coach. However he hasn’t shown any of it here and question marks over how he has been coaching this team for 1.67 seasons, are justified. His tactically imprint has been really underwhelming.
Yeh but I'm not meaning when everyone is fit, they shouldn't even be in the squad. Replacing Shaw and Rashford gives us a completely new left side, and for every other player mention replaced with a starting calibre player it means we don't just have to ride players like Varane and Martinez every game that they're available.
Really? I feel like you come in here during really bad United performances where the manager receives most staunch criticism and you actively go against that?
Meh , semantics. He’s played every minute of everyone of our last five games and we don’t have a mf injury crisis. He’s first choice…
Clubs? Dunno about his work pre Ajax but everyday he spends here looking clueless diminishes what he did at Ajax and further adds weight to the argument it was more “an Ajax thing”.
We had good results last season and some excellent individual performances but it’s a massive stretch to suggest we’d implemented any form of proactive style. He’s also said himself we’re not going to play like his old teams. So he’s been here 22 months and we play the worse football many of us have seen in our lifetime and he’s said we won’t play like his old teams. His recruitment has been disastrous and for his reign at United he’s adamant he has the overall say on player recruitment. How can all those things be clear and yet you’re still sat here saying it’s least risky to keep him then hire someone else to try and get this team playing decent football. Do you see how that is a little flawed ?
I’d rather have any of the following. Bielsa, Gasperini, Inzaghi, Valverde, Pimienta, Sarri, Marcelino, Rose. Hell I’d take Xavi too even if its just to get someone in who’d command respect. Pointless discussion anyway because the club have their candidates but them having Southgate on that list tells me all I need to know about the knowledge this new regime possess on hiring a competent football manager. The managers I mentioned have cvs that piss all over Southgate yet absolutely none of them will be on this shortlist.
Any manager is a risk. But I don’t know on what planet retaining the coach who’s produced the worse football in our lifetime with the highest net spend (whst at the same time demanding he controls recruitment) who openly states he can’t get us playing the football his team played at his previous club isn’t the biggest risk of them all.
It's money wasted that could have been spent better. Simple.
On who?
Fred
So you don't know then. Just say that.
I know plenty but I'm not getting into naming a list of midfielders that we would have made more sense than Mount this season.
You obviously think he was the best way to spend it otherwise you wouldn't be arguing otherwise.
It's not money wasted because you still see Mount as an asset. That is the chronic flaw in your reasoning.
Yeah but he’s clearly first choice because he played the last first games because of errrm injury….What
Casemiro has been injured mate.
Yet you can't name one. Mount was an astute signing for multiple reasons.
April fools is pre-noon buddy.
Posting this twice is certainly a choice.
I admit to being a bit cheeky but Southgate and Allardyce do have fans. One of them is in line to become DoF . Sometimes better the devil you know.
Actually this made me think (I know, clearly a violation of forum rules) and conclude Uniteds problem number one, is the DM role. Whenever Casemiro was fit and in form, we was buzzing. Whenever he was out we went back to Ole/Jose variations of McTominay alongside an 18 y old kid.What
Casemiro has been injured mate.
We need a new reliable powerhouse DM, number one target transfer. Preferably a new captain. A CB is next. 3rd choice for me it has to be a new number 10 or at least someone that gives vice captain Bruno something to think about. If we can sell Rashford we need a new right wing.
But for any new or current manager to work, we need an outstanding DM.