I think it's a fine balance. I think dick swinging money wise has been done by this club to its massive detriment over the last ten years, so us actually negotiating like a proper machine is refreshing to me. Yes I'd like it to be sorted quicker, but there's clearly work being done behind the scenes, and that in itself is good, we aren't clued in.
Are you confident of success in the INEOS era?
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I’m a bit worried about the lack of money we’re going to have to spend in the summer without CL football. Will players even want to join us.
We shouldn’t give in and pay the 20m or whatever they want for Ashworth. That’s when other teams think they can rinse us for there players. If we actually start negotiating like a proper club then we won’t get conned and over pay for players anymore.
There are always good players available for reasonable fees on the market. The problem we've had is identifying them before they get snapped up by other teams
Young and hungry players should still see us as an attractive proposition. We're probably not gonna attract any superstars, but we probably shouldn't be trying to sign them anyway
Our highest ever revenue in a season was 2022/23 when we had no CL. If we make Europa league we will be fine. A big if at this stage.
How, they’ve been here for a few months
They’ll be weighing up options and starting a fresh in the summer. The glazers kept a manager that got thrashed 5-0 at home to the scousers and 6-1 at home to spurs.I’d rather us buy players who want to play for us, rather than players who want to get paid by us.
No more players like ADM and Schweinsteiger who primarily saw us as a pension windfall. I’d rather get the younger, non-marquee guys who want to play for us and we don’t give them a salary befitting of a someone who is deemed world-class or very close to that, either as soon as they walk through the door or have a few good performances.
Glazers are completely passive and Woodward embodied ’all book-smart, no street-smart’ as he got easily hustled like a mark all over Europe for players.
No more players like ADM and Schweinsteiger who primarily saw us as a pension windfall. I’d rather get the younger, non-marquee guys who want to play for us and we don’t give them a salary befitting of a someone who is deemed world-class or very close to that, either as soon as they walk through the door or have a few good performances.
Glazers are completely passive and Woodward embodied ’all book-smart, no street-smart’ as he got easily hustled like a mark all over Europe for players.
We can't go RM way where every South American stars would like to play for them. Hence, they can sign players young or established sometime with unbelievable prices.
For us, we need to go City's way. We have money to spend because we have one of the biggest revenues in football. But we also need a very good football structure which is major part of their success.
For me, the missing final jigsaw is to appoint a right manager. We could hit the jackpot sooner rather than later like Liverpool did with Klopp if we have a competent football people in charge.
To this day I still blame Ed failed negotiations with Klopp before he joined Liverpool. You can't send a football idiot to speak to one of the best coach ever.
For us, we need to go City's way. We have money to spend because we have one of the biggest revenues in football. But we also need a very good football structure which is major part of their success.
For me, the missing final jigsaw is to appoint a right manager. We could hit the jackpot sooner rather than later like Liverpool did with Klopp if we have a competent football people in charge.
To this day I still blame Ed failed negotiations with Klopp before he joined Liverpool. You can't send a football idiot to speak to one of the best coach ever.
But this is to build an uper tier not paying for a player. We will not have anyone legally identifying and signing the players we need. If he can save us a minimum £3/4 million on every player we sign, we will get this money back this summer. Whats the point waiting until 2025?
If they are to be successful then it will take time. But we’ll be able to tell right at the start - if they come in, sack the clueless ‘football’ people still here like Murtough etc - which they appear to be doing then its a good start.
All the hangovers from this failure of a decade need to go quite quickly - the manager, quite a few of the players.
If it doesn't happen at the start then the status quo continues and all of the poisonous shite and losing mentality will corrupt the new players etc and we’ll still be here in 10 years
All the hangovers from this failure of a decade need to go quite quickly - the manager, quite a few of the players.
If it doesn't happen at the start then the status quo continues and all of the poisonous shite and losing mentality will corrupt the new players etc and we’ll still be here in 10 years
Having logged in and to see they've still not booted him out I am now very concerned. You can't talk about best in class and say mediocrity will not be tolerated and keep this buffoon for as long as this.
I thought he'd be gone after the Liverpool game because it wouldn't be fair to throw his replacement in to have a loss as their first match but no the prat is still here so feck knows what their plans are.
I thought he'd be gone after the Liverpool game because it wouldn't be fair to throw his replacement in to have a loss as their first match but no the prat is still here so feck knows what their plans are.
I’m not confident at all.
Even with the best people in charge, the finest of transfer windows, and talent coming through the ranks. We are 3 years off competing for big titles.
We are currently lucky to be 7th. We haven't dominated any team this season, and only barely scraping through on induvial moments of players scoring worldies, usually against the run of play. The majority of our senior and most experienced players need to be shipped out, and they are the ones you need to get you over the line.
Re-building that balance is going to be a real slog. The only shoots of hope are the young players who have broken through, and the ones in the pipeline.
We are currently lucky to be 7th. We haven't dominated any team this season, and only barely scraping through on induvial moments of players scoring worldies, usually against the run of play. The majority of our senior and most experienced players need to be shipped out, and they are the ones you need to get you over the line.
Re-building that balance is going to be a real slog. The only shoots of hope are the young players who have broken through, and the ones in the pipeline.
People seem to forget how poor Villa were under Gerard and how utterly shite Spurs were last season and then lost the best forward in the world. Perhaps INeOS can identify both the manager and a few gems to propel us forward. We ain’t winning the league any time soon, but of course we can kick on next season with a good manager and a few shrew signings.
Have faith folk.
Have faith folk.
I am not even sure if Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox already started work/confirmed coming or not. At the moment I think the only one confirmed coming is Berrada.
Officially, we are still not confirming Ashworth and Wilcox. Hence, we are still 3 very important appointment away Ashworth, Wilcox and new manager.
We need to get this done asap way before the summer window open. Once these 3 important appointments are confirmed we need to also get in a few top class players in.
SJR need to act fast and time is running out.
Officially, we are still not confirming Ashworth and Wilcox. Hence, we are still 3 very important appointment away Ashworth, Wilcox and new manager.
We need to get this done asap way before the summer window open. Once these 3 important appointments are confirmed we need to also get in a few top class players in.
SJR need to act fast and time is running out.
I’m hopeful of getting it right with ineous but it I hope not expectation god know what’s going on behind the scenes. I don’t want trophies straight away, I want a team I can be proud of, I want a team that works hard and is solid, has patterns of play and has a real defined way of playing. Don’t care if we lose it’s how we’re losing and that’s the sad thing. Get rid of every player on 100k plus and start again. That’s my thinking
The key for INEOS is to find the right manager after Ten Hag. If they can land a top notch manager, they will be very successful. Focus on the manager first and the right players will come along to join.
The next manager is going to determine if they are successful or not. You can run a great operation on the backend but on the surface it's the pedigree of the manager that establishes the outfit of the club.
It will either be something we reflect on hindsight as being a poor decision allowing Erik to stagnate to a level of demise before coming to a decision on his tenure but I think it's merited given how significant the changes in the hierarchy have been.
It's a classic element of INEOS being thrown into the deep end and it always reflects on the former establishments poor position to plan efficiently. Unfortunately it's not just something revolved around the Glazers but even Sir Alex with the recommendation / accommodation of Moyes. United proverbially of recent history have been the tail in every function across the club aside the commercial interests which as a statement explains why the football side has been abysmal.
It will either be something we reflect on hindsight as being a poor decision allowing Erik to stagnate to a level of demise before coming to a decision on his tenure but I think it's merited given how significant the changes in the hierarchy have been.
It's a classic element of INEOS being thrown into the deep end and it always reflects on the former establishments poor position to plan efficiently. Unfortunately it's not just something revolved around the Glazers but even Sir Alex with the recommendation / accommodation of Moyes. United proverbially of recent history have been the tail in every function across the club aside the commercial interests which as a statement explains why the football side has been abysmal.
I agree. We need young, hungry and talented enough players. No need for world beaters you can't trust. If INEOS sticks with their plan (which may include staying with EtH - please no) so that the right persons are in place post gardening leave to make the right coaching appointments, so be it.
So Graham Bailey is saying that Ineos are prepared to push on with the transfer targets of the club (ie. ETH no doubt) this summer, so that we don't miss out on signings.
That would be worrying if true. I'd rather sign nobody.
That would be worrying if true. I'd rather sign nobody.
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Yeah targeting players that have the desire to play for us will prove beneficial in the long run
I will say one of the good barometers of sporting success is owners who give a shit. Just look at Wrexham. Look.at Abrahamovich , the UAE guys, Joe lacob, Jerry Buss, Robert kraft the list goes on and on. Of course it's not a guarantee of anything but now that we have someone who cares in charge, we have a fighting chance.
It's not like the Glazers and their vice roy have been setting the bar so high anyway, arguably the worst run club in the world, in term of football management during the past 10 years.
Jason Wilcox is now our technical director
I think it's supposed to be white smoke, like when they announce a new Pope.
I was listening to the Bill Simmons podcast a few months ago and they were talking about NBA contracts and how the mantra around the league was you have to "preserve the asset", with Bill essentially arguing outside a few heavy hitters that win you championships, this mantra doesn't actually make sense in sports. Whilst listening I couldn't help but flashback to Woodward and Phil Jones. Not to target Jones, but woodward, I believe if INEOS are going to succeed at MUFC we have to see them break this mantra which has infected the club. They have to set in motion a system which rewards a very minute number of players with good contracts and then take the club back to academy development, "hidden diamonds" and those that are focused on club over the biggest contract. Big spends limited to RVP/RvN, Berba type players that actually fill the holes and fix issues that managers are having with their squad options to make them championship/treble winners.
We cannot continue to be a club that fills out a squad with cashed up players that are, at best, squad-rotation players. It seems like we've done this to the worst excesses in the Post-SAF era because of some bizarre belief that "maintaining value" means we can either re-sell high or cook the books for our assets. Not every player deserves a bloody contract extension at 150-200 grand a week. It's ok to say no and lose players. I think we are seeing the mess play out at MUFC and are seeing it on steroids at Chelsea. We are bloating football clubs with "asset value" and how many of these contracts are we going to have to watch expire because European sports isn't treated like US sport? There's no salary cap for everyone to cap out on. We have uber-rich clubs, we have middling clubs and then we have poor clubs. No one below us is taking Maguires wages, no one below is is taking Martial's wages and so on.
So what does INEOS success look like, imo:
1. Our big purchases are limited to making the system work.
2. When we go into contract negotiations, we make it about the club over a pay-day. Not to screw players, but to say you are not irreplaceable to this club, we believe this is fair, if you are here only to "grab the bag", we'll find you another club.
3. We don't try to extend varane, Casemiro etc. Or if we do, it's made clear that these types of players are "niche" players and they are basically required to fill squad numbers and take enormous pay cuts.
4. Our squad buys are not panic buys. If you value Antony at 20 million and you can't get it done in time. That doesn't mean you spend 100 million. It means you move on to another target or hope there is an academy prospect. Get your evaluations correct, rank them and then stop acting like embarassed children that can't get their lollipop. Pick targets, value them, negotiate and move down the list if you can get them.
5. The manager doesn't dictate the club, but the club doesn't dictate the manager. When a manager comes in, its either someone that plays to the "club's style" or the club actively believes in the manager's system. Both sides then work to achieve the best transfer and footballing outcomes.
6. A realisation this isn't a one season fix. That next season the goal is not to win the league, but to see if the new personnel, the new club structure, some new in's and out's actually makes us look different on the pitch. I am sick of every season, every manager, every game essentially devolving into the same beige mush. When we are at our worst, it ALWAYS looks the same.
We cannot continue to be a club that fills out a squad with cashed up players that are, at best, squad-rotation players. It seems like we've done this to the worst excesses in the Post-SAF era because of some bizarre belief that "maintaining value" means we can either re-sell high or cook the books for our assets. Not every player deserves a bloody contract extension at 150-200 grand a week. It's ok to say no and lose players. I think we are seeing the mess play out at MUFC and are seeing it on steroids at Chelsea. We are bloating football clubs with "asset value" and how many of these contracts are we going to have to watch expire because European sports isn't treated like US sport? There's no salary cap for everyone to cap out on. We have uber-rich clubs, we have middling clubs and then we have poor clubs. No one below us is taking Maguires wages, no one below is is taking Martial's wages and so on.
So what does INEOS success look like, imo:
1. Our big purchases are limited to making the system work.
2. When we go into contract negotiations, we make it about the club over a pay-day. Not to screw players, but to say you are not irreplaceable to this club, we believe this is fair, if you are here only to "grab the bag", we'll find you another club.
3. We don't try to extend varane, Casemiro etc. Or if we do, it's made clear that these types of players are "niche" players and they are basically required to fill squad numbers and take enormous pay cuts.
4. Our squad buys are not panic buys. If you value Antony at 20 million and you can't get it done in time. That doesn't mean you spend 100 million. It means you move on to another target or hope there is an academy prospect. Get your evaluations correct, rank them and then stop acting like embarassed children that can't get their lollipop. Pick targets, value them, negotiate and move down the list if you can get them.
5. The manager doesn't dictate the club, but the club doesn't dictate the manager. When a manager comes in, its either someone that plays to the "club's style" or the club actively believes in the manager's system. Both sides then work to achieve the best transfer and footballing outcomes.
6. A realisation this isn't a one season fix. That next season the goal is not to win the league, but to see if the new personnel, the new club structure, some new in's and out's actually makes us look different on the pitch. I am sick of every season, every manager, every game essentially devolving into the same beige mush. When we are at our worst, it ALWAYS looks the same.
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We say we need to spend wisely but Ineos Cycling Team have shown that Ineos management do the complete opposite.
Three years is generous given our history of not parting ways with shite players. Hell, half of the time they even get a contract extension. I'd love to believe in a rebuild, but I have no trust.
Apart from a better recruitment strategy and a new manager, INEOS would do well overhauling our entire medical and fitness team including the facilities on offer. It has come to a point where farcical doesn’t quite cut it - we’ve had several injured players all season long. Whilst some would say Liverpool went through a similar crisis, we seem to have not overcome it or adapted to it.
Simple answer - Not Really
Everything Ineos touch looks cursed
Nice 2019 took over
Highest finish 5th again now 5th in 23/24
Took over in 2017 Lausanne Sport
Relegated twice, highest finish 6th and
every season in top league a negative GD
All Blacks 2021 - RWC losing Finalists 2023 they were very much the red hot favourites
Formula 1 Racing 2020 took over a team that had previously won the last 3 driver and constructors world titles.
Won 2020 Driver Lewis Hamilton Mercedes
Lost 2021, 2022 and 2023 and really not at the races which is why Lewis has left!
Cycling taking over from Sky in 2019-2024 they’ve been pretty successful 7 Tour de France wins but this could be down to Brailsford whose known as a genius in this sporting sector.
The obvious conclusion is they’ve had 7 years in football to learn their craft and as yet, they can’t even get Lausanne competing in the top 3 in a 10/12 team in the Swiss League, Nice are not making the CL any time soon and SjR whose trying to be all things to all man united fans right now doesn’t know himself if he’ll be successful, because he clearly doesn’t know what success looks like in professional football?
Yes he’s doing the right thing by letting best in class football people do the hiring and firing, but United need an elite coach and a huge overhaul of squad, another £1 billion plus a new stand another £2billion , he’s saying all the right words yet all their visiting carrington and the recent one on ones with staff have resulted in our last 7 PL results since his minority was ratified;
P7 W1 D3 L3 GS12 GC14, yes we’ve won a couple of Fa Cup games in his tenure but so far the record is shite and actually distinctly worse than after Xmas to late February when there was very little interference was being made By Brailsford!
I just keep thinking there is going to be too many chiefs and not enough Indians and we will become Mixed Messages United!
And it might actually get worse?
Everything Ineos touch looks cursed
Nice 2019 took over
Highest finish 5th again now 5th in 23/24
Took over in 2017 Lausanne Sport
Relegated twice, highest finish 6th and
every season in top league a negative GD
All Blacks 2021 - RWC losing Finalists 2023 they were very much the red hot favourites
Formula 1 Racing 2020 took over a team that had previously won the last 3 driver and constructors world titles.
Won 2020 Driver Lewis Hamilton Mercedes
Lost 2021, 2022 and 2023 and really not at the races which is why Lewis has left!
Cycling taking over from Sky in 2019-2024 they’ve been pretty successful 7 Tour de France wins but this could be down to Brailsford whose known as a genius in this sporting sector.
The obvious conclusion is they’ve had 7 years in football to learn their craft and as yet, they can’t even get Lausanne competing in the top 3 in a 10/12 team in the Swiss League, Nice are not making the CL any time soon and SjR whose trying to be all things to all man united fans right now doesn’t know himself if he’ll be successful, because he clearly doesn’t know what success looks like in professional football?
Yes he’s doing the right thing by letting best in class football people do the hiring and firing, but United need an elite coach and a huge overhaul of squad, another £1 billion plus a new stand another £2billion , he’s saying all the right words yet all their visiting carrington and the recent one on ones with staff have resulted in our last 7 PL results since his minority was ratified;
P7 W1 D3 L3 GS12 GC14, yes we’ve won a couple of Fa Cup games in his tenure but so far the record is shite and actually distinctly worse than after Xmas to late February when there was very little interference was being made By Brailsford!
I just keep thinking there is going to be too many chiefs and not enough Indians and we will become Mixed Messages United!
And it might actually get worse?
I am growing more unconfident for no reason other than the on pitch performances and manager making me think there is less and less of a platform to build from.
Think the only way we'd have got any real change was a full sale of the club so there might have been a way to restructure the finances longer term...although even then I wouldn't expect much to change quickly.
From the outside looking in it seems like they are trying to do all the right things, but without the investment needed to back up any plan its basically just shuffling bums around on different seats. You can have a plan that works if you finish 6th at most clubs. At United that's going to get you slaughtered.
Arenal have done it to a degree I guess but they did invest heavily and I don't think had as much of a mess to start with.
Think the only way we'd have got any real change was a full sale of the club so there might have been a way to restructure the finances longer term...although even then I wouldn't expect much to change quickly.
From the outside looking in it seems like they are trying to do all the right things, but without the investment needed to back up any plan its basically just shuffling bums around on different seats. You can have a plan that works if you finish 6th at most clubs. At United that's going to get you slaughtered.
Arenal have done it to a degree I guess but they did invest heavily and I don't think had as much of a mess to start with.
SJR agreed to buy a stake and take over footballing operations on Christmas Eve(that was just 4 months ago).
He was only approved by the PL a couple of months later.
he has picked his top team who all look like good appointments and they will all be in place over the next few months.
I will take time to undo around 19 years of Glazer greed and incompetence.
Have patience Rome wasn’t built in a day.
He was only approved by the PL a couple of months later.
he has picked his top team who all look like good appointments and they will all be in place over the next few months.
I will take time to undo around 19 years of Glazer greed and incompetence.
Have patience Rome wasn’t built in a day.
It’s promising so far, got rid of people like Murtough, and bringing in help from outside the club.
it’s all gonna come down to this summer, clearly we arn’t in a position where we should be spending big money with no director of football in place and Ten Hag clearly having been shown he can’t be trusted with transfers.
So if we start buying lots of players then I worry.
but if they take a long term view and don’t buy much with summer and get people in and evaluate the squad the scouting network with a view to the summer 2025 transfer window then I will be really encouraged.
it’s all gonna come down to this summer, clearly we arn’t in a position where we should be spending big money with no director of football in place and Ten Hag clearly having been shown he can’t be trusted with transfers.
So if we start buying lots of players then I worry.
but if they take a long term view and don’t buy much with summer and get people in and evaluate the squad the scouting network with a view to the summer 2025 transfer window then I will be really encouraged.
My hunch is the Glazers will still want their dividends, and I'm not sure if that money capsizes our competitiveness in a financial fair play era. If it does, the not for profit clubs (who are cheating the books in any case) will have an unbeatable advantage. So it's still Glazers out if we want to win anything consistently.
We should get some indication only after the first twelve months, if INEOS, is getting to grips with the things we all (think) we know about, and with the things we don't know about (sorry sounds a bit like Donald Rumsfeld and his known / unknowns).
The fact they are not just making out the blank cheque's, to get the top level management sorted, is I believe a good sign. The message has to go out... 'United are under new management and we are not getting fleeced anymore.. take note!
I regret to say it, but I don't expect to see that much change at 'pitch level' until all current injuries are sorted and a proper stock take on playing and on training staff, can commence.
We are in for at least a year of 'marching on the spot'.
The fact they are not just making out the blank cheque's, to get the top level management sorted, is I believe a good sign. The message has to go out... 'United are under new management and we are not getting fleeced anymore.. take note!
I regret to say it, but I don't expect to see that much change at 'pitch level' until all current injuries are sorted and a proper stock take on playing and on training staff, can commence.
We are in for at least a year of 'marching on the spot'.
SJR isn’t that stupid to put time,effort and his own money in at one end while the glazers just siphon it off at the other.
Reads like a wum post but I know it isn't one