Arsenal 2023/24 - Have bottled the Champions League and are Bottling the League

Rooney in Paris

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giorno said:
Bayern fans are obviously the least objective people around for this, as is usually the case. 3 years ago they were one of the best sides in history with Flick, that's their standard for "great" these days

Bayern were still on pace for 80+ points in the bundesliga before giving up on it entirely, have a had a number of just freak games(freiburg comes to mind) and their underlying metrics are actually better than Leverkusen's - and not by a small margin either. There's been some toxicity and some meltdowns along the way which, along with no longer being literally one of the best teams in football history, have fueled this impression of them not being great. They still are. Just not a team that's gonna be remembered unless they win the CL - which they might.

Kane, Musiala, Goretzka, Kimmich, Neuer, De Ligt, Sane, Gnabry, Muller, Davies...that's a better squad than arsenal's actually
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But pretty much everyone is unanimous in saying they're meh this season, with a departing manager and a subpar season (depends on the CL obviously) - apart from you and Arse fans (who will be even less objective than Bayern fans). And while the latter aren't maybe "objective" (what is, really, when it comes to foobtall?) they at least have the merit to have seen probably 90% more games than most other people, including you I would imagine?

Them having lots of points in the BL - big deal, it's the BL - and having strong names in the squad doesn't really negate the overall assessment of where they are as a team. And "great side" definitely seems like an over-exaggeration. I would imagine you're partly saying this in anticipation for the game against Real.
 

giorno

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I mean we could go around in circles over this. Bayern are still one of the very best teams in Europe this season. Let's put it that way
 

Robbie Boy

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Rooney in Paris said:
But pretty much everyone is unanimous in saying they're meh this season, with a departing manager and a subpar season (depends on the CL obviously) - apart from you and Arse fans (who will be even less objective than Bayern fans). And while the latter aren't maybe "objective" (what is, really, when it comes to foobtall?) they at least have the merit to have seen probably 90% more games than most other people, including you I would imagine?

Them having lots of points in the BL - big deal, it's the BL - and having strong names in the squad doesn't really negate the overall assessment of where they are as a team. And "great side" definitely seems like an over-exaggeration. I would imagine you're partly saying this in anticipation for the game against Real.
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Someone has to play the role of contrarian, though. It's kind of an unwritten Caf rule.
 

stefan92

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Rooney in Paris said:
But pretty much everyone is unanimous in saying they're meh this season, with a departing manager and a subpar season (depends on the CL obviously) - apart from you and Arse fans (who will be even less objective than Bayern fans). And while the latter aren't maybe "objective" (what is, really, when it comes to foobtall?) they at least have the merit to have seen probably 90% more games than most other people, including you I would imagine?

Them having lots of points in the BL - big deal, it's the BL - and having strong names in the squad doesn't really negate the overall assessment of where they are as a team. And "great side" definitely seems like an over-exaggeration. I would imagine you're partly saying this in anticipation for the game against Real.
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Bayern's big problem this season is their small squad, especially in defence where they really fecked up the transfer summer. Didn't get a new CB, didn't get a new DM. Some matches they arrived with only 15 or 16 players and didn't even fill the bench completely. It's a team full of makeshift solutions and of course it looks like shit quite often. Nonetheless they are grinding out results throughout the season. They can't do it always because sometimes their solutions didn't work and sometimes they are just overplayed as they can't rotate due to this.

Even when you dismiss the BL points total you still have to acknowledge that they are getting better results in the BL than last season. They don't get credit for it because Leverkusen is running so far in front, but there the problem still is that people don't recognize how good Leverkusen perform and still think they only win it because Bayern is weak. They aren't, they make the best out of a massively botched squad planning.
 

Rooney in Paris

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stefan92 said:
Bayern's big problem this season is their small squad, especially in defence where they really fecked up the transfer summer. Didn't get a new CB, didn't get a new DM. Some matches they arrived with only 15 or 16 players and didn't even fill the bench completely. It's a team full of makeshift solutions and of course it looks like shit quite often. Nonetheless they are grinding out results throughout the season. They can't do it always because sometimes their solutions didn't work and sometimes they are just overplayed as they can't rotate due to this.

Even when you dismiss the BL points total you still have to acknowledge that they are getting better results in the BL than last season. They don't get credit for it because Leverkusen is running so far in front, but there the problem still is that people don't recognize how good Leverkusen perform and still think they only win it because Bayern is weak. They aren't, they make the best out of a massively botched squad planning.
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So not a "great side" as the poster I was replying to said.
 

adexkola

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stefan92 said:
Bayern's big problem this season is their small squad, especially in defence where they really fecked up the transfer summer. Didn't get a new CB, didn't get a new DM. Some matches they arrived with only 15 or 16 players and didn't even fill the bench completely. It's a team full of makeshift solutions and of course it looks like shit quite often. Nonetheless they are grinding out results throughout the season. They can't do it always because sometimes their solutions didn't work and sometimes they are just overplayed as they can't rotate due to this.

Even when you dismiss the BL points total you still have to acknowledge that they are getting better results in the BL than last season. They don't get credit for it because Leverkusen is running so far in front, but there the problem still is that people don't recognize how good Leverkusen perform and still think they only win it because Bayern is weak. They aren't, they make the best out of a massively botched squad planning.
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They don't have youth players they can place on the bench?
 

stefan92

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adexkola said:
They don't have youth players they can place on the bench?
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Hard to bench them when they are already starting. :lol:

More serious, I think Tuchel did it to really drive his point about the messed up transfer summer home. Kind of a free seat on the bench for every attempted deadline day transfer that failed.
 

Rooney in Paris

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stefan92 said:
Well sometimes they are because sometimes they have enough fit players that can play in their best positions. It just rarely happened this season.
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A "great side" is a side that is consistent, that has a high base level, and isn't up and down like you described. That's not a "great side" - that's a team that "sometimes can put up a great performance".
 

stefan92

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Rooney in Paris said:
A "great side" is a side that is consistent, that has a high base level, and isn't up and down like you described. That's not a "great side" - that's a team that "sometimes can put up a great performance".
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OK, I agree with this. I tried to balance a bit between you and @giorno who claimed them to be a great side but probably not very well :lol:

Overall I think they are a pretty erratic side this season - them winning the CL but losing the cup to a third league team would emphasize it perfectly. It just heavily depends on daily form and injury status how they will perform.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Can't really say it's bottling the CL when no one expected Arsenal to win it.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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NicolaSacco said:
I think it’s the law to call it bottling on this board. This season’s 32 teams are made up of 31 bottlers and the eventual winner.
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You must be gutted your beloved City crashed out against Real Madrid. Being sent packing by one of the “old cabal” of European football must have an extra sting.
 

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ShinjiNinja26 said:
You must be gutted your beloved City crashed out against Real Madrid. Being sent packing by one of the “old cabal” of European football must have an extra sting.
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I have to admit I didn’t watch it, I was more invested in the Arsenal game as I lived there for my twenties and early thirties. Though I already know there is little point telling you that, as it doesn’t fit the narrative you’ve already decided. I hope you learn from this but I suspect you don’t want to!
 

AshRK

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The thing is this bayern should have been tested more by arsenal. I feel the occasion got to them. They got fortunate against Porto but if arsenal played like they have been playing in the league they would have probably even beat Bayern.

Overall, this was a missed opportunity.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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NicolaSacco said:
I have to admit I didn’t watch it, I was more invested in the Arsenal game as I lived there for my twenties and early thirties. Though I already know there is little point telling you that, as it doesn’t for the narrative you’ve already decided. I hope you learn from this but I suspect you don’t want to!
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Really? Now that explains things. We have turned Arsenal over a fair few times over the years, now I understand where your resentment of Utd comes from.
 

NicolaSacco

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AshRK said:
The thing is this bayern should have been tested more by arsenal. I feel the occasion got to them. They got fortunate against Porto but if arsenal played like they have been playing in the league they would have probably even beat Bayern.

Overall, this was a missed opportunity.
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Bayern were there for the taking- probably the worst they’ve been in several years, and I think arsenal are playing probably the best I’ve seen since Wenger left. I can’t fully understand why they played as they did though; as you say if they just had confidence and faith in their natural game, they may have got through.

I think it’s going to be a bit of a damp squib over the next 4 or 5 weeks or whatever it is. I can’t see them catching Liv or City, they’re out of the cups. Shane as I would have liked to see them go a bit deeper in the CL
 

NicolaSacco

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ShinjiNinja26 said:
Really? Now that explains things. We have turned Arsenal over a fair few times over the years, now I understand where your resentment of Utd comes from.
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Nice try, but it’s still Ipswich for me. I’ve never moped after a result for any other club, and I never will. Perhaps England now and again, although if offered the choice between an Ipswich promotion and England winning the Euros i wouldn’t have to think for a second. It’s Town every time.

You know, sometimes people can just disagree on a topic without there being some hidden underlying trigger!
 

Rooney in Paris

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NicolaSacco said:
Nice try, but it’s still Ipswich for me. I’ve never moped after a result for any other club, and I never will. Perhaps England now and again, although if offered the choice between an Ipswich promotion and England winning the Euros i wouldn’t have to think for a second. It’s Town every time.

You know, sometimes people can just disagree on a topic without there being some hidden underlying trigger!
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I mean, you very clearly hate Utd, but whatever.
 

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NicolaSacco said:
Bayern were there for the taking- probably the worst they’ve been in several years, and I think arsenal are playing probably the best I’ve seen since Wenger left. I can’t fully understand why they played as they did though; as you say if they just had confidence and faith in their natural game, they may have got through.
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Possible, but the bar wasn’t that high… this is how they’ve been doing out on the continent this season:




Could this really suggest they would beat Bayern in Munich? (The club with 1 defeat in their last 24 CL home games)
 

NicolaSacco

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Pintu said:
Possible, but the bar wasn’t that high… this is how they’ve been doing out on the continent this season:




Could this really suggest they would beat Bayern in Munich? (The club with 1 defeat in their last 24 CL home games)
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Yeah I can't really argue with anything you say. Bayern deserved to go through without a doubt
 

AshRK

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NicolaSacco said:
Bayern were there for the taking- probably the worst they’ve been in several years, and I think arsenal are playing probably the best I’ve seen since Wenger left. I can’t fully understand why they played as they did though; as you say if they just had confidence and faith in their natural game, they may have got through.

I think it’s going to be a bit of a damp squib over the next 4 or 5 weeks or whatever it is. I can’t see them catching Liv or City, they’re out of the cups. Shane as I would have liked to see them go a bit deeper in the CL
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They have to end the season well and not finish 6 or more points behind city. I feel arteta is a type of manager who will eventually struggle to fight on all fronts and hence he gives up on domestic cups but if you do that then you must win one of PL or CL eventually or else this whole things would look underwhelming.
 

Donaldo

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Should've stuffed Bayern in the first leg and shut them out properly in the second. Big missed opportunity. Bayern are extremely well organised and some of the veterans showed their quality but they're going to get knocked out in the semis, it's almost a given.
 

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Robbie Boy said:
Yeah, probably because they've been atrocious this season, have a weird manager who is departing in the summer and you lot are vastly overrated. Add all that together and you'll see why you were favourites. Bayern were there for the taking.
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It's easy to see why, but I never bought into it. You don't get the experience Bayern have overnight, and it's easy to see that a young Arsenal squad with a young manager who's never been in the CL, should never have been strong favourites. Slight favourites, maybe. Bayern still have a very good team with dangerous players all over the pitch. And a cup competition is a cup competition, league form goes out the window.
 

Robbie Boy

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GoonerGirly said:
It's easy to see why, but I never bought into it. You don't get the experience Bayern have overnight, and it's easy to see that a young Arsenal squad with a young manager who's never been in the CL, should never have been strong favourites. Slight favourites, maybe. Bayern still have a very good team with dangerous players all over the pitch. And a cup competition is a cup competition, league form goes out the window.
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You would class that side as "young" that you played? The average age of the staring 11 was 25.
 
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