in terms of UCL experience you'd say, yes they are quite young...
Arsenal 2023/24 - Have bottled the Champions League and are Bottling the League
- Thread starter horsechoker
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I wouldn't...
All their players have massive experience including European finals, CL winners, European finalists etc...
Jorginho, Jesus, Havertz and Rice did have experience of big international games, others don't. That's about 4 players out of the 14 who played against Bayern this week.
Still don't think bottled it is quite what's happened, but if they end this season with 0 trophies after the last 2 years then something isn't quite right.
I think in Europe especially where they don't have the experience they are just missing that Ronaldo/Salah/Benzema etc. type player who will either come up with a moment in a tight game or put enough fear into the other team/belief into their own team to prevent said moment going the other way. I don't think Saka is quite that player...maybe he can be but he isn't quite there yet. They are a better team than Bayern imo but they didn't really show it at any point.
With the league I dunno. City are just better. Its become a bit weird because everyone from Spurs downwards is, to some degree, a bunch of clowns. So its hard to judge exactly how good Arsenal are since a lot of the time a basic consistent level of competence will win them the game. Same with Liverpool, and they've even been getting away with joining in the circus show for the first 45 minutes of most games.
Also the thing is Keown makes watching Arsenal lose amusing because he is always supremely confident before the game based on irrelevant factors like "I saw the players getting off the coach", "I think the time is right" etc. You almost know what's coming in the big games as soon as he starts speaking. Even if you win these games it is rarely as simple or easy as that.
I think in Europe especially where they don't have the experience they are just missing that Ronaldo/Salah/Benzema etc. type player who will either come up with a moment in a tight game or put enough fear into the other team/belief into their own team to prevent said moment going the other way. I don't think Saka is quite that player...maybe he can be but he isn't quite there yet. They are a better team than Bayern imo but they didn't really show it at any point.
With the league I dunno. City are just better. Its become a bit weird because everyone from Spurs downwards is, to some degree, a bunch of clowns. So its hard to judge exactly how good Arsenal are since a lot of the time a basic consistent level of competence will win them the game. Same with Liverpool, and they've even been getting away with joining in the circus show for the first 45 minutes of most games.
Also the thing is Keown makes watching Arsenal lose amusing because he is always supremely confident before the game based on irrelevant factors like "I saw the players getting off the coach", "I think the time is right" etc. You almost know what's coming in the big games as soon as he starts speaking. Even if you win these games it is rarely as simple or easy as that.
Saka? Also, Saliba was in the French WC final squad, Tomayisu is a seasoned international, Odegaard is very experienced having been training with the Real Madrid first team at 16/17. So, that's about 8 out of 11 first team players that have a shit tonne of big game experience.
This isn't a young squad, it's merely another weak excuse.
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Also they probably had the least injuries and most consistent lineup in like ever. Can’t remember a team being able to play their (nearly) best 11 all season. Surely this factor will change to the bad for them next season.
Ok. They really do not give this vibe. They looked overwhelmed and almost scared in most of their European away ties. You’d expect experienced players to be comfortable going to Lens or Porto.
I mean Bayern, despite their issues, are still a good side. But, I felt Arsenal would win the tie. They messed it up imo and they can't use youth or inexperience as an excuse.
Both can be true.
Sure, but not when the average age of your starting 11 is 25, is full of seasoned internationals, CL winners, European Championship finalists, a WC runner up and a ECL winner.
This whole 'inexperience' angle is just weird, anyway. This is an expensively assembled squad full of mostly seasoned internationals. Was the Liverpool squad that made the CL final in 2018 littered with CL veterans.
If they finish on 74 points it will be one of the lowest point totals in their recent history. Last year they had 71 points and would have lost the title if it wasn't for Dortmund bottling it, but that season aside - you'll have to go back to the 10/11 season to find another year where it was lower.
They were too passive in their last few games, but that might just have been a result of being tired. They relied on the same 7-8 players for the whole season and they play an high-intensity style. Once again a situation, where a club needs to be really careful about the evaluation of their problems. I think Arsenal more than anything need to add quality depth, not mess with their whole set-up. They are young. They have leaders. They have a functioning starting 11. . I know they all yelling for the fancy big money solution. I´d target guys like Elanga and Awoniyi from Nottingham, Doughy from Luton Town or Kelly and Christie from Bournemouth. Young progressive with potential growth that won´t cost a fortune or upset the natural structure of the team.
Here are some facts about Awoniyi. 44 PL games: 16 G + 4A, puts in defensive shifts, scores with his head, left foot, right foot pretty evenly. Very high shot accuracy: 46% on target. That is in the same accuracy range as Haaland, Son, Isak and Watkins. Much higher than Salah, Bowen or Solanke. If you clear it up for penalties, Awoniyi might have the highest shot accuracy of them all. Obviously his sample size is much smaller, but he´s also just 26 years old. He´d actually be a very nice back-up/challenger for Hojland, too.
Here are some facts about Awoniyi. 44 PL games: 16 G + 4A, puts in defensive shifts, scores with his head, left foot, right foot pretty evenly. Very high shot accuracy: 46% on target. That is in the same accuracy range as Haaland, Son, Isak and Watkins. Much higher than Salah, Bowen or Solanke. If you clear it up for penalties, Awoniyi might have the highest shot accuracy of them all. Obviously his sample size is much smaller, but he´s also just 26 years old. He´d actually be a very nice back-up/challenger for Hojland, too.
We did mess up the Bayern game. We went 1-0 up, White should have made it 2-0. But we shouldn’t have chased the game. There was no need to. Then a catalogue of errors leads to the equaliser, you can also say similar allowing them to take the lead. Then you are chasing the game.
Now, it’s just a matter of opinion why we messed up. Inexperience, nervousness, tiredness, lack of quality, poor tactics, lack of bottle, take your pick, as it’s immeasurable really. Unfortunately knockout football tends to be unforgiving in these things.
It probably is, but after watching all the Wenger years CL campaigns of underperforming I pretty much expect us to lose at the QF/SF stage no matter who the competition isAh fair, hadn't seen it! Although it's pretty clearly a wind up
Of course its inexperience and inexperience doesn't equate to age.
Saliba, White and Gabriel barely have 10 caps each. Saliba played 23 minutes in the final game of World Cup group stages. Tomiyasu is a seasoned international playing against the likes of Myanmar, North Korea and Tajikstan but how does that translate to playing at the highest level of football? Odeegard played 2 CL games as a sub for Madrid.
Only 2 of our players have any real experience in the Champions League.
Raya - Never played CL
Ben White - Never played CL
Saliba - Never played CL
Gabriel - Played 6 group stage games for 1 season
Tomiyasu - Never played CL
Declan Rice - Never played CL
Jorginho - CL experience
Odeegard - 2 sub CL appearances for Real in the Group stage
Saka - Never played CL
Martinelli - Never played CL
Havertz - CL experience
Just looking to the way we lost highlights that its inexperience. Bayern didn't beat us by playing better football. We were dominating them at the Emirates and then gave away 2 cheap goals that were down to mistakes. At Bayern, it was 50-50 game with Bayern making use of their chance and then were able to kill the game and shut up shop after.
Our loss in the first leg against Porto was also down to inexperience. Instead of keeping the ball in the last few seconds of an away tie, Martinelli decided to play a risky pass that Porto capitalised on and scored. Hopefully they learn from this.
So, in a nutshell, it's a pretty experienced side overall. You're absolutely over-rating specific CL experience. As I said, was the Liverpool squad that made the 2018 CL Final littered with CL veterans? Seems a weak excuse to me.
You are delusional if you think we didn't deserve to lose against Bayern. For both legs they were unlucky and could have scored more as reflected by Xg : Bayern (3.69) 3-2 (1.95) Arsenal
Against Porto we created absolutely nothing during the first leg and got lucky in the end.
That's 4 consecutive CL games were we weren't at the level we want to be. It's not luck or inexperience, it's an issue Arteta will have to solve.
Kiwior has been so poor as of late that he is making Zinny's defensive skills look good
Where did I say that?
I didn't say we didn't deserve to lose, I said that Bayern didn't really beat us by playing better football, rather us handing them a win due to silly mistakes. We were leading 1-0 at the Emirates, had them on the ropes and could've gone 2-0 but then we made a series of mistakes and let them go 2-1 up which changed the complexion of tie allowing them to sit deep and play us on the counter which plays to their strengths given they have Kane, Musiala, Coman, Gnabry and Sane.
In terms of XG if you look at the graph, 1 XG was from Kanes penalty and 0.5 XG was from Gnabry's goal which we both handed them, 0.5 XG was from Koman's chance last minute. Other than the Coman chance, they created nothing for themselves rather us shooting ourselves in the foot which is my point. These mistakes might not get punished against Bournemouth or Brentford but elite teams will not give you a chance.
When you scored, it's because you were better than Bayern's best efforts could handle. And you even had them on the ropes! But of course, when they scored, it's only because you made unforced errors and let them go into the lead. Makes sense.
Are you the guy who, before the Porto tie, kept challenging people to name CL clubs who could beat Arsenal this season?
We need to get back with Martinelli in there . It's a little predictable out there.
Nope, neither was I one of the Arsenal or United fans who thought we would just walk all over Bayern and that the Champions League was just between us or City. Our lack of experience was always going to drag us down.
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Thank goodness for that. We look shattered.
You’re reaching
Experience also applies to managers. By the time Klopp took Liverpool to the 2018 final he had experience leading multiple CL campaigns with Dortmund including the experience of getting Dortmund to a CL final so I'd think he knew how to prepare the players better than Arteta did this year.
Ideally, Arteta will learn from this experience and have the team better prepared next year but like I said earlier, Arsenal has a history of not performing the best when it comes to European knockout competitions so I'll still be cynical personally.
Pretty solid performance defensively. Choked the game off very well. A couple of dopey moments but generally a high level of focus and I don't know what match the commentators were watching, but Wolves only had one real sniff. Our attack continues to be poor though. Three more difficult games left, especially the Spurs game of course. Don't think Chelsea will be an easy one, they look a little more difficult recently. It is entirely possible City could drop some points, but it is hard to see them doing that twice.
Very important 3 points. Have to credit for that today. Coming games are tricky so 3 points today was a must.
Good win. Trying to look on the positive side for them , four of City's remaining six games are away from home, the same for Liverpool actually, so there's more of a possibility of dropped points there?
If they can through the next two tricky fixtures against Spurs and Chelsea with two wins they could do it. It's just hard to see where City slip.
If they can through the next two tricky fixtures against Spurs and Chelsea with two wins they could do it. It's just hard to see where City slip.
Football heritage.
Next two games are going to be fun.
Wild guess which one we'll brainfart our way through...
Overall, our squad is the 3rd youngest in the league. Most of our squad (and our manager) have never played in the CL before this season. It is a pretty inexperienced squad that is only starting to figure out how to manage a title charge and CL campaign. And Bayern's starting 11's average age was 28, and many say their aging squad is something that needs addressing soon. May be an issue over 34 games in the league, but that extra experience is priceless in a cup competition.
Good win vs Wolves. Yes they are rampaged by injuries but it's always a tricky away tie and they do well against the "bigger" clubs. Havertz in midfield looked much better this time, I always thought he could do a decent job there against some of the lesser teams but it won't be enough against the better sides (e.g. Villa, Bayern). Think we controlled the game quite well and really limited their chances. Now onto Chelsea.
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It seems weird wanting arsenal to win the league but here we are
3 teams in it and the choices for you are so poor!
To be honest I am more nervous at home. At home we have been so sloppy too often last two years at crucial times because what happens is we don't score early and you can feel heavy tension by 30-40 mins and then the second half the crowd and the team are extremely tense and when we concede at this time we lose. Villa a classic example as are numerous home games last year, though ofcourse theoretically home should be easier but I feel more nervous at home.
I was going to say this. Our home crowd is good, but not as good as last year.
There has been a change to our ticket buying process which has nearly eliminated touts (a good thing) but made it a literal lottery for non-season ticket holders (like myself) to get tickets. Previously, if you paid to become a member and logged on the moment tickets became available, you could get them (I was able to get tickets to the NLD last season this way). Now there’s a random selection process. You could argue that it’s more fair (I run my own company, so I could just check out of work to get tickets as I have my priorities straight - an option not available to everyone) but I haven’t been able to make it to a league game this year. And I think Ashburton’s Army (as cringe as that name may be) did a great job of building atmosphere last season, but they’ve also been affected by the change.
But the main reason Emirates feels like less of a fortress is because last year felt like we were ahead of schedule. We coasted through the season on vibes until we burnt out at the finish line. There was a lot of hope but not a great deal of expectation and this transmitted to the team. Our home games are a lot more tense this season. We alleviated that by taking the lead early in pretty much every game in 2024. But when we could do that against Villa, the nerves really set in.
The past decade had basically been United's worst nightmare come true
You're right. The arsenal goals came despite Bayern executing their plans perfectly. In fact, no team in CL history could've stopped either of those goals. Even Mourinho's Inter. They were that good.
On the other hand, the goals that Arsenal conceded had nothing to do with Bayern outplaying them or forcing them into mistakes. They were basically pity goals Arsenal handed out because without extensive CL experience, how could they be expected to know that the objective of a CL tie is to score more goals than the opponent.