Let Israel do what it wants but the west need to stop help defending it. Leave the genocidal maniacs on their own.
Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
From what I’ve read in Israeli media over the last week, at least the English-language media, it’s been the IDF brass pushing for a forceful response to Iran, not Netanyahu. Now obviously that could be spin, but despite his growing international reputation as the Mad Dog of the Middle East, at home Netanyahu has often been regarded as quite cautious and wary of becoming embroiled in major conflicts, and a bit bumbling and indecisive in the face of direct threats in some circles. Until October he hadn’t presided over a major war, despite being Israel’s longest-serving PM. If he is indeed seeking a major conflict with Iran, then it seems like a big shift for him, and he’s certainly out of his comfort zone.
Israel - gets attacked unprovoked on October 7th by Hamas, an Iranian proxy, including a raid on it’s towns and 4000 rockets in one day
Israel - gets attacked again unprovoked on October 8th by Hizballa, another Iranian proxy, forced to evacuate 70K people from their homes because of ongoing anti tank missiles on its villages.
Israel - Goes after the perpatrators of such moves, including top ranking Iranian military officials, and gets attacked again with hundreds of drones and ballistic missiles.
ManUnited1999 - Israel should stop attacking the whole world.
Some people really do leave in a multiverse of madness.
A universe that everything started in 10/7
I don't think Netanyahu wants a war with Iran, as that would be simply too big and destructive, and I do believe the hostilities with Iran are over for now.
But I do believe he wants to keep some sort of war going, as that is an excuse to put on hold other issues such as his own future. At the moment he has the excuse due to the situation in Gaza and with Hezbollah. What happens if that's resolved? Who knows.
I’m in favor of eradicating Hamas (and other terror organizations), but not in favor of kids starvation.
Early in the conflict, I praised Biden for his actions. I appreciated his trip to Israel at that difficult moment for the country. I’m also OK with the U.S. helping Israel, against terror groups and against Iran. I despise the Iranian regime in every sense of the word and believe that the Iranian Revolution has turned out to be one of the worst events of Post WWII. I want the regime gone.
On the other hand, Israel takes bold actions without even consulting the U.S. That’s wrong. If Israel wants U.S. help (financial, military or political), it should coordinate its bold actions with the U.S. Is that too much to ask for? Attacking the Iranian consulate is a bold bold step that requires coordination with other countries, particularly the United States.
I want to see the collapse of the regime in Iran, but I don’t want a small country to drag us into a war. If we choose to go to a war (which I hope never happens), then I want that to be on our own terms. That’s not too much to ask for either.
As a Democrat, I always appreciated how Bush Senior and James Baker assembled a big coalition in 1990-91. If the U.S. Comes to the conclusion that attacking Iran to stop its nuclear ambitions is necessary, I would want it to prepare for that scenario and assemble a good coalition, one that could include Israel if both sides deem that in the best interest of all sides. Again: coordination is a key. If Israel doesn’t like this approach, I understand. They can do what they want, but they shouldn’t expect help from anyone.
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It was far less meaningful than its indirect attacks. Including October 7. Iran will attack in earnest if and when it suits China and that's not now. It may be never.
Hamas is an islamo-nationalist organization using terrorist methods if necessary for a political goal which is the independence of Palestine. In no way should it be comparable to terrorist organizations like say Al Qaida or ISIS. Small nuance that often gets lost in translation but essential to understand what's currently going on in Gaza and Palestine. Also noteworthy to remind the white knights that Israel and Netanyahu were big fans of theirs until it blew up in their face.
Are they the good guys? Not really. But with the Palestinian Authority being essentially bought off and acting like the equivalent of a Palestinian Vichy regime in the West Bank, Hamas is the only political organization left that still fights for a Palestinian state.
So did I.
Gotta love that the only thing that's bothering you isn't what Israel did but the fact that they didn't consult with the US beforehand.
So do I, but it's up to the Iranians and no one else, and that's not on your terms. The US has no right to interfere with the domestic matters of another country. I thought that after more than seven decades of organized coups d'état and failed wars, millions of people dead and trillions of dollars wasted, the US and its people would know by now that you can't export "democracy" at gunpoint. By reading your post, it seems that some still didn't get the memo.
Bush Sr. was worried about the oil fields in Kuwait and eager to get rid of a proxy which went rogue and ceased to be useful. The yes-men in the West followed and the Arab dictatorships in the region were happy to oblige, all for their own selfish interests. Stars aligned and all that.
That's exactly the kind of thinking that brought us to where we are, and why the whole world is going to shit. Also the reason why Iran is seeking to acquire nukes. To avoid the fate of Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, or Syria. MAD is actually a thing and could bring some stability in the region.
You'll never get the Arab dictators to directly side with Israel in a war against another muslim country, Shia or not. That'll never fly with their populations.
You seem to be stuck in the beginning of nineties and never moved on from there. The world has changed, the US has changed. You're living in some kind of La-la-land and fail to acknowledge that the US has been the most violent and most agressive country in the world since the end of WWII, with millions of deaths on its conscience. If any, the major source of death, misery and the current biggest threat to security in the Middle-East is the US, not Iran.
How about the US backing the feck off, calling back its mad dog on a rampage, and for once playing by international laws?
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History didn’t start in October 7th.
Please read all of my posts in this thread and the Gaza thread. I don’t like the conduct of Israel, but I certainly don’t like when they do something this bold without coordination.
No where in this thread did I claim that the U.S. is perfect, and it's faulty like many other countries throughout history. The war in Iraq was a disaster and unjustified.
But, if the choice is between the U.S./France/U.K., on the one hand, and Iran/Russia/NK/China, on the other, I will always choose the former. In America, I won't be thrown into a cold prison without anyone knowing my fate. Nor would that happen to me on French soil. And despite its shortcoming, the U.S. is one reason why Russia hasn't attacked more European countries since Putin took over more than 20 years ago.
The Iranian regime is terrible, and Iran has been threatening Israel for nearly 20 years. That's wrong. Their proxies have caused a lot of trouble to Israel, which is wrong too. You should recognize that. I certainly do. I just don't like an attack like the one on the Iranian consulate, just like I don't want to see an attack on Moscow. I'm in favor of avoiding wars as much as possible.
If a war becomes necessary, the U.S. should go to it on its own terms, not dragged into it.
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Unprovoked?
Errm...... Talk about cherry picking events and making it seem like Israel are the victims in all of this and Iran are the big bad guys. Unprovoked? Really?
Not to mention also yet again connecting Hamas to Iran and October 7th despite that being debunked over and over again, also backed up by Iran's own admissions and US intelligence suggesting that they were not warned or part of the attacks.
You're accusing someone of living in a multiverse of madness while you yourself are living in one where it's black and white when the truth, as always, is somewhere in between and includes a huge history of events that you omit to mention or perceivably consider.
On top of that, Hamas are not an Iranian proxy in the same way Hezbollah or the Houthis are. Yes Iran have links to Hamas, but Hamas are a separate group with their own agenda and reasons for existing and carrying out attacks.
Yet again the truth of all this is the entire region is suffering and now the whole world is on tenterhooks because of historical grudges, historical entitlement, Religion, tribalism, greed, arrogance and a feck ton of other reasons.
Nothing will ever be solved all the time Israel is allowed to hold the rest of the region to ransom because of it's continual backing from the US and by proxy the UK and other countries. At the same time nothing will be solved until the Palestinian issue is resolved, or Iran continues to continually provoke and threaten and support the terror groups that they often use and hide behind. Iran aren't innocent and their regime and leadership is a serious concern, but that doesn't mean Israel or the US or their allies should just swoop in and force a change by force. Too many innocent people would suffer and we don't need another war if it can be avoided.
As much as it pains me to say it, I'm can't blame Iran for seeking nuclear capabilities as having Israel as the sole holder of nukes in the region isn't good either. Especially when you have a government and leader like they do in charge at the moment and especially with the backing they have because as we have seen it encourages Israel to act with impunity and with a complete and utter arrogance and disdain to everyone else in the region. Not to mention, acting without consent and against international laws.
I don't have the answers, I don't claim to, but the one thing I do know is that the majority of the world and especially the Middle East is absolutely sick and tired of all this endless war and hate and fear. I firmly believe in where there is a will there is a way and with compromise and the right people in charge peace is a possibility. I just think we are a long way from that due to the Iranian leadership, the Israeli leadership and the current US and UK governments. The ineptitude of the UN and the combined impotence of the system and the will of the members as a whole also makes their involvement non existent. The infighting and political point scoring between the US and China and Russia coupled with each countries own agendas and history in the region just makes any agreement or positive involvement near impossible. That's not even considering the weapons industry rubbing its metaphorical hands with glee at the thought of war.
It's just so fecking depressing and again I go back to the main issue for me is that the cost to human life is the real tragedy. The leading powers need to come together to reign Israel and Iran in along with the various terrorist organisations and work for the world as impartial mediators and possible peacekeepers. However we seem to be going down the same route of of taking sides and that could ultimately end up causing more death and destruction and ensuring this shitshow continues for years to come. It seems we still haven't learned anything, but I think that's naive to be honest. We have learned, it's just arrogance and or the possibility the powers that be actually don't want to solve things and would rather it does escalate further. I'd like to be positive and say it's just arrogance, but with Iran and Israel's hatred and current leaderships stance and the hard on the US has had for Iran for years makes me unable to discount the possibility that some actually do want war.
Just read Israel's response was to take out one of the air defence radars for Iran's Natanz nuclear facilities. So a very specific message about what a possible escalation could have looked like.
You probably have a lot of replies to read to this, but just to add: this is total fecking nonsense.
unprovoked
Unfortunetly the Biden administration semms bent on de-escalation police in almost a religious like commitment to it. Whatever happens, the answer that comes is “Defend and de escalate”. That can not work in the long term, Iranian proxies are trying to choke Israel, both on the battle front using missiles, drones and other ammunition from 6 (!) different countries (Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and now Iran), and both economically by attempting to block international trade from arriving to Israeli ports through the Red Sea.
Israel listened to the Biden aministration on the Yemen front, and 6 month on any ships with connection to israeli business men still gets attached near the red sea, even outside Yemeni water. If we let Iran dictate the equation now as well, this will get much worse in the future.
For the record. I do not want americans to fight our wars for us. I am even againts receiving american tax payers money. I think it makes Israel too dependent on american politics, and that is bad for us in my opinion. In reality, that does happen and I understand every american who oposes it, but that cant be used as leverage to stop Israel from protecting it’s interest and borders from such attacks.
If you think your so called idea of occupation is a “provocation” that should result in a massacre of 20 communities and young people in a rave, and the abduction of 250 people, most of whom are not military personnel, thats on you.unprovoked
and even by those crooked standards, youre welcome to remind me when was the last Israel “provoked” Hizballa to warrant their ongoing attacks since October 8th, and much less the Houthies in Yemen.
Or is it your opinion that Israel’s enemies can do what they want to “protect” the Gazan people, including firing anti tank missiles at villages and homes, and drones, cruise and ballistic missiles from Yemen for the past 6 months , but Israel should do nothing againts it?
Great argument, thanks.
I’m waiting for you to provide an event that happened from October 7th to October 8th that you can use as an excuse for Hizballa to attack Israel less than 24 hours after it’s biggest terror attack since it’s inception, while it still battles Hamas terrorists in the south.
What an interesting way of framing the situation.
Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups that have long declared war against Israel. Israel has also long declared war on them, it’s not like 7th October broke a large era of peace did it?
Gaza is an open air prison, with Israel and Egypt shutting off easy access since at least 2006 I believe. That is a place under siege. Hamas’ attack was an atrocity, but let’s not pretend that Israeli terrorist groups (e.g. settlers) haven’t been murdering innocent Palestinians for decades - and since 7th October the sheer number of murder in the West Bank by Israeli’s has been abominable.
34,000+ people have been indiscriminately killed since 7th October in Gaza alone and Israel is no nearer to wiping out Hamas. The vast majority of those killed are women and children.
Israel has always reacted disproportionately to Arab backlash. E.g. bulldozing the houses of family members of arrested suspects.
Do you not appreciate the resentment that Palestinians and their Arab kin have for Israel? And do you think Israel’s actions since 7th October will help ease that resentment or make it worse in the long run?
Thank you for your dignified and detailed response. That is truly not a given in this place unfortunetly.
Iran has publicly funded, armed and trained Hamas terrorists. Just because it didnt knew the specifics, doesnt release them from their part in it. And as all their proxies rallied to defend Hamas and attack Israel since that day, very much less so.
I do not claim Israel to be perfect, as an Israeli I have a lot of criticism for our leadership.
However people view Israel’s handling of the palestinian, none can justify what happend on October 7th. And whatever people choose to focus on is their choice, butfact to the matter is - Israel tried to ease the situation for the Gazan people. By allowing workers to come in to Israel and make an honest living, by allowing Qatari money to enter directly into Hamas to fund it’s social services (and we all know where that money went eventually). We disegaged fron Gaza 20 years ago, and got nothing but wars to show for it, all started by Hamas and islamic Jihad.
You can criticize our decision to control the sea and airspace from the Israeli side, thats a fair point to argue on whether that was necessery. What you cant ignore is the fact the there is another country that borders Gaza, and implemented exactly the same policy, that is Egypt. Perhaps it is just not wise to allow a terror organization to control a territory.
Israel did all it could to avoide going into Gaza. Bibi received a lot of criticism for his decision making on that matter, time after time rockets were fired as far as Tel Aviv and even further for the past 10 years, and we stayed out. People here have the audacity the paint Hamas as some sort of political movement for palestinian freedom, while Hamas doesnt give a sh*t about palestinian people. It built tunnels all across Gaza, and not one bomb shelter for its people. It used all money and supplies that were donated to the palestinian people to build the biggest terror base on the planet. It implented its army facilities near and inside schools, hospitals and residential homes. The suffering of the palestinian people is on Hamas first and foremost, and rational people would agree to that even if they have criticism for the israeli army and decision makers.
Its people here who makes this situation black and white. Like theres bad and evil, poor and rich, strong and weak. Thats not the case. People who pretend everything can be solved in the blink of an eye are either naive or lying.
when was the last time Israel and Hizballa had a full on conflict before 2023? What was Hizballa’s reason to open that front?
Gaza is sieged since 2006 because after Israel evacuated every living and dead jew from Gaza and awarded it to the palestinian authority, that palestinian people went to elections and chose Hamas, followed by Hamas throwing the PA’s officials from roof tops and firing rockets inside Israel constantly.
Do I think we are perfect? Absolutely not. Do I want the Gazan people to suffer? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I want this war to end, I have friends fighting over there, I have family living there. None of us want this. The only way this can happen is if Hamas surrenders.
And saying we are nocloser to eradicate Hamas is a mere fallacy, Hamas is firing rockets to israel for years, and even now when most israeli soldiers left gaza Hamas is barely able to fire anything even to villages near the border. Israel’s operation againts Hamas’s rocket infrastructure and manufacturing was an absolute success. Hopefully once the work is done in Deirel Ballah and Rafiah, we can have better future for the israeli villages near the border and for the palestinian people whose suffering is saddening and no israeli wanted to go in to that place.
right on queue here are the straw men
Funny how attacks on israeli land are considered “straw men” argument for a conversation about Israel attacking other countries.
As long as you keep your objectiveness I guess.
You are welcome. I only try to post as I see things, and I will always side with those who suffer most yet deserve it the least.
Yes, you're right, Hamas are a bunch of murderous terrorists at the core. Yes their tactics are despicable and yes they have an agenda that although aligns with the Palestinian people, their methods and ultimate desire absolutely does not. And I agree they should share some responsibility for what has and is continuing to happen in all of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. I also agree that they care more about their goals than the people they claim to be representing.
What I won't agree with though is the absolute whitewashing of history, facts and truths. Someone else said Palestinians should be grateful they were allowed to work in Israel. Woop de fecking doo! How about stop controlling them, terrorising them, kidnapping them, falsely imprisoning them, torturing them, murdering them and stealing their land. Stop controlling their energy and water resources, stop the curfews, stop the apartheid like conditions and stealing their land in the West Bank. Let them have their own lives and be in control of their own land.
Moreso, stop the holier than thou bullshit when you act all surprised that Hamas rise up I n defiance of it all. I'm not defending or condoning them or their tactics at all, just understanding why.
Unless others, yourself included look at things that way this shit will never ever end. Well, if Netenyahu wipes everyone out it could do. But all he's doing now is creating decades more of HAMAS fighters who will be more determined and have more reason to be more brutal and extreme in their retorts. At the same time someone should be slapping down the Israelis who gather to stop aid trucks or to watch Gaza getting bombed. The Israeli population needs a educational reboot as much as the government does.
Yes Iran have funded and aided Hamas, but they didn't know of the Oct 7th attacks. They have some responsibility for it, but not as much as is being put on them. Their fight with Israel is a separate issue and one that needs to be dealt with swiftly. I do accept that will be difficult with the leadership of the two countries.
Your last paragraph regarding schools, hospitals etc would have made sense back in October or November but not now. Israel have attacked unarmed kids at school, hospitals, gone in on foot and shot everyone in hospitals, bombed everything, all infrastructure, entire towns and villages, universities, mosques, churches, refugee camps, aid stations. They have sniped from afar and killed up close and recorded it and posted it for all to see. They have systematically destroyed sn entire region. feck, they even had an open day where people went to see proposals for waterside apartments to be built in an area the IDF had flattened.
There is no justification, no defence, no argument. The same as there is no doubting their intentions and it's fecking sick, depraved and among the worst atrocities in recent times. Made worse because of how it's been played out on social media with many IDF criminals uploading their vile inhumane shite while gloating about it. You say Israel did everything to avoid going in to Gaza, I disagree. They knew Hamas would act and they were waiting for it. Hamas stupidly gave them the excuse and now the poor people are paying the price. And then some.
Netenyahu is probably wanking himself silly over all this, and to stick a finger in his arse before he came, Iran went and made his fantasy complete. Sorry to be so crude, but I'm losing patience with all this. The same as I'm absolutely disgusted with my own country and their ineptitude and pathetic response while still funding Israel. The USA is far worse and I'm apoplectic with disgust for them as I am with Germany that have shown themselves to be truly spinless weasels. Even worse is they got publically mugged off the other day by the country they have pissed everyone else off for defending.
Meanwhile innocent men, women and children are dying by the hundreds each day with over a million starving and nowhere to return to if it all ended now. Yet still some claim they deserve it or should accept it for an election nearly 20 years ago and one they ultimately had little say in anyway.
It just needs to stop NOW! And Israel needs to put every penny it receives from the US, UK and everywhere else in to rebuilding Gaza. It needs to halt the occupation of the West Bank and it needs to support the removal and evacuation of Jews who have settled there illegally. Then it needs to accept Palestine as a State in its own right. They both need to release hostages and the two need to work together to ensure this bullshit doesn't happen again. And the fecking USA and UK and the rest of the world need to mediate and enforce it. Germany can opt out and make suits and cars for everyone as they are good at that.
Seriously though, in this day and age this can't go on. Israelis can't be living in fear and Palestinians can't be kept like fecking pets. If all this has taught us anything then at least let it be that the only way to peace is a bit of give and take. I don't think it's too much to ask to give the Palestinians their land and freedom back. I guarantee they would hand Hamas over like a shot if that deal was on the table.
But I'm an absolute idealist at heart and sadly none of that will happen due to pride, arrogance,.vengeance, religion and pure hatred. But I accept that. I won't accept one sided bullshit takes or cherry picking that makes Israel out to be the victim. Especially now seeing as they feel they are untouchable to the point where they defy the USA and carry out attacks on foreign consulates on foreign soil. They are taking the fecking piss and they need to be told so.
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I would hate to have @langster as a counter. Too much text to answer. As a lazy person i would let you win
I can be a tad verbose at times. I just get carried away. You should see some of my anti hard house and happy hardcore rants on Discogs.
Actually, don't.
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Great post.
I am sorry but Israel are not victims. They are a terrorists just like Hamas. Targetting innocent and celebrating it. Only difference is they got weapons to level cities as they have clearly demonstrated.
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And thats how it should be, clear explanation. It's not you, it's me
more complete horseshit you're on a role!!
https://www.tiktok.com/@pulseofpal/video/7360358703897447712?_t=8lkIGb2c7mK&_r=1
Let's keep an eye on this flotilla and the brave people going in.
Let's keep an eye on this flotilla and the brave people going in.
Toomaj Salehi, Iran's most famous rapper (almost all work about societal problems, protests, criticizing the regime's policies and treatments of civilians) who was arrested in fall 2022 during the Mahsa Amini protests, has just been sentenced to Execution.
Execution , DEATH , for the crime of making music.
Meanwhile, the "Morality Police" who New York Times falsely claimed had been abolished (as they do often whitewash the regime's crimes), is back stricter than ever. They even arrested the wife and daughter of Iran's most legendary ex-goalkeeper, Ahmad Reza Abedzadeh last weekend. Here is a video of how they take girls from the streets into those scary vans and god knows what happens once inside there.
Honestly, you only have to be Iranian and know the details-know how of how this mafia regime operates to truly understand its level of evil. Genuinely think in the entire universe, maybe North Korea only comes close, but at least they don't have Morality Police. I'm really trying to think of a worse regime, probably Taliban, but that's all.
And that's not mentioning the economic situation. On the day Shah left Iran in 1979, 7 Iranian toman was 1 USD , now 70,000 toman is 1 USD.
I still believe they are very close to the end, it's like the last few years of USSR ... but they are going more reckless and evil than ever even by their own standards. It feels like trying to burn everything to the ground as they crumble.
Execution , DEATH , for the crime of making music.
Meanwhile, the "Morality Police" who New York Times falsely claimed had been abolished (as they do often whitewash the regime's crimes), is back stricter than ever. They even arrested the wife and daughter of Iran's most legendary ex-goalkeeper, Ahmad Reza Abedzadeh last weekend. Here is a video of how they take girls from the streets into those scary vans and god knows what happens once inside there.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Honestly, you only have to be Iranian and know the details-know how of how this mafia regime operates to truly understand its level of evil. Genuinely think in the entire universe, maybe North Korea only comes close, but at least they don't have Morality Police. I'm really trying to think of a worse regime, probably Taliban, but that's all.
And that's not mentioning the economic situation. On the day Shah left Iran in 1979, 7 Iranian toman was 1 USD , now 70,000 toman is 1 USD.
I still believe they are very close to the end, it's like the last few years of USSR ... but they are going more reckless and evil than ever even by their own standards. It feels like trying to burn everything to the ground as they crumble.
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What's this got to do with Israel?
This threat is about ISRAEL , IRAN, and regional players.
I know the supporters of "Resistance Front" love the Islamic Republic in Iran, because that's the sugar daddy that funds the entire proxies...but it comes at cost of lives and prosperity of our own citizens and country.
Plus, some here in this thread have equalled the level of evil of IR regime with Israeli gov't which frankly is laughable. Few months before Oct 7, there were 200,000 protestors in streets of Tel Aviv protesting their gov't, and not a single person was injured let alone killed. Now compare that with how Iranian regime treats its own people.
There's already a thread to discuss Iranian internal politics, and Mahsa Amini killing - Revolution in Iran | RedCafe.net
Laughable. Israel regularly "mows the lawn" in Gaza and is operating an apartheid in the West Bank. What the Iranian regime is doing to it's people is evil, what the Israeli regime is doing to the Palestinians is evil. The main difference is that the Iranian people actually disagree with their government for the most part.
What @Hanks posted is relevant to this thread, as internal politics drives the external no more so than in Israel and Iran. So this is an important context to why the Iranian government behaves in the way it does.
Also, to simply ignore his post is a disgrace, when his country is being hurt daily by Khamanei and his instruments of state - and has likely been personally affected.
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I don't think he's been personally affected - from memory he left Iran decades ago and lives in Canada now along with his family (I could have him mixed up with another poster though).
The reason I said there's a thread for it is because there is - one I've even commented on on how abhorrent it is. The specific examples of his post are literally a continuation of the fallout of the Mahsa Amini killing.
This thread in particular is centred on Israel and Iran's behaviour vis a vis Palestine and their implications for other nations in the region.
Anyway, I'm not a mod, so feel free to disregard.
No, you do have a point. The other thread may be better for domestic Iranian things like demonstrations etc.