So the only way to compete is to be sheep? No I don’t agree. An innovative coach will find another way to play. Football works in cycles. Something else will be the new fad in a few years.What argument is your example backing up though? That because Liverpool's tactics worked in the 80s they'll work today? Football moves on, otherwise that approach would still be dominating.
There is more than one way to play, but when one way is the approach taken by the vast majority of teams that have any success at the moment, then in order to share in that success we need to get with the program.
Is he even really good with his feets?Ten Hag got it wrong. Even with no injuries, we do not have the players or system to be able to play out of the back. This should have come first, before spending big on a keeper who is apparently great with his feet, but, as we have seen, is poor with his gloves.
Yes don’t be daft.Is he even really good with his feets?
It doesn't tell us anything about the quality of the shots/headers and if there should/could have been more. That's the problem with just using one bit of data. If we were just using this as gospel, then Thomas Kaminski would be considered the best keeper in the Premiership. I don't think that's the case?He has made more saves than every other goalkeeper in the league this seaon other than Luton's keeper who has made one more.
Most Premier League Saves 2023/24
1. Thomas Kaminski 138
2. André Onana 137
3. Alphonse Areola 129
4. Bernd Leno125
5. José Sá 123
That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?He has made more saves than every other goalkeeper in the league this seaon other than Luton's keeper who has made one more.
Most Premier League Saves 2023/24
1. Thomas Kaminski 138
2. André Onana 137
3. Alphonse Areola 129
4. Bernd Leno125
5. José Sá 123
He may be but there are "cheaper" GKs who is equivalent or better than him with the feets while also good at shot stopping. To spend 50M from DDG to Onana is criminal.Yes don’t be daft.
I don't think that he is that good, he isn't bad though. I see him closer to average than anything else.Yes don’t be daft.
Yeah, isn't that list close to the list of teams that conceded the most shots?That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?
shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded
that gives context
Quite possibly, haven’t checked. Just not a fan of data on its own to show a positive or a negative. Its like changing the dates of a graph so it shows the trend for whatever narrative you’re sellingYeah, isn't that list close to the list of teams that conceded the most shots?
Shots conceded (on target)Yeah, isn't that list close to the list of teams that conceded the most shots?
But it proves the claim I replied to that he doesnt even try to make saves is incorrectThat doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?
shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded
that gives context
Agreed, raw data are generally useless. You need to put them in context, whether it is quality or frequency. But looking at this one, the other names made me think about some of the worst defensive teams in the league.Quite possibly, haven’t checked. Just not a fan of data on its own to show a positive or a negative. Its like changing the dates of a graph so it shows the trend for whatever narrative you’re selling
I forgot that saves was only for shot on targets, so yeah your list is more relevant than mine.Shots conceded (on target)
1. Sheffield United (256)
2. West Ham United (233)
3. Burnley (232)
4. Luton Town (217)
5. Wolves (197)
6. Man United (194)
7. Bournemouth (187)
8. Newcastle (185)
9. Fulham (182)
10. Chelsea (177)
Yeah pretty much. Bolded are teams with keepers listed above.
His save percentage is 72.4% for comparison to the others:That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?
shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded
that gives context
What?Is he even really good with his feets?
Thanks that’s helpful.His save percentage is 72.4% for comparison to the others:
Kaminski - 64.3%
Areola - 74.4% (really like him as a keeper, but I am baffled at how often he gets injured)
Leno - 72.2%
Sa - 72.6%
Onana, Kaminski and Areola have roughly an even PSxG-GA, where as Leno it -5 and Sa is a whopping +4.8.
So really, he's a just above average shot stopper, but he's good on the ball. People can draw their own conclusions whether that's good enough. My personal opinion is he's a good keeper with some good qualities (I think his passing could be outstanding quality, but in a better set up team), but with some flaws. Which is probably what you could say about pretty much every keeper for the top teams currently bar Alisson.
Of shot-stopping, probably so. My guess is that keepers nowadays are asked to be both keepers and CBs, which make them less specialized at keepers stuff (saving shots and catching crosses).Thanks that’s helpful.
is it just me or has the standard of keeping dropped a bit in recent years?
Don't bother, Goalkeeper specialists on here analyzed his every move and decided he is shit, terrible, worst keeper we have had, a fraud etc. Too bad so many professional GK scouts didn't have the brilliant knowledge of our Caftards on here.Im not saying he is the 2nd best keeper in the league but he isnt shite either and im fed up of people on here blaming him for every goal we conceed when he is playing in a really poorly coached team with no defence or midfield and opposition that are free to shoot at his goal at will.
The fact that he has 8 clean sheets in the league despite all of the issues above is evidence that he is a decent keeper.
I see people arguing he’s faced so many shots that he’s going to concede goals. And that’s true - we’ve faced 618 shots this PL season. Derby in 07/08 (the worst PL team of all time) faced 629. We’re going to break that record!Im not saying he is the 2nd best keeper in the league but he isnt shite either and im fed up of people on here blaming him for every goal we conceed when he is playing in a really poorly coached team with no defence or midfield and opposition that are free to shoot at his goal at will.
The fact that he has 8 clean sheets in the league despite all of the issues above is evidence that he is a decent keeper.
Every keeper makes mistakes (some more than others), but Onana just has so many more opportunities to make a mistake than every United keeper before him that I would actually give him some leeway here. Could he be improved on? Yes, surely. But not playing so open would also help him first.I see people arguing he’s faced so many shots that he’s going to concede goals. And that’s true - we’ve faced 618 shots this PL season. Derby in 07/08 (the worst PL team of all time) faced 629. We’re going to break that record!
However for me it’s more about the eye test. I don’t need stats to tell me that he should’ve saved at least 2 of the goals on Monday. There’s been so many instances, a bit like when Barthez was here, you’re just asking if he could’ve done better.
There was a stat floating around earlier this season that we had conceded the second most shots in league history, behind only Derby County's record breaking season. Some other sources are saying we have the most shots conceded in the league this season. Others say we are 17th. Whatever it really is, it is total shite and no keeper can be judged fairly when our goal is being peppered with an average (a fecking average) of almost 20 shots per game.The post mentioned De Gea, but was about Onana, not him. The point is, we moved away from prioritising saving the ball with passing the ball.
De Gea let cheap goals in towards the end as howlers. As I pointed out, Onana simply lets too many saveable shots in that are not even mistakes. He’s just poor at shot stopping. We’re mot talking about him dropping the ball, or it squirming under him. Just shots that aren’t particularly hard or placed in the corner that he makes an effort to save but can’t. De Gea, even at the end, was NEVER that guy. Unless he was making a clear clanger, he was saving anything that was not exceptionally struck.
Whether or not De Gea had to go is one thing, but he had to go because he was making too many mistakes, not because he was not making enough assists. Our priority in replacing him should have been saving the ball. Some people had it in their heads that he needed to go because he lacked creativity or something.
That’s fair. We’ve got so many areas to address this summer that unless the replacement is free I can see the new boss just trying to shore things up and see how we do with a well drilled defence.Every keeper makes mistakes (some more than others), but Onana just has so many more opportunities to make a mistake than every United keeper before him that I would actually give him some leeway here. Could he be improved on? Yes, surely. But not playing so open would also help him first.
DDG's shotstopping also declined a bit during the last years. I don't think he would look much better if he was still playing this season.
I was going to say the same. If a goalie has faced 300 shots over a season and saved 100, yet a top team goalie has faced only 100 shots but saved 50, how can you judge the 100 shot stops ar better? These lists need to use percentages.That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?
shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded
that gives context
By current PL standards, he's average.Yes don’t be daft.
Feet. Feets just sounds adorable.He may be but there are "cheaper" GKs who is equivalent or better than him with the feets while also good at shot stopping. To spend 50M from DDG to Onana is criminal.
Thank you, Sir!Feet. Feets just sounds adorable.
Definitely feels like it, but as @Revan it's probably because it's not the sole thing their focused on. They also seem less crazy as they used to be, maybe there's a correlation there!Thanks that’s helpful.
is it just me or has the standard of keeping dropped a bit in recent years?
He's above average to be fair to him, the quality does seem to be low though. Really it's only Alisson, Emi Martinez and Pope (even though he's been injured) that stand out. Then there's a tier below where you could argue the merits of their different qualities - take Raya for example he is dominant in the air , but is in the bottom 10 percentile for PSxG/SOT.By current PL standards, he's average.
As I imagined no reliable source quotes those numbers nor “long term” as there was really very little reliable info on the terms agreed. So nothing clear and long term, not sure I even saw a report quoting a longer contract that 2 years but it's also speculating. Obviously he rejected the other proposal because that's what you do when someone treat you the way the club/ETH did.Drastically reduced wages yes, but that would still make him the highest paid goalkeeper in the country. It's just that he was on such an absurd salary to begin with that even the drastic reduction was such a large amount. That offer was rescinded, and then the club offered a lower salary which DDG rejected. The reports were generally all very clear on this, here are a couple of reports from a quick search: one, two. So to be absolutely clear about this, our only option for keeping DDG was on a long term contract with him as the best paid goalkeeper in the country, as we offered him a more reasonable deal and he rejected it. It was that, or lose him and bring in a new keeper.
Your final paragraph is a fallacy. You're trying to combine 2 separate decisions into one, making the first one seem bad because the second one has gone badly. Just because his replacement hasn't been good enough, that doesn't mean the decision to get rid of an underperforming player on an inflated contract is a bad one.
Yes beating the Buffon fee for half a million, the other list I saw last night missed Buffon somehow. His real worth is about 12-15 million euros mate. We'd struggle to get than if we were selling him this summer. The 4th most expensive GK, Onana, a bargain you said earlier.He's the 4th* most expensive GK ever, and even if I wouldn't go as far as to say he was a bargain, it was a reasonable fee for 43 million and it's probably what his real worth it. We certainly didn't overpay like we did with Antony. Same thing goes for Mount. No midfielder at the age of 24 with his ability and achievements in football will go for less than 55 million.
I've been impressed with the distribution of a number of keepers this season, even at lower rated teams. Henderson was the first keeper I've seen in a while who went long so much, but it looked tactical as he was nearly putting players through on goal with one pass. Ederson is a much better passer than Onana. I think he's the best, to be honest. But the likes of Steele at Bournemouth, Sanchez at Chelsea I also think are better or at least as good. Muric is a backup keeper but he looked good last week. Most keepers in the PL are good with the ball these days, and I don't think Onana stands out really.He's above average to be fair to him, the quality does seem to be low though. Really it's only Alisson, Emi Martinez and Pope (even though he's been injured) that stand out. Then there's a tier below where you could argue the merits of their different qualities - take Raya for example he is dominant in the air , but is in the bottom 10 percentile for PSxG/SOT.
I didn't say he was a bargain. Claiming he's worth 12-15m euros just shows me once again that you don't know what you're talking about. Pointless to continue this conversation for now.As I imagined no reliable source quotes those numbers nor “long term” as there was really very little reliable info on the terms agreed. So nothing clear and long term, not sure I even saw a report quoting a longer contract that 2 years but it's also speculating. Obviously he rejected the other proposal because that's what you do when someone treat you the way the club/ETH did.
The last paragraph is important because when the DDG situation is discussed it's always his contract and how much he cost the club, so for context it's important to understand what we got into is actually much worse, considering our other needs that were also evident 12 months ago. DDG was actually one of our better performers last year IMO, of course that you probably disagree with that.
Yes beating the Buffon fee for half a million, the other list I saw last night missed Buffon somehow. His real worth is about 12-15 million euros mate. We'd struggle to get than if we were selling him this summer. The 4th most expensive GK, Onana, a bargain you said earlier.
I don't know if Ederson is a much better passer to be honest. He's definitely better, but watching the CL final last year, there were some extremely impressive passes from Onana to break City's press and start counter attacks.I've been impressed with the distribution of a number of keepers this season, even at lower rated teams. Henderson was the first keeper I've seen in a while who went long so much, but it looked tactical as he was nearly putting players through on goal with one pass. Ederson is a much better passer than Onana. I think he's the best, to be honest. But the likes of Steele at Bournemouth, Sanchez at Chelsea I also think are better or at least as good. Muric is a backup keeper but he looked good last week. Most keepers in the PL are good with the ball these days, and I don't think Onana stands out really.
Claiming he is only worth 12-15m Euro's is ludicrus to be honest, goalkeepers from City Academy with very little real expirience have been sold for more than that.I didn't say he was a bargain. Claiming he's worth 12-15m euros just shows me once again that you don't know what you're talking about. Pointless to continue this conversation for now.
Yeah but it's pointless to talk any sense on here in times like these. This place is just an echo chamber for doom and gloom posters when the team is in a crisis.Claiming he is only worth 12-15m Euro's is ludicrus to be honest, goalkeepers from City Academy with very little real expirience have been sold for more than that.
Come on mate, you don't get to slate my sources as unreliable given that you've provided no evidence at all, only quoting your vague memory of some reports that may or may not exist.As I imagined no reliable source quotes those numbers nor “long term” as there was really very little reliable info on the terms agreed. So nothing clear and long term, not sure I even saw a report quoting a longer contract that 2 years but it's also speculating. Obviously he rejected the other proposal because that's what you do when someone treat you the way the club/ETH did.
The last paragraph is important because when the DDG situation is discussed it's always his contract and how much he cost the club, so for context it's important to understand what we got into is actually much worse, considering our other needs that were also evident 12 months ago. DDG was actually one of our better performers last year IMO, of course that you probably disagree with that.
So because someone will eventually find another style of football that will dominate, we shouldn't try to adopt what's almost a requisite for success at the moment? That logic doesn't add up for me, and it's very silly to suggest that adoption an approach that almost every successful team takes at the moment means being a "sheep". Sporting (and non sporting) history is filled with innovations that became a requirement for others wishing to avoid being left behind.So the only way to compete is to be sheep? No I don’t agree. An innovative coach will find another way to play. Football works in cycles. Something else will be the new fad in a few years.
we clearly can’t play out from the back very well, we don’t see real benefits so in the longer term I’d like my goalkeeper to be dominant and have a high level in his basics. That will win us more points than a keeper who can pass the ball
