Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position

Should ETH be kept on or fired by INEOS


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stevoc

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There may have been times (have definitely been times) when mistakes over appointments or sackings have been made, timings in particular and luck has played a part, but in the modern era and going forward this gamble has to be reduced.

You mention sackings of LvG, Jose and Ole, you could add Moyes as well, but this was under the Glazer's total control of the club and who had no idea (except to keep the 'cash cow' going) and they either panicked or pandered to those who shout the loudest.... what it didn't involve was proper succession planning, other than perhaps the objective to sell more shirts.


No the Glazers didn't have a clue, their planning was piss poor. Gill has said there was a succession plan for SAF but Fergie threw a spanner in those works.

After that Woodward just picked big names without considering their styles, but then waited too long to sack them when they inevitably failed.

There's no way to completely avoid risk when appointing a new boss. You can make all the plans in the world but you never truly know how someone will perform until they're actually in the job.

It pains me to admit it, but we need look no further than our neighbours';

Pep Guardiola's appointment was not a managerial risk, and he does not rely on luck.

As far as can be ascertained City's succession planning, which included the harshness of telling the incumbent manager (who was still in with a shout in 4 competitions at this time) and also making it public that he would be let go at the end of the season regardless, it was ruthless, but has been shown to be highly effective.
While it has worked for them its not really a great example that we could replicate.

It's not realistic to find a top manager like Pep then throw buckets of cash at some of his friends who also happen to be highly successful football executives.

United aren't funded by a financial doping nation state. I doubt United could afford to buy an entire football as a 'gift' to a managers brother that I'm sure in no way swayed Pep towards joining City.

And United definitely can't cheat to unprecedented levels to buy players to suit Pep or anyone's style years before they even start in the job.

A lot of stars had to align for all that to happen. There was still risk and luck involved.
 

stevoc

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Yes, playing more pragmatic may have gotten us 5th/6th but that was not why he was hired. He came to implement a new style, not scrape results like Mourinho.
An effective style, an entertaining one, or both?

Because this season the style he's implemented has offered neither.
 

JPRouve

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However what people expected and wanted was the style at Ajax. That's why he was a fan favourite for the job.
I am fairly certain he tried to play a sort of possession football in some games in the start of last season. Definitely not in the big games though.
True but it's something I disagreed with. I'm pretty sure that I mentioned it more than once but ETH isn't a possession manager, I tried to tell people that he was on the german side of things and between Rangnick and Tuchel.

I agree with that but it applies to pretty much all managers and they all have influences from the managers they studied or met. It doesn't make the vast majority of them part of a school and in this case ETH isn't part of anything resembling a Guardiola school.

In the case of the OP only Kompany could make sense because Arteta, Xavi and Guardiola all come from the same academy while ETH is very different from the others, he is closer to the german "school".
The way I see ten Hag, he isn't far from someone like Nagelsmann. Both approaches suit the fundations that Rangnick builds which are a clear understanding of aggressive and high press, tactical flexibility and a high defensive line. Then depending on the players at your disposal you can go with something more or less direct, in a way you can look at the spectrum of approaches from Rangnick to the most possession oriented versions of Dortmund/Liverpool under Klopp or Tuchel. People should keep in mind that Rangnick ideas aren't that restrictive.
 

Yagami

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His "style" apparently resulted in a 7-0 defeat to our biggest rival.
That understandably gets all the attention but I think the 6-3 was just as bad. We were just more fortunate in that game in terms of Martial coming on and playing well enough to earn us another two goals.
 

Fallon d'Floor

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PL head to head record

Pep:

4 games
1 win
3 losses
-7 GD

Klopp:
4 games
1 win
2 draws
1 loss
-6 GD

Arteta:
4 games
1 win
3 losses
-2 GD

Emery:
4 games
3 wins
1 loss
+2 GD

Ange:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Howe:
4 games
1 win
1 draw
2 losses
-2 GD

Moyes:
4 games
2 wins
2 losses
+1 GD

Poch:
2 games
1 win
1 loss
0 GD

Iraola
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-3 GD

De Zerbri:
3 games
1 win
2 losses
-1 GD

Frank:
4 games
2 wins
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Conte:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

Potter:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-1 GD

Domestic cups h2H record

Howe:
2 games
1 win
1 loss
-1 GD

Emery:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

Moyes:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

De Zerbri:
1 game
1 draw
0 GD

Pep:
1 game
1 loss
-1 GD

Klopp:
1 game
1 win
+1 GD

European h2h record

Xavi:

2 games
1 win
1 draw
+1 GD

Tuchel:
2 games
2 losses
-2 GD

51 games
19 wins
9 draws
23 losses
-19 GD
37.25% win rate
 

Raoul

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PL head to head record

Pep:

4 games
1 win
3 losses
-7 GD

Klopp:
4 games
1 win
2 draws
1 loss
-6 GD

Arteta:
4 games
1 win
3 losses
-2 GD

Emery:
4 games
3 wins
1 loss
+2 GD

Ange:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Howe:
4 games
1 win
1 draw
2 losses
-2 GD

Moyes:
4 games
2 wins
2 losses
+1 GD

Poch:
2 games
1 win
1 loss
0 GD

Iraola
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-3 GD

De Zerbri:
3 games
1 win
2 losses
-1 GD

Frank:
4 games
2 wins
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Conte:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

Potter:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-1 GD

Domestic cups h2H record

Howe:
2 games
1 win
1 loss
-1 GD

Emery:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

Moyes:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

De Zerbri:
1 game
1 draw
0 GD

Pep:
1 game
1 loss
-1 GD

Klopp:
1 game
1 win
+1 GD

European h2h record

Xavi:

2 games
1 win
1 draw
+1 GD

Tuchel:
2 games
2 losses
-2 GD

51 games
19 wins
9 draws
23 losses
-19 GD
37.25% win rate
At the end of the day, the only three things that will matter are our final table position, whether we made the CL, and whether our trajectory this year was an improvement from last year. Unless we improbably beat City, the club is clearly going in reverse under ETH at the moment. Hopefully SJR doesn't buy into the narrative that injuries were the real problem.
 

The Firestarter

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At the end of the day, the only three things that will matter are our final table position, whether we made the CL, and whether our trajectory this year was an improvement from last year. Unless we improbably beat City, the club is clearly going in reverse under ETH at the moment. Hopefully SJR doesn't buy into the narrative that injuries were the real problem.
If we are to believe the new "structure" it won't be solely sirJim decision. Have my doubts though.
 

Fallon d'Floor

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At the end of the day, the only three things that will matter are our final table position, whether we made the CL, and whether our trajectory this year was an improvement from last year. Unless we improbably beat City, the club is clearly going in reverse under ETH at the moment. Hopefully SJR doesn't buy into the narrative that injuries were the real problem.
Hopefully. Even the Glazers wouldn't tolerate this.
 

mintyred

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It's like saying eating dog shite is better cuz previously you ate horse shite. Being better than the other one doesnt mean he's good. Anyhow I actually think our players are flattering our league position. We have 44 xPts (+14 differential) while having lower xPts than Crystal Palace to Fulham (10-14th). The only top 10 team with lower xPts than us is West Ham. If anything he's the one holding back our "shite" players. I am not saying all of them have been good, some are utter crap and need to go next season but the players are not as bad as he make us believe. Also it is hinted that all these injuries stemmed from his training methods. Obviously we cant be sure 100% but seeing the way we defend every game just make sense from the injury standpoint. We have no rest defence at all
Don’t know why people are crying over this comment, he’s trying to save face as anyone else would. Not saying his comments were smart just pointing out it wasn’t disrespectful towards our heritage.
 

Alpha 1

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While I agree that we could have made the European spots if he'd been more pragmatic, I wouldn't define reaching those spots as long term progress.

We've made those spots more often than not the past 10 years and we've been going absolutely nowhere as a club. I'd much rather we focus on building a playing style and getting the right players in rather than worrying about European spots.

That's not to say the progress is necessarily there with Ten Hag, that will bear out (or not) next season, but I'm glad at least he stuck to his guns rather than compromising.
And "sticking to his guns" is playing garbage football? If he had stubbornly played a style of football that was a step in the right direction, I'd have gladly kept him even if the results weren't great. Something like Klopp early in his tenure.
 

RedStarUnited

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INEOS would argue he's saved money by having the player wages drop 25% a week, saving about £1m per week.

Also a year out could be a saving grace. Just concentrate on the domestic competitions and see how it goes.
We came out of Europe in December and the season just kept getting worse and worse
 

SAF is the GOAT

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I wish we could do that throughout the whole game.
They pinned us down to our 16-yard box to at least the first half.

 

TsuWave

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Anecdotal, but United just had their worst prem finish and it feels as though most people just collectively shrugged. That "hated, adored - never ignored" slogan might have to be revisited soon. It's not looking good
 

Maticmaker

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There's no way to completely avoid risk when appointing a new boss. You can make all the plans in the world but you never truly know how someone will perform until they're actually in the job.
I do think you can narrow the risk by effective succession planning, but United are prone to mistakes; why in the world would you appoint a man like Moyes with his limited experience (at the time). Or a man like LvG who was almost retired when we brought him in. Then there was Jose who had experienced his top days ( winning a treble) at Inter and his success in the PL with Chelsea, and at times he looked like he was actively seeking the sack and one big clue, we somehow missed, was he was never going to stay anyway, as he lived out of the top floor suite at Manchester hotel all the time he was manager at United. Ole was a great temporary appointment, lifted the gloom, instilled some confidence got a few playing with a smile on their face, but he was never going to be the long term answer when the 'Bon Ami' he introduced, ran out... but we made him permanent because the noise from some sections of the fans.

I would argue all these mistakes could have been avoided with proper succession planning approaches, had there been a VAR in terms of management selection, it would have flagged up a 'clear and obvious mistake.
Also with ETH', he made his name in Dutch football and it would be 'clear and obvious' he would need time to acclimatize to the EPL.

Of course 'acts of God', including perhaps unheard of lists of long term injuries, do occur, and are difficult for anyone to manage, but they can be factored into succession planning, especially how individual managers react under pressure, do they adapt and/ or try play to their strengths, or do the stick to their ideas come what may and soldier on?

While it has worked for them its not really a great example that we could replicate.
We can learn from it, especially the selection of a known quantity that has had success in given circumstances.

Pep's career to date is almost entirely built on taking jobs where he knows his demands will be met /capable of being met, before he signs up; he doesn't worry where the money comes from or how it does, as long as its available to him when he wants it, for who he wants. Pep said recently that everything he asks for he gets from City.

I am not saying we can compete with City in providing everything our chosen manager asks for, but we have to get very close to it if we want that sort of success we had under Fergie and under Busby. It was a different time and circumstances for both of them, but the key thing was both men were visionaries, Busby want to be in European football and wouldn't let the football League prevent us taking that step. Alex Ferguson understood about the impact the PL would have and he steered a path that has led to the clubs record of 13 PL titles still not bettered.

We need another such visionary for our next manager and it wouldn't be through tossing the dice and/or not properly assessing risk, we get one.
 

NLunited

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An effective style, an entertaining one, or both?

Because this season the style he's implemented has offered neither.
When it works it is very entertaining and effective, it has worked at times this season. Never for a full 90 minutes though.
 

edgecutter

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We pay him 9 million a year to coach the team to 8th place. He's taking the club for a ride and making gullible fans believe he deserves to remain here.
 

frostbite

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Anecdotal, but United just had their worst prem finish and it feels as though most people just collectively shrugged. That "hated, adored - never ignored" slogan might have to be revisited soon. It's not looking good
Nobody cares about the 8th team. Unfortunately, if next year we are 6th, some people will consider it "progress", ie this is long term damage. ETH should have been sacked in November or earlier, we should not have tolerated failure for so long.
 

DJ_21

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So the last 2 games we’ve beat 2 decent teams whilst having some players back from injury. With 3/4 very good signings next year and selling some deadwood l, I think we’ll be in a very good position.
 

sunama

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I think ETH has to be put out of his misery as soon as the FA Cup is done.
The new manager must be appointed quickly so he can make preparations for next season.
If we delay his sacking, next season will be a write-off.
If ETH is allowed to continue, next season will also be a write-off.

Writing off seasons every year, is a ridiculous strategy to use and those who sanction that strategy should also be sacked.
 

sunama

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So the last 2 games we’ve beat 2 decent teams whilst having some players back from injury. With 3/4 very good signings next year and selling some deadwood l, I think we’ll be in a very good position.
It is shocking that any fan would think this way.
We have just finished the worst season in decades. We have taken a significant step backwards since ETH arrived. He has been given one of the highest budgets in World football and the net result is complete failure.
In my company, if he was working for me and I gave him a huge budget to work with and he failed as he did, it would be gross negligence on my part, to allow him to continue.
If ETH is sacked, he'll probably accept that that is the right decision.
 

Zumbi

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I just don't see how certain posters square two things they're simlutaenously posting:
1. This squad is broken and they'd only keep 10 odd players
2. ETH should be doing better with the above

I guess we'll see. By Christmas it'll be one or the other: we'll see a massive improvement with new players or he'll be gone.
The squad not being good enough and the manager’s team selection, set up, tactics and in game management not being good enough are not two mutually exclusive things. Why on earth would you think they are mutually exclusive?

They can both be true, and there are very obvious ways to address these two distinct deficiencies. The first is get a better manager. The second is get better players.
 

Cloud7

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INEOS would argue he's saved money by having the player wages drop 25% a week, saving about £1m per week.

Also a year out could be a saving grace. Just concentrate on the domestic competitions and see how it goes.
We have concentrated on the domestic competitions for the vast majority of this season after we came last in our CL group.

We have seen exactly how it goes with ETH
 

Cloud7

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If your tactics can only work properly if one or two players are on the field (The excuse being Martinez and Shaw missing for most of the season) and can’t be properly implemented with the substitute players then I would say that those are poor tactics.

Injuries are a normal part of football, and you aren’t going to always have bench players who can do the same things the starting players can. An inability to be flexible and not adapt to the players at your disposal is not a quality I think should be commended in a manager.

If you see something isn’t working for half a season, I don’t see pushing forward with that idea regardless of the outcome as something to be praised.
 

stevoc

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I do think you can narrow the risk by effective succession planning, but United are prone to mistakes; why in the world would you appoint a man like Moyes with his limited experience (at the time). Or a man like LvG who was almost retired when we brought him in. Then there was Jose who had experienced his top days ( winning a treble) at Inter and his success in the PL with Chelsea, and at times he looked like he was actively seeking the sack and one big clue, we somehow missed, was he was never going to stay anyway, as he lived out of the top floor suite at Manchester hotel all the time he was manager at United. Ole was a great temporary appointment, lifted the gloom, instilled some confidence got a few playing with a smile on their face, but he was never going to be the long term answer when the 'Bon Ami' he introduced, ran out... but we made him permanent because the noise from some sections of the fans.

I would argue all these mistakes could have been avoided with proper succession planning approaches, had there been a VAR in terms of management selection, it would have flagged up a 'clear and obvious mistake.
Also with ETH', he made his name in Dutch football and it would be 'clear and obvious' he would need time to acclimatize to the EPL.

Of course 'acts of God', including perhaps unheard of lists of long term injuries, do occur, and are difficult for anyone to manage, but they can be factored into succession planning, especially how individual managers react under pressure, do they adapt and/ or try play to their strengths, or do the stick to their ideas come what may and soldier on?
Moyes was Fergusons decision, as I said Fergie started the ball rolling on the poor succession planning. Waited too long to tel the club he was retiring so they just said ''feck it, you choose your successor''.

Yeah every manager would need some time to acclimate to a new league, but he's had two year now mate. We've gotten worse the longer he's been here.

We can learn from it, especially the selection of a known quantity that has had success in given circumstances.

Pep's career to date is almost entirely built on taking jobs where he knows his demands will be met /capable of being met, before he signs up; he doesn't worry where the money comes from or how it does, as long as its available to him when he wants it, for who he wants. Pep said recently that everything he asks for he gets from City.

I am not saying we can compete with City in providing everything our chosen manager asks for, but we have to get very close to it if we want that sort of success we had under Fergie and under Busby. It was a different time and circumstances for both of them, but the key thing was both men were visionaries, Busby want to be in European football and wouldn't let the football League prevent us taking that step. Alex Ferguson understood about the impact the PL would have and he steered a path that has led to the clubs record of 13 PL titles still not bettered.

We need another such visionary for our next manager and it wouldn't be through tossing the dice and/or not properly assessing risk, we get one.
A different time indeed. I don't agree that we need another Fergie or a Busby, that's the old football model where a manager comes in and shapes the club to his liking rebuilding it form the gorund up. That's half the reason we're in the current mess we are, we hired average or past it managers and gave them the keys to the club hoping they would turn into Fergie, some are still hoping for that with Ten Hag. We don't need that if Ineos restructure the club properly then the position of manager a la Busby and Ferguson no longer exists. We'll only have a head coach, the DOF and Technical directors will be guiding and shaping the club. It'll hopefully be a much better system because if the managers failing they are much more replaceable, you sack them and hire someone else but the squad planning/building carries on uninterrupted above them. Under Louis, Erik and Jose, Ol eand Moyes to a lesser extent we've basically ripped the squad up every time one of them came in and let them build their own squad. At great unnecessary expense which is why we've ended up with such disjointed squads post SAF.

The idea of us finding another Fergie is a lovely thought. But there's a reason there was 40 years between hiring Busby and Ferguson. They were once in a generation managers, personally I hope those days are gone as I'd prefer we don't waste another 10-20 years looking for Fergie mk2.
 

Borninthe80ts

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I think people get frustrated because some of the arguments are shifting goalposts.

Earlier in the season the argument was that X/Y/Z players were needed in order to play well. Wait until those players come back and things will be different.
But then some of those players returned and United weren't really much better.
Then the argument shifted to a less concrete one: injuries are 'disruptive' and thus the team can't play well regardless of who's available.

There are countearguments to either of those but they are met with "well the situation is not the same." No situation is ever the same.
I can understand frustrations and even anger but after a while I too calm down and try to assess why even if it goes against what I want or believe.

I too believe that a lack of a spine to the team will affect performances but there’s been more than that that’s affected to environment, mindset and thus performances of the team. Some of those the manager has been responsible for and some not. But to claim those situations either have no effect or minimal is disingenuous to me.

The insults to me then compound the situation as to me they highlight the lack of constructive criticism and just open it up to hate and ignorance.

Not saying this is you but a lot of people only acknowledge the information that feeds their current views.