“Attack wins you games, defence wins you titles”

[Red00012]

A famous quote by SAF so should this be where ETH should concentrate on in the summer 1st and foremost. Granted we are not going to be league contenders next season but this needs sorting . More goals conceded than Burnley this season is damning

DDG - player of the season but him been the last line of defence doesn’t help the back 4 as he is glued to his goal line most of the time. Has absolutely no control of his penalty area . Far from our biggest problem but he needs replacing soon
Verdict - Keep (Short Term)

Henderson - looks like he won’t stay another season and sit on the bench so will probably move on
Verdict - Sell

Luke Shaw - Has been poor this season and not helped by niggly injuries. We need back to his England form. He’s just Not an option as back up as he more than anyone needs needs match fitness
Verdict - Keep

Alex Telles - Needs to be got rid of . He can’t defend , can’t attack and hits the 1st man for every cross
Verdict -Sell

Brandon Williams - possibly going to be back up for Shaw if he can regain his form.
Verdict -Keep

Raphael Varane - picked up a few injuries and he’s been disappointing overall but needs a quality CB partner.
Verdict -Keep

Victor Lindelof - back up at best, far too passive v opponents.Gets thrown off the ball too easily but he can be the number 3 CB.
Verdict - Keep

Phil Jones -he just needs to move on at this stage in his career .
Verdict -Sell

Eric Bailly - not good enough and no manager seems to trust him .
Verdict Sell

Axel Tuanzebe -it just hasn’t worked out for him here , needs to be moved on.
Verdict Sell

Harry Maguire- a nightmare season and long term he shouldnt be part of our plans . Can’t defend on a high line so if we can’t sell him CB number 4
Verdict - Sell (won’t happen)

AWB - I can’t see him improving so needs to be moved on . He’s better than Dalot but just totally not good enough to be here if we want to catch City / Liverpool
Verdict - Sell

Diogo Dalot- just not good enough
Verdict - Sell

Ethan Laird - give him a pre season and let ETH make up his mind about him . He’s had a mixed season with Loans.
Alvaro Fernandez - I’m looking forward to seeing him preseason . Might give Shaw a little bit of a wake up call.

So a RB , CB and LB are needed this season if we want to stop the leaky defence .

 

[Cheimoon]

Is it still true though? And how do you define defense? Like, City don't need a lot of hardcore defenders because of the way they play; and there can also be changes elsewhere in the pitch that allow for more dominant performances that put less burden on defenders.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Is it still true though? And how do you define defense? Like, City don't need a lot of hardcore defenders because of the way they play; and there can also be changes elsewhere in the pitch that allow for more dominant performances that put less burden on defenders.

Of course it's true. A leaky defense will cost you matches which will then cost you the league. If you don't concede you're not losing, and just need talented to players in attack to secure the win.

 

[Samid]

Please no. We need to let the ghost of Fergie go.

Football has moved on.

 

[Red00012]

Please no. We need to let the ghost of Fergie go.

Football has moved on.

Football has moved on but conceding more goals than a team that could be relegated is one hell of an embarassing stat

 

[r3idy]

So another thread on who we should sell and keep, wow

 

[Cheimoon]

Of course it's true. A leaky defense will cost you matches which will then cost you the league. If you don't concede you're not losing, and just need talented to players in attack to secure the win.

'Just need talented players in attack'. What do you mean by that? If you get the defense right, it's enough to chuck in a few good players up front, and all's good?

That doesn't score goals anymore in current-day football, so it sounds like a recipe for endless goalless draws.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Is it still true though? And how do you define defense? Like, City don't need a lot of hardcore defenders because of the way they play; and there can also be changes elsewhere in the pitch that allow for more dominant performances that put less burden on defenders.

Do you know how much Pep spent on his defensive line and goakeeper?

 

[King Eric 7]

We need upgrades all over the pitch but I would definitely start with midfield first with DM being the most important signing, then fullbacks and finally a CB upgrade.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Please no. We need to let the ghost of Fergie go.

Football has moved on.

This is not about Sir Alex, this is basics of football. No way Liverpool would be as successful as they currently are had they not signed Van Dijk and Alisson.

Ole tried to do the same with Maguire but he didn't make the impact Van Dijk and Diaz had for Liverpool and City, respectively. You could argue that we haven't got a specialised holding midfielder like they have in Rodri and Fabinho, but of course having a strong defence is crucial.

 

[Cheimoon]

Do you know how much Pep spent on his defensive line and goakeeper?

Absolutely, but they're not hardcore defenders. That's what I was getting at. I think the original quote was about 'shoring up your defense'. That's not really what Guardiola did, I'd argue. His is a different mindset.

Like, if you act on the idea that 'games are won in defense', would you get someone like Alexander-Arnold? Obviously he's of tremendous importance to Liverpool, but he's not really the kind of player that helps them get fewer goals against.

 

[TheRedHearted]

A famous quote by SAF so should this be where ETH should concentrate on in the summer 1st and foremost. Granted we are not going to be league contenders next season but this needs sorting . More goals conceded than Burnley this season is damning

DDG - player of the season but him been the last line of defence doesn’t help the back 4 as he is glued to his goal line most of the time. Has absolutely no control of his penalty area . Far from our biggest problem but he needs replacing soon
Verdict - Keep (Short Term)

Henderson - looks like he won’t stay another season and sit on the bench so will probably move on
Verdict - Sell

Luke Shaw - Has been poor this season and not helped by niggly injuries. We need back to his England form. He’s just Not an option as back up as he more than anyone needs needs match fitness
Verdict - Keep

Alex Telles - Needs to be got rid of . He can’t defend , can’t attack and hits the 1st man for every cross
Verdict -Sell

Brandon Williams - possibly going to be back up for Shaw if he can regain his form.
Verdict -Keep

Raphael Varane - picked up a few injuries and he’s been disappointing overall but needs a quality CB partner.
Verdict -Keep

Victor Lindelof - back up at best, far too passive v opponents.Gets thrown off the ball too easily but he can be the number 3 CB.
Verdict - Keep

Phil Jones -he just needs to move on at this stage in his career .
Verdict -Sell

Eric Bailly - not good enough and no manager seems to trust him .
Verdict Sell

Axel Tuanzebe -it just hasn’t worked out for him here , needs to be moved on.
Verdict Sell

Harry Maguire- a nightmare season and long term he shouldnt be part of our plans . Can’t defend on a high line so if we can’t sell him CB number 4
Verdict - Sell (won’t happen)

AWB - I can’t see him improving so needs to be moved on . He’s better than Dalot but just totally not good enough to be here if we want to catch City / Liverpool
Verdict - Sell

Diogo Dalot- just not good enough
Verdict - Sell

Ethan Laird - give him a pre season and let ETH make up his mind about him . He’s had a mixed season with Loans.
Alvaro Fernandez - I’m looking forward to seeing him preseason . Might give Shaw a little bit of a wake up call.

So a RB , CB and LB are needed this season if we want to stop the leaky defence .

Is it still true though? And how do you define defense? Like, City don't need a lot of hardcore defenders because of the way they play; and there can also be changes elsewhere in the pitch that allow for more dominant performances that put less burden on defenders.

Of course it's true. A leaky defense will cost you matches which will then cost you the league. If you don't concede you're not losing, and just need talented to players in attack to secure the win.

Pretty sure if you draw every game you’ll end up with 38 points. I get what it means though - if you don’t have a strong defense you’ll lose those fine margin games and you won’t be a champion.

really we all know there needs to be a balance.

 

[SalfordRed18]

'Just need talented players in attack'. What do you mean by that? If you get the defense right, it's enough to chuck in a few good players up front, and all's good?

That doesn't score goals anymore in current-day football, so it sounds like a recipe for endless goalless draws.

Talented players don't score goals in modern day football? Cool.

Look at Liverpool before VVD, and look at them after, then come back to me.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Absolutely, but they're not hardcore defenders. That's what I was getting at. I think the original quote was about 'shoring up your defense'. That's not really what Guardiola did, I'd argue. His is a different mindset.

Like, if you act on the idea that 'games are won in defense', would you get someone like Alexander-Arnold? Obviously he's of tremendous importance to Liverpool, but he's not really the kind of player that helps them get fewer goals against.

Pep spent about 350mil on his defence in the space of about 4 years. He spent 150 mil in one transfer window on fullbacks alone.

If that's not shoring up defense I don't know what is.

 

[Corey]

Attack is more important than defence. A good attack can can compensate for a poor defence by outscoring the opposition to get you a win. A good defence can't compensate for a rubbish attack as if you don't score then the best you can get is a draw.

In reality, you obviously need both. Plus a good midfield, which is probably the most important position of all.

 

[Cheimoon]

Talented players don't score goals in modern day football? Cool.

Look at Liverpool before VVD, and look at them after, then come back to me.

Nice hyperbole, but I'm not saying that.

You're suggesting (if I understand you correctly) that you don't need to think too much about attack. Get your organized defense organized and get some talented attackers, and that's it. I'm saying that that's an old-fashioned approach that won't get you goals anymore. You need a much stronger tactical approach to attack that's integrated with your entire style of play all over the pitch.

And to tie it all together: that approach starts in defense. You can't see those separately. Building a strong defense is part of building a strong attack, and vice versa. Liverpool can't defend the way they do if their attackers aren't part of their pressing game; otherwise Van Dijk will have to deal every game with tons of balls going past him and even he won't be able to intercept them all.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Defence, midfield and attack win you titles. If you're missing one of them you don't win. We're missing 3

 

[sullydnl]

I realise it's just the title and not really the topic of the thread but interesting to note that cliché is largely untrue.

From an article written in 2017:

Since 1995/96, the average champions have ranked 1.45 out of 20 teams for their goals scored, compared to an average rank of 2.41 for goals conceded. In total, 14 out of 22 champions have had the strongest attack during the respective season - but only nine have had the best defence

And then in subsequent years:

18/19 - City- 1st for attack, 2nd for defence.
19/20 - Liverpool - 2nd for attack, 1st for defence.
20/21 - City - 1st for attack, 1st for defence.

So overall it skews towards attack being more important in winning you titles, not defence.

In fact Ferguson's United in particular bucked the idea that defence is more important on several occasions:

Manchester United only had the seventh best defence when they won the title in 1996/97, shipping 44 goals - Blackburn conceded fewer and finished in 13th place.
And Fergie continued in the same vein, having only the fourth best defence in 1998/99, the sixth best in 1999/00 and fifth best in 2012/13. In each of those title-winning seasons, United scored more goals than any other team.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Nice hyperbole, but I'm not saying that.

You're suggesting (if I understand you correctly) that you don't need to think too much about attack. Get your organized defense organized and get some talented attackers, and that's it. I'm saying that that's an old-fashioned approach that won't get you goals anymore. You need a much stronger tactical approach to attack that's integrated with your entire style of play all over the pitch.

And to tie it all together: that approach starts in defense. You can't see those separately. Building a strong defense is part of building a strong attack, and vice versa. Liverpool can't defend the way they do if their attackers aren't part of their pressing game; otherwise Van Dijk will have to deal every game with tons of balls going past him and even he won't be able to intercept them all.

It's not a hyperbole, it's whats you said.

Look at all the big five leagues for the last 30 years and tell me how many of those champions won with leaky defences?

You're completely missing the point here, there's obviously more to it then just having talented players in attack, but the league champions are going to have talented players in attack. It kinda goes without saying.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Absolutely, but they're not hardcore defenders. That's what I was getting at. I think the original quote was about 'shoring up your defense'. That's not really what Guardiola did, I'd argue. His is a different mindset.

Like, if you act on the idea that 'games are won in defense', would you get someone like Alexander-Arnold? Obviously he's of tremendous importance to Liverpool, but he's not really the kind of player that helps them get fewer goals against.

What do you define as a ''hardcore defender''?

Also, Liverpool make up for their attacking full backs by having three or at least 2 "hardcore" midfielders. The balance is there and they defend as a unit.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Defence, midfield and attack win you titles. If you're missing one of them you don't win. We're missing 3

United won a title with Anderson and Cleverley in a midfield 2. Explain that.

 

[Red the Bear]

Is it still true though? And how do you define defense? Like, City don't need a lot of hardcore defenders because of the way they play; and there can also be changes elsewhere in the pitch that allow for more dominant performances that put less burden on defenders.

It rings true as ever, look no further than pool, they're complete transformation into a world class team happened when they got van djik and Alisson.

 

[Cheimoon]

It's not a hyperbole, it's whats you said.

Look at all the big five leagues for the last 30 years and tell me how many of those champions won with leaky defences?

You're completely missing the point here, there's obviously more to it then just having talented players in attack, but the league champions are going to have talented players in attack. It kinda goes without saying.

It's not.

Also, league winners are also going to have talented players in defense. That also goes without saying. What's the point of mentioning that?

Anyway, squibbling aside, my point here is that prioritizing one over the other doesn't work. Winning matches now requires a strong tactical framework that covers the entire team and ties together attack and defense. You can obviously focus on one if the other is fine, but if you're having issues all over the pitch (like United are having), then I think it makes less sense to start in one area on its own.

 

[Cheimoon]

What do you define as a ''hardcore defender''?

Also, Liverpool make up for their attacking full backs by having three or at least 2 "hardcore" midfielders. The balance is there and they defend as a unit.

Maybe it's me reading too much into the OP. Liverpool doesn't have anyone that isn't great going forward, and the reference to that quote just struck me as the sort of thinking that leads to the sort of disjointed approach where you look first to have 'a solid defense' - and then find out afterwards that this defense doesn't help you establish the attacking/possession style that you want. (For Ten Hag: very dominant, vertical, high up the pitch, etc.)

 

[padr81]

Its more important to be the top scorers than the top defenders for the most part and has been since the move to 3 points for a win.

 

[Samid]

This is not about Sir Alex, this is basics of football. No way Liverpool would be as successful as they currently are had they not signed Van Dijk and Alisson.

Ole tried to do the same with Maguire but he didn't make the impact Van Dijk and Diaz had for Liverpool and City, respectively. You could argue that we haven't got a specialised holding midfielder like they have in Rodri and Fabinho, but of course having a strong defence is crucial.

VVD and Dias were bought on the back of those two teams scoring for fun. We've got a 37 year old scoring, other than that we can't buy a goal. 54 goals in 35 games is shockingly bad.

Going on a spending spree for defenders when we've got bigger fish to fry would be pure madness. Buy a couple of midfielders able to control a game plus an attacker able to score goals and watch us peg opponents back. Learn to control games and our defence wouldn't look half as bad as it does.

 

[Red the Bear]

Its more important to be the top scorers than the top defenders for the most part and has been since the move to 3 points for a win.

If you have a shitty defense the attackers won't be able to showcase themselves, you always build from the core , from bottom to top.

 

[sullydnl]

Also agree with @Cheimoon in terms of City's defence. Guardiola has openly said that the single most important aspect of their defence is their ability to keep possession. Similarly in terms of underlying statistics our best post-SAF manager from a defence POV was Van Gaal, again as a result of that possession-heavy style.

As it stands there's a 15.2% possession gap between this United side and ETH's Ajax side and it's likely through changing that and having possession as the first-principle method of defence that we'll see the main improvements in defence next season.

Which is important to keep in mind when it comes to any recruitment we do in defensive positions, as ability on the ball then becomes vital as a defensive quality as well as an offensive one. More so then more classic notions of defence like tackles, blocks, aerial ability etc., we need to prioritise the qualities that feed into that possession style.

 

[Samid]

If you have a shitty defense the attackers won't be able to showcase themselves, you always build from the core , from bottom to top.

That's how you build a business, not a winning football team ffs.

 

[Red the Bear]

That's how you build a business, not a winning football team ffs.

What's the difference

 

[frostbite]

We have proved that without midfield you win neither games nor titles.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Our biggest problem post SAF is scoring goals.

We've never scored over 80 league goals since the man retired.

We only scored over 70 just once.

Every single league champion except Chelsea and Leicester since then score over 80+.

Liverpool's defense was awful in 2013-2014, but their incredible attack led them to a title challenge.

Obviously since Pep/Klopp have arrived, you need to score plenty of goals and not concede much.

 

[padr81]

If you have a shitty defense the attackers won't be able to showcase themselves, you always build from the core , from bottom to top.

That always works in reverse if you have a shitty attack the defense can't function. Its a team game. But statistically scoring goals wins the day.

I can't find a single time in the last 20 odd years where the team winning the league has come below 2nd in goals scored with the exception of Leicester.
There are multiple instances of the league winners not being in the top 2 defensively. United 3rd and 5th, Leicester 3rd and Chelsea 3rd.

Leicester aside I can't find the last time the league winner wasn't in the top 2 for scoring anywhere.
Edit: Found it Arsenal in 97/98.

 

[Red00012]

Our biggest problem post SAF is scoring goals.

We've never scored over 80 league goals since the man retired.

We only scored over 70 just once.

Every single league champion except Chelsea and Leicester since then score over 80+.

Liverpool's defense was awful in 2013-2014, but their incredible attack led them to a title challenge.

Obviously since Pep/Klopp have arrived, you need to score plenty of goals and not concede much.

You could point to even how bad our defence is at scoring goals to an extent obviously it’s going to be a low ratio but we must have one of the lowest goals per defender for the past few seasons . AWB / Dalot / Shaw / Lindelof / Varane haven’t scored in the PL this season IIRC

 

[BootsyCollins]

Football has changed.
Getting techincal players to work their ass of in defence while still doing the same things in offence wins you titles.

Also, defence is now not just defencive players, its the whole team.

 

[galwayfa]

Was mourinhos squad after ranarie left Chelsea better or worse than utds now, if its at a parallel a great coach and a few good signings and changes everything, I know the flip side but let's keep the positive vibes that if everything clicks, we may not be to far away,

 

[Red the Bear]

That always works in reverse if you have a shitty attack the defense can't function. Its a team game. But statistically scoring goals wins the day.

I can't find a single time in the last 20 odd years where the team winning the league has come below 2nd in goals scored with the exception of Leicester.
There are multiple instances of the league winners not being in the top 2 defensively. United 3rd and 5th, Leicester 3rd and Chelsea 3rd.

Leicester aside I can't find the last time the league winner wasn't in the top 2 for scoring anywhere.
Edit: Found it Arsenal in 97/98.

Stats aren't everything a good defense doesn't necessarily mean parking the boss and conceding the least amount of goals, obviously statements such as these have a bit of inherent sensationalism in them as every part of your teams needs to be functioning to succeed.
We get into semantics at this point but I believe what Fergie was getting at being the consistency good defensive form brings you ( defensive duties are obviously not limited to defenders only) , for example you might win a one off game by outscoring your opponents but that would be as previously mentioned a one off, not sustainable but a good defensive form ensures you not only to not lose points when your attackers are having an off day but to actively ensure that you get the best out of them.

 

[Lemon Moon]

I'd prefer him to focus on strengthening the squad overall rather than just one area.

 

[diarm]

Please no. We need to let the ghost of Fergie go.

Football has moved on.

Er.... are you suggesting we shouldn't look to improve our defence, because it's something Fergie once said was important?

 

[Rocknrolla69er]

A famous quote by SAF so should this be where ETH should concentrate on in the summer 1st and foremost. Granted we are not going to be league contenders next season but this needs sorting . More goals conceded than Burnley this season is damning

DDG - player of the season but him been the last line of defence doesn’t help the back 4 as he is glued to his goal line most of the time. Has absolutely no control of his penalty area . Far from our biggest problem but he needs replacing soon
Verdict - Keep (Short Term)

Henderson - looks like he won’t stay another season and sit on the bench so will probably move on
Verdict - Sell

Luke Shaw - Has been poor this season and not helped by niggly injuries. We need back to his England form. He’s just Not an option as back up as he more than anyone needs needs match fitness
Verdict - Keep

Alex Telles - Needs to be got rid of . He can’t defend , can’t attack and hits the 1st man for every cross
Verdict -Sell

Brandon Williams - possibly going to be back up for Shaw if he can regain his form.
Verdict -Keep

Raphael Varane - picked up a few injuries and he’s been disappointing overall but needs a quality CB partner.
Verdict -Keep

Victor Lindelof - back up at best, far too passive v opponents.Gets thrown off the ball too easily but he can be the number 3 CB.
Verdict - Keep

Phil Jones -he just needs to move on at this stage in his career .
Verdict -Sell

Eric Bailly - not good enough and no manager seems to trust him .
Verdict Sell

Axel Tuanzebe -it just hasn’t worked out for him here , needs to be moved on.
Verdict Sell

Harry Maguire- a nightmare season and long term he shouldnt be part of our plans . Can’t defend on a high line so if we can’t sell him CB number 4
Verdict - Sell (won’t happen)

AWB - I can’t see him improving so needs to be moved on . He’s better than Dalot but just totally not good enough to be here if we want to catch City / Liverpool
Verdict - Sell

Diogo Dalot- just not good enough
Verdict - Sell

Ethan Laird - give him a pre season and let ETH make up his mind about him . He’s had a mixed season with Loans.
Alvaro Fernandez - I’m looking forward to seeing him preseason . Might give Shaw a little bit of a wake up call.

So a RB , CB and LB are needed this season if we want to stop the leaky defence .

You defend as a team, starting from the front, if teams are walking through our midfield and wide areas the defence are screwed.

Lost count the number of games I've watched wingers and midfielders lazily track back, not go with runners, not scan around them. We need mobile tenacious central midfielders with physicality. Not Mctominay and Fred, or Matic who all have glaring weaknesses.

Awb, Shaw, Telles and Dalot have major flaws in defending and concentration as does lindelof.

I'd say tighten the central areas of midfield then strengthen the defence.