1 win in 19 against non-relegated teams.

I mean, I'm not sure why anyone would have thought last season would be rock bottom. All of our measurable performance metrics suggested we shouldn't even be in the top half of the table, and most of our players were being badly managed, and then we didn't really change anything at all over the summer. The only thing to base the idea we wouldn't be worse on was, well, baseless optimism.

Since then we've sacked a manager mid season and brought in a new one with completely different ideals to manage a fractured mess of a squad, at the same time as our owner was going on an extremely public negativity/de-motivation rampage...and now that's finally settled down we have f*ck all to play for outside of the Europa League and nowhere near a strong enough squad to prioritise both that and the league.

None of it has really been a surprise and though I think there's some fair criticisms to throw at Amorim since he's joined, not much of it is actually anything to do with him, or anything he has had any control over..

The metrics were awful last season, results massively flattered Ten Hag but I think most of us hoped that not playing an insane midfield set up that had no chance of succeeding and routinely allowed 25+ shots against per game by even Championship level teams would stabilize us. It can't be overstated just how inept the set up was last year, it was incredible, seen nothing like it from a professional club in 40 years of watching football, made Bielsa look conservative.

Amorin getting worse results than that approach is to put it mildly worrying.
 
Amorim better crack the code next season. His EL performances are saving his hide but we cannot have another season finishing below the top 10, even with our financial difficulties.
 
It's been an embarrassment in the league. Amorim has underperformed and I fear for next season. I think we win the Europa though
 
Annoyingly for us, our last bunch of league fixtures have involved playing teams who have an incentive to winning as opposed to us treating the match like a dead rubber, whether it be chasing European places or relegation safety in the case of Wolves,

West Ham at home will be our only true dead rubber league game, as our last two matches are Chelsea and Villa.
 
The metrics were awful last season, results massively flattered Ten Hag but I think most of us hoped that not playing an insane midfield set up that had no chance of succeeding and routinely allowed 25+ shots against per game by even Championship level teams would stabilize us. It can't be overstated just how inept the set up was last year, it was incredible, seen nothing like it from a professional club in 40 years of watching football, made Bielsa look conservative.

Amorin getting worse results than that approach is to put it mildly worrying.

I don't disagree with the first part.

The second part I think is massively disregarding the mess we were in once Amorim came in, and then having to deal with Radcliffe making things worse at the same time. He was actually trying to sell Garnacho when we had 0 other attacking players left to pick in his place.

What manager could get enough goals out of the set of players Amorim has been given to do all that much better? Considering there's not that much hope of keeping clean sheets with what there is to work with either.

If Amad didn't get injured I think we'd have done slightly better, but only slightly....and I lso think since relegation stopped being a possibility we've pretty much binned off the league. Otherwise imo we'd probably have crawled up to around 13th, which is still shite but also around where we SHOULD have finished last year.
 
I don't disagree with the first part.

The second part I think is massively disregarding the mess we were in once Amorim came in, and then having to deal with Radcliffe making things worse at the same time. He was actually trying to sell Garnacho when we had 0 other attacking players left to pick in his place.

What manager could get enough goals out of the set of players Amorim has been given to do all that much better? Considering there's not that much hope of keeping clean sheets with what there is to work with either.

If Amad didn't get injured I think we'd have done slightly better, but only slightly....and I lso think since relegation stopped being a possibility we've pretty much binned off the league. Otherwise imo we'd probably have crawled up to around 13th, which is still shite but also around where we SHOULD have finished last year.
Amorim gets far too much grace based on the "mess' he inherited.

His system has a massive amount to do with why we are so bad. No different to Ten Hag's mad system in his final season.

The squad he inherited playing a a double pivot 4231 like Ruud played is comfortably challenging for European places.
 
If we lose the Europa, Amorim should be relieved of his duties. I expected us to be bad but not this bad. I go into every game expecting us to lose/nick a draw.
I do actually think that he needs that Europa win to save his job. I have been trying to hold off with that thought. There will be no European football without it and we are desperate for the CL money. Otherwise it is selling the family jewels to fund transfers and then hope they actually lift us to another level. Apart from the EL campaign it has been a bit of a mess. Although somethings have actually improved, not conceding chances and creating more. It does not help if you have a goalkeeper who at times seems determined to let in every chance we do concede and not having a striker to take the chances we do create. The Glazers and Woodward and his cronies have descimated the club financially.
 
We bring in manager half way through season who plays completely different formation. This squad of players have pretty much refused to play any type of coached football for years. He gets rid of players who don’t want to be here or aren’t good enough and we bring in just Dorgu. We have no forwards….Have no goal scorer but we are starting to see coached team. The press is night and day from one player running and team losing shape, and Bruno has been sensational since team shape improve.

Anyone knee jerking after league game currently with half team of kids doesn’t deserve us to win Europa. Good thing is you won’t enjoy if we do.

It’s not like Amorim didn’t see this coming and ask to come at end of season. But he’s about to get us to Europa league final.
It’s not knee jerking when it’s been all season is it. Equally those no bothered can keep their heads in the sand.

If you can’t see an issue with our league performances then your standards have dropped to a new low.
 
It's poor but really not all that surprising when you consider:
1. How bad the quality of the sides we've been putting out are - particularly in attack
2. The mitigating factors around many of the games in relation to the Europa League

Wolves is the only recent game in the PL we went into as (very slight) favourites and despite playing youth players we should have won that comfortably with how the game went.

We simply aren't better even on paper than the vast majority of those 16 sides.
 
Yeah that is a bit shocking.

Recruitment is important but he's got a handful of games next year to prove himself, trophy or not.
 
The feeling is not exclusive to you. I have heard it used from a section of fans for every new manager that joins this club.

Not just good, any half decent team. As you mention in the OP, we have only one game against the team staying in the PL this season. It's shocking really.

Its appalling. Its so bad i think we've lost sight of how bad it is.
 
I want to hope and be positive but the more likely scenario is this: We won’t win the EL (Spurs outsmart us in the final), then spend 150+ on non working signings in the summer. Then have the league bottled by Nov and change the coach.
 
Its appalling. Its so bad i think we've lost sight of how bad it is.

They've lost sight because they've convinced themselves that it's because we're saving ourselves for the Europa League. Sections of our fan base exist in a bubble in which losing nearly every week is completely normal, despite other clubs being able to simultaneously pickup points and prepare for finals.
 
It's poor but really not all that surprising when you consider:
1. How bad the quality of the sides we've been putting out are - particularly in attack
2. The mitigating factors around many of the games in relation to the Europa League

Wolves is the only recent game in the PL we went into as (very slight) favourites and despite playing youth players we should have won that comfortably with how the game went.

We simply aren't better even on paper than the vast majority of those 16 sides.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. His tactics have a huge part to play. For example, the squad he inherited could have put out the following line up:

----------------onana---------------
Dalot-de ligt-maguire-maz
--------ugarte-casemiro------
----amad-bruno-rashford---
----------------zirkzee--------------


Even accounting for the main injuries he could rotate garnacho and yoro in.

Two of the 3 behind zirkzee proven PL goal getters. Solid, balanced midfield. Massively experienced back 4 with no square pegs in round holes trying to learn new roles they aren't suited to.

Everyone seems to forget that Ten Hag DID NOT play this system for his last 18 months. When he did, we had a great season with a squad not massively stronger.

For me, we have been terrible because of two managers trying to prove their genius playing systems that are either just outright crap, or that they don't have the players for.
 
Amorim gets far too much grace based on the "mess' he inherited.

His system has a massive amount to do with why we are so bad. No different to Ten Hag's mad system in his final season.

The squad he inherited playing a a double pivot 4231 like Ruud played is comfortably challenging for European places.
That is not his system though. He has made it clear from the start that he will implement his system right away because in theory it will mean we are better off next season. If the plan was 4231 pivot we were better off sticking with Ruud.
 
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. His tactics have a huge part to play. For example, the squad he inherited could have put out the following line up:

----------------onana---------------
Dalot-de ligt-maguire-maz
--------ugarte-casemiro------
----amad-bruno-rashford---
----------------zirkzee--------------


Even accounting for the main injuries he could rotate garnacho and yoro in.

Two of the 3 behind zirkzee proven PL goal getters. Solid, balanced midfield. Massively experienced back 4 with no square pegs in round holes trying to learn new roles they aren't suited to.

Everyone seems to forget that Ten Hag DID NOT play this system for his last 18 months. When he did, we had a great season with a squad not massively stronger.

For me, we have been terrible because of two managers trying to prove their genius playing systems that are either just outright crap, or that they don't have the players for.
3 of those forwards have barely been around for this period. Casemiro has only started to look useful in the last few weeks, mainly in the Europa. Ugarte is average. De Ligt has been injured. Onana is Onana.

Now do a team with players we've actually had available, factor in playing on a Thursday night against fresh teams at the weekend, add in that we've had to not risk our better players in some of those games. The results are really not that surprising.
 
I'll start by saying that, up until the end of February, I had pretty strong doubts about Amorim. We were just utterly shite for essentially the entirety of the period from when he took over up until that point. There were precious few performances to take any encouragement from.

These past few months, though, I think the performances have honestly been quite considerably better and we've just not been getting the results to match them. I see a lot of people making blanket "we've deserved to lose all these games" and "every team in the league outplays us" statements which, frankly, I think are a load of BS. To support that, I'm going to break down every match we've had from the beginning of March until now in the league (because our Europa League performances have been fine and this isn't particularly contested I don't think). I'll include the results and the xG as per Understat, with a brief summary of how the match went:

9th March: Manchester United 1-1 Arsenal (xg: 1.31-1.83)

Strong start here because I confess, I didn't get to see this match. With that said, just looking at the chances created it seems a draw was probably about fair. Nothing spectacular about a draw at home to Arsenal but, given that they're a much better side than us, it's hardly catastrophic either.

16th March: Leicester City 0-3 Manchester United (xg: 1.30-1.14)

Interestingly, perhaps our best result throughout this run is also one of the ones where the xG doesn't look so great. To be fair, much of Leicester's xG came near the end of the match where we were two or three goals up. Not sure there's too much to be said in favour of Amorim for this one either since Leicester are shite and beating them isn't a major achievement. Meh.

1st April: Nottingham Forest 1-0 Manchester United (xg: 0.51-1.87)

This is one of the matches where I really think we were unlucky. Forest scored very early thanks to an exceptional goal from Elanga, and then sat off for a large portion of the match, so it's only fair to point out how this would contribute to us creating more than they did. With that said, we easily created enough that we should've scored one or two in this game. This is definitely a match where, with more clinical forwards, I think we'd have drawn at the very least and probably even should've won.

6th April: Manchester United 0-0 Manchester City (xg: 1.23-0.69)

A very dull match and I don't think either side can really complain about the draw. With that said, I think we certainly had the better of the play and created the better chances to win the match. Again, with a more clinical forward line I think we could easily have converted this into a win.

13th April: Newcastle United 4-1 Manchester United (xg: 2.64-0.79)

No arguments here. We were shite and got deservedly spanked.

20th April: Manchester United 0-1 Wolverhampton Wanderers (xg: 1.14-0.19)

Again, we had the better of the play for most of this match. I think it's fair to argue we should've created more but Mount and Fernandes both missed chances that a clinical forward player might have converted. Wolves, meanwhile, created practically nothing of note and scored from a brilliantly taken free-kick. I truly don't see how anyone could argue that we deserved to lose this one.

27th April: Bournemouth 1-1 Manchester United (xg: 0.61-1.91)

OK, I'll pre-empt what people will say here: yes, I am aware that we created a good number of chances after they went down to ten men. With that said, I'd argue Bournemouth were lucky that they weren't a man down quite considerably earlier and they then proceeded to score directly after that. Another game where, on the balance of play and chances created, we should have won and didn't because our forward line isn't clinical enough.

4th May: Brentford 4-3 Manchester United (xg: 3.59-1.13)

The only other game in this list which I think we clearly deserved to lose but for this one we fielded maybe four players from our strongest side because we've got a much, much more important game coming up. With that in mind, I think it's a bit daft to jump to conclusions off the back of it. There were three teenagers who'd barely played any senior football, and four or five bench players, a number of whom were coming back from injuries. It's so far removed from our strongest side that I'd expect us to struggle against any decent Premier League side.
 
Remember when everyone was saying they don’t care as much about results aslong as the performances and style is on show? Well that’s gone out the window hasn’t it, our performances as improved and we’re seeing more of a style. We’re still conceding from silly mistakes. Better players remove them mistakes
 
They've lost sight because they've convinced themselves that it's because we're saving ourselves for the Europa League. Sections of our fan base exist in a bubble in which losing nearly every week is completely normal, despite other clubs being able to simultaneously pickup points and prepare for finals.

I could even buy that at this point - but we simply aren't seeing any evidence on the pitch in PL that we're actually improving. We can not beat a team above us - its awful. Nobody in the league apart from relegated sides is so predictably unable to beat a team above them in the table.

We have good players and 3 or 4 new starters can change alot but we should be way way further along. What happens if our new striker gets injured for 3 months? We just accept that we won't win a match or compete against any decent side? Its mental
 
Remember when everyone was saying they don’t care as much about results aslong as the performances and style is on show? Well that’s gone out the window hasn’t it, our performances as improved and we’re seeing more of a style. We’re still conceding from silly mistakes. Better players remove them mistakes

Do you really think we look better? We look better than us at the very worst moments under other managers (ie as their spells neared an end) but I can't see our style. I really don't see any patterns or coherent shape in attack or defence.
 
Remember when everyone was saying they don’t care as much about results aslong as the performances and style is on show? Well that’s gone out the window hasn’t it, our performances as improved and we’re seeing more of a style. We’re still conceding from silly mistakes. Better players remove them mistakes
My brother as someone who would kill for good performances even with bad results, we have seen neither in the league. We've been so bad the only positives are press conferences, we are bloody dominating those, and the fact we should have a good crack at the Europa.

Re style, it's easy to see we play with 3 at the back but what else do you see that is so unique or different? 8th was underachieving with an arguably worse squad and a coach everyone agreed was not good enough, we are 15th and averaging a point a game!
 
I'll start by saying that, up until the end of February, I had pretty strong doubts about Amorim. We were just utterly shite for essentially the entirety of the period from when he took over up until that point. There were precious few performances to take any encouragement from.

These past few months, though, I think the performances have honestly been quite considerably better and we've just not been getting the results to match them. I see a lot of people making blanket "we've deserved to lose all these games" and "every team in the league outplays us" statements which, frankly, I think are a load of BS. To support that, I'm going to break down every match we've had from the beginning of March until now in the league (because our Europa League performances have been fine and this isn't particularly contested I don't think). I'll include the results and the xG as per Understat, with a brief summary of how the match went:

9th March: Manchester United 1-1 Arsenal (xg: 1.31-1.83)

Strong start here because I confess, I didn't get to see this match. With that said, just looking at the chances created it seems a draw was probably about fair. Nothing spectacular about a draw at home to Arsenal but, given that they're a much better side than us, it's hardly catastrophic either.

16th March: Leicester City 0-3 Manchester United (xg: 1.30-1.14)

Interestingly, perhaps our best result throughout this run is also one of the ones where the xG doesn't look so great. To be fair, much of Leicester's xG came near the end of the match where we were two or three goals up. Not sure there's too much to be said in favour of Amorim for this one either since Leicester are shite and beating them isn't a major achievement. Meh.

1st April: Nottingham Forest 1-0 Manchester United (xg: 0.51-1.87)

This is one of the matches where I really think we were unlucky. Forest scored very early thanks to an exceptional goal from Elanga, and then sat off for a large portion of the match, so it's only fair to point out how this would contribute to us creating more than they did. With that said, we easily created enough that we should've scored one or two in this game. This is definitely a match where, with more clinical forwards, I think we'd have drawn at the very least and probably even should've won.

6th April: Manchester United 0-0 Manchester City (xg: 1.23-0.69)

A very dull match and I don't think either side can really complain about the draw. With that said, I think we certainly had the better of the play and created the better chances to win the match. Again, with a more clinical forward line I think we could easily have converted this into a win.

13th April: Newcastle United 4-1 Manchester United (xg: 2.64-0.79)

No arguments here. We were shite and got deservedly spanked.

20th April: Manchester United 0-1 Wolverhampton Wanderers (xg: 1.14-0.19)

Again, we had the better of the play for most of this match. I think it's fair to argue we should've created more but Mount and Fernandes both missed chances that a clinical forward player might have converted. Wolves, meanwhile, created practically nothing of note and scored from a brilliantly taken free-kick. I truly don't see how anyone could argue that we deserved to lose this one.

27th April: Bournemouth 1-1 Manchester United (xg: 0.61-1.91)

OK, I'll pre-empt what people will say here: yes, I am aware that we created a good number of chances after they went down to ten men. With that said, I'd argue Bournemouth were lucky that they weren't a man down quite considerably earlier and they then proceeded to score directly after that. Another game where, on the balance of play and chances created, we should have won and didn't because our forward line isn't clinical enough.

4th May: Brentford 4-3 Manchester United (xg: 3.59-1.13)

The only other game in this list which I think we clearly deserved to lose but for this one we fielded maybe four players from our strongest side because we've got a much, much more important game coming up. With that in mind, I think it's a bit daft to jump to conclusions off the back of it. There were three teenagers who'd barely played any senior football, and four or five bench players, a number of whom were coming back from injuries. It's so far removed from our strongest side that I'd expect us to struggle against any decent Premier League side.
Excellent work
 
I have to laugh that we haven’t got to 40 points yet :lol: That’s generally the mark where survival is generaly guaranteed. 3 games left and we still need a point to achieve it!
 
It’s not knee jerking when it’s been all season is it. Equally those no bothered can keep their heads in the sand.

If you can’t see an issue with our league performances then your standards have dropped to a new low.
Those standards dropped years ago due to terrible ownership model. This season have to ignore literal all context to bleat about yesterday or Newcastle. Anyone expecting difference has head buried in sand from about 2012.

It’s ignorant when even new manager saw huge issue with coming in to the current set of player halfway through and asked to wait to summer. It’s got better. It’s getting better but the league is finished. Stop whining and let’s see if we can win Europa league.
 
It is no coincidence we are where we are in the league. We have been one of the worst sides in the Premier League this season without a doubt. There has been a handful of good performances in the league at best. A lot of our players are not up to scratch and lack the intensity, confidence, and/or technical ability to play here. Big summer needed.
 
Been telling this. He isn't good enough and its fine to admit and change it but INEOS wont.

You can bring this transfer /preseason / player quality/injury reasons all you want. The fact is league table doesnt lie.

Anyone who thinks we dont have the squad to finish higher than 15 is either lying or just don't understand how the game works.
 
They've lost sight because they've convinced themselves that it's because we're saving ourselves for the Europa League. Sections of our fan base exist in a bubble in which losing nearly every week is completely normal, despite other clubs being able to simultaneously pickup points and prepare for finals.
Which clubs are preparing for finals and picking up points? Spurs have struggled in the league just as much as we have. They're actually behind us. Arsenal have 14 points in their last 10 league games, they've struggled since the knock out stages of the Champions League.

And neither of them hired a new manager half way through the season too.
 
It’s astonishing that so many are dismissive or frankly don’t care about our league form and have instead defended the manager who is clearly over his head and has been brutally exposed. We’ve been beaten into submission and have accepted mediocrity. It’s like the backers are Theon Greyjoy and Amorim, Ramsay Snow, everything reeks. Common sense arguments of a manager improving the players have been abandoned and instead we are being duped into supporting “a system”, which doesn’t connect with our youth teams and academy. Ashworth had a valid point but took the fall for backing ten Hag.
 
He's only signed one (youngster with potential) player. He has no way of imposing his way of playing on the squad.

Let him get to the summer window and assess why there's a gulf in physical difference/determination between the rest of the PL and his squad.

Certainly a goal scorer is needed. Someone in the centre of the park, dictating play and marshalling the team would be the way forward. We do have a problem, in that other PL teams seem to want 'it' more than us. We require more steel to cope with the PL.
 
Remember when everyone was saying they don’t care as much about results aslong as the performances and style is on show? Well that’s gone out the window hasn’t it, our performances as improved and we’re seeing more of a style. We’re still conceding from silly mistakes. Better players remove them mistakes
What performances are we talking about because i just dont see it . Yes, we have improved but thats a very generic statement. how many chances do we create every game? How many times do we actually test the opposition GK ?
 
Which clubs are preparing for finals and picking up points? Spurs have struggled in the league just as much as we have. They're actually behind us. Arsenal have 14 points in their last 10 league games, they've struggled since the knock out stages of the Champions League.

And neither of them hired a new manager half way through the season too.
All of this would be fine if we looked competitive under Amorim at any given period in the league. The final is just another excuse. First it was lack of training sessions, then injuries, bad luck, Hojlund and now the final
 
My brother as someone who would kill for good performances even with bad results, we have seen neither in the league. We've been so bad the only positives are press conferences, we are bloody dominating those, and the fact we should have a good crack at the Europa.

Re style, it's easy to see we play with 3 at the back but what else do you see that is so unique or different? 8th was underachieving with an arguably worse squad and a coach everyone agreed was not good enough, we are 15th and averaging a point a game!
This system relies heavily on cut backs. The goal we scored against Brentford was what we should be doing more of. Amorims sporting relied on wingbacks for creativity and they had more of there assists. We don’t have wingbacks for that yet.
 
No issues with Amorim on this by the way, it's clear he has discussed prioritising the Europa League with the hierarchy, he has publicly said they are going to rest players in the league and he's right.
 
This system relies heavily on cut backs. The goal we scored against Brentford was what we should be doing more of. Amorims sporting relied on wingbacks for creativity and they had more of there assists. We don’t have wingbacks for that yet.
Cut backs aren't excusive to 343 though? That's just about graft from your full backs/wing backs - the best teams all score plenty of them and most play some variation of 433.
 
What performances are we talking about because i just dont see it . Yes, we have improved but thats a very generic statement. how many chances do we create every game? How many times do we actually test the opposition GK ?
We dominated Bournemouth on possession and chances created and that was before they even went down to 10 men. We dominated the first half. The better the players the more we’ll win games and be more clinical. These players just aren’t clinical… how many times have we seen Garnacho spoon it over the bar from close range?
 
We dominated Bournemouth on possession and chances created and that was before they even went down to 10 men. We dominated the first half. The better the players the more we’ll win games and be more clinical. These players just aren’t clinical… how many times have we seen Garnacho spoon it over the bar from close range?
We were tied on xG before the red card.