*14* games without a clean sheet at Old Trafford

altodevil

Odds winner of 'Odds or Evens 2023/2024'
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In all competitions.

Our last clean sheet was the 2-0 win over Granada in last seasons Europa League - April.

Main causes? Will this be magically remedied with Ole out?

Some of the teams we've faced in this period: Burnley, Fulham, Leeds, Newcastle, Aston Villa
 
Yes a manager like Conte would fix this. It's the result of poor defensive organisation and team shape.
 
altodevil said:
In all competitions.

Our last clean sheet was the 2-0 win over Granada in last seasons Europa League - April.

Main causes? Will this be magically remedied with Ole out?

Some of the teams we've faced in this period: Burnley, Fulham, Leeds, Newcastle, Aston Villa
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Main cause is awful, clueless coaching, tactics, and pressing. It will not be "magically" fixed, but with the right manager I believe we might see a fast transformation like the one at Chelsea when Lampard was replaced by Tuchel. They went from being one of the worst to one of the best defenses in the league almost overnight, and we absolutely have the players to be among the best.
 
One of the good things, maybe one of the very few, of having Ole and this coaching staff is that we are so undercoached that the squad is practically a clean canvas.

Any manager coming will be able to implement his tactic rather quick since he won't need to dismantle anything. I do think this awful defensive record can and will be solved really quick under a new manager.
 
altodevil said:
In all competitions.

Our last clean sheet was the 2-0 win over Granada in last seasons Europa League - April.

Main causes? Will this be magically remedied with Ole out?

Some of the teams we've faced in this period: Burnley, Fulham, Leeds, Newcastle, Aston Villa
Click to expand...

Just look at Chelsea with Lampard vs with Tuchel to see how quickly a good coach can change things defensively. It's crazy how little difference people seem to think a coach can make to a team.
 
Ole, coaching, carrick, McKenna... etc etc etc

One thing is for certain, the players on the pitch have absolutely no responsibility to organize themselves defensively on the pitch. None whatsoever.
 
Apparently Ronaldo is the main cause of it. Like it has been discussed to to end in his performances thread :lol:
 
altodevil said:
In all competitions.

Our last clean sheet was the 2-0 win over Granada in last seasons Europa League - April.

Main causes? Will this be magically remedied with Ole out?

Some of the teams we've faced in this period: Burnley, Fulham, Leeds, Newcastle, Aston Villa
Click to expand...
Nope, magic does not exist. Good coaching however, is going to fix it.
 
Terrible wide open setup that we play where we try to fit every attacking player in the squad at the expense of team balance, coupled with a feeble attempt at playing a pressing game, and two out of our back four being completely out of form (Shaw and Maguire).

New manager will help or even Ole can tweak the setup but has to be brave and drop some big names in attack to find a more balanced setup, plus drop underperforming defenders till they find form again.
 
Don't worry Ole will find a solution within 3 games, I have complete faith in him and our coaching staff.
 
Apokalips said:
Just look at Chelsea with Lampard vs with Tuchel to see how quickly a good coach can change things defensively. It's crazy how little difference people seem to think a coach can make to a team.
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Tuchel basically sorted it out in a single coaching session. They didn't beat Wolves (game finished 0-0), but they looked far more defensively secure than they had done in the previous games under Lampard. They also broke the Premier League record for possession and passes completed in a manager's first game.

That's what a good coach can do - it does not take years and years.
 
Defensively we have steadily just got worse and worse to be honest, it's not wonder we're leaking goals.

19/20: conceded 36 in the PL. xA 1.3 overall
20/21: conceded 44 in the PL. xA 1.34 overall
21/22: conceded 15 in the PL. xA 1.68 so far

This is with a double pivot and playing predominantly counter attack for most of his tenure.
 


If you try to say it ain't down to coaching then you are simply wrong.

Unless you think we have the worst defence in the league which we do not.
 
Sir Alex was never an incredible defensive coach either, he has admitted that himself. This is absolutely the fault of the collective coaching team. Our defence coaching staff needs to dramatically improve, and in all likelihood the players need a better shield in the midfield on top of that.
 
I watched a 5 minute youtube video today about gegenpressing. It was one of those vidoes with animations that look like someone is drawing it in real-time. Even with just squares and arrows I could recognise the styles of pressing Klopp uses, compared to Guardiola for example. I also could see how United under Ole have never once even got close to what was described there.

It seems that Klopp and his coaches look at data for which is the worst opposition players for giving the ball away under pressure and so the press actually works by closing off all passing options except the player who is bad in possession. Then when he gets the ball, 2 players hound him and the rest cut off any easy passing options he might have.

It's really not rocket science and I cannot understand how our coaching staff are unable to do this - I can only conclude they are just unwilling as they think their way is better.
 
Oranges038 said:
Ole, coaching, carrick, McKenna... etc etc etc

One thing is for certain, the players on the pitch have absolutely no responsibility to organize themselves defensively on the pitch. None whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Correct. That's not what we actually pay them to do. That's what we pay Ole and cronies instead for.
 
GaryLifo said:
It seems that Klopp and his coaches look at data for which is the worst opposition players for giving the ball away under pressure and so the press actually works by closing off all passing options except the player who is bad in possession. Then when he gets the ball, 2 players hound him and the rest cut off any easy passing options he might have.
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Saw this in action at the weekend for the fifth goal, which came from Firminho and Henderson doubling up on Pogba and robbing the ball off him - Henderson passes to Salah - goal.
 
It’s 100% coaching. We don’t control games, nobody looks like they know what they’re doing half the time. Because they don’t. It’s clear even to the average armchair fan. I can only assume Ole and the staff have no idea how to fix it, otherwise they’d have done so by now.
 
To be fair, the players do have the responsibility to carry out the chosen tactics. However, the manager is responsible for deciding if they are capable of doing that. In this regard, it does still end up as the coaching staff's responsibility overall. But to say the players have no responsibility whatsoever is a bit of a stretch. It's like saying that the manager is responsible for a bad pass, a bad shot, a bad tackle. The player does have to take SOME of the blame on occasion, but only if they are not doing what they are told to do or making poor decisions. In these cases, the blame is shared between player and staff, generally.
 
Infra-red said:
Saw this in action at the weekend for the fifth goal, which came from Firminho and Henderson doubling up on Pogba and robbing the ball off him - Henderson passes to Salah - goal.
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exactly. They probably planned this assuming he would start the game. So when he came on they were rubbing their hands together.
FattyFooty said:
Ronaldo dont press.
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You don't need everyone to do it anyway. Liverpool's front 3 don't all go and press all at the same time. One of them usually gets into position to receive it if the press works and they win possession back. If all 3 were around the ball then there's no width.
 
Skills said:
Correct. That's not what we actually pay them to do. That's what we pay Ole and cronies instead for.
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That is nonsense. They are paid to play football and win football matches, part of that is keeping the ball out the net. Yes, Ole and the coaches tell them how he wants to defend and play. That's fine, everyone understands that.

They have to be able to control the defensive side of the game on the pitch, part of that is making sure people are in the right positions, that the defensive shape is good, that people are doing their jobs.

Poor positioning, poor shape, poor decision making, lack of effort tracking back and stupid mistakes are just accepted amongst the players on the pitch, all you have to do is look at their reaction when they concede, they don't even look at each other. Heads down, turn around and walk away.

The issues with the defence start with De Gea and work out through the rest of the team.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Defensively we have steadily just got worse and worse to be honest, it's not wonder we're leaking goals.

19/20: conceded 36 in the PL. xA 1.3 overall
20/21: conceded 44 in the PL. xA 1.34 overall
21/22: conceded 15 in the PL. xA 1.68 so far

This is with a double pivot and playing predominantly counter attack for most of his tenure.
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Pretty sure in Jose's 2 full seasons we conceded less than 30 each time so there has definitely been a decline, though the cross-over season between them probably bumps it up a little.
 
Pretty much sums it up.

You can't keep getting lucky in matches. Last season we managed to turn 1-0's into 2-1's. This year it isn't happening.

We covered the leaks far too long, now it's burst.
 
Oranges038 said:
The issues with the defence start with De Gea and work out through the rest of the team.
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I often wonder what it would be like if a VDS of old were put in amongst our defence. He organised and unlike De Gea tended to actually catch the ball. I often see DDG do his awesome double saves and thinking "yeah but imagine if you actually stopped the ball instead of batting it back out to the opposition". I know you can't do this every time but VDS managed to do it a lot more than DDG does.

Before people get too angry, I'm not saying DDG should be dropped, I still think he's a starter and excellent at what he does. I just genuinely wonder how much of a difference a VDS style of keeper who mitigates damage rather than just relying on insane reflexes would do for our team.
 
Loony BoB said:
I often wonder what it would be like if a VDS of old were put in amongst our defence. He organised and unlike De Gea tended to actually catch the ball. I often see DDG do his awesome double saves and thinking "yeah but imagine if you actually stopped the ball instead of batting it back out to the opposition". I know you can't do this every time but VDS managed to do it a lot more than DDG does.

Before people get too angry, I'm not saying DDG should be dropped, I still think he's a starter and excellent at what he does. I just genuinely wonder how much of a difference a VDS style of keeper who mitigates damage rather than just relying on insane reflexes would do for our team.
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Honestly, I think he has some sort of hero complex when it comes to making saves. Like a fireman who start fires just so he can be called to put them out again.

Anyone who thinks he's not part of the problem, just look at why Spain have replaced him with Simon.
 
Big yikes. To think that people don't want Antonio Conte when he would pretty much instantly fix this issue ...
 
Ixion said:
Pretty sure in Jose's 2 full seasons we conceded less than 30 each time so there has definitely been a decline, though the cross-over season between them probably bumps it up a little.
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16/17 = 29 GA
17/18 = 28 GA
18/19 = 29 GA - Game week 17.
 
Obviously the coaching in terms of shape, distances, when to press & when not too isn’t quite right but poor coaching doesn’t explain why our players are always second to the ball, consistently lose 1v1 battles & frankly just amble around the pitch the majority of the time.

Have they not got a bit of pride? When they watch teams like Liverpool or old clips of the likes of Roy Keane running themselves into the ground to win a football match they must at least feel some sort of embarrassment?

We have a squad full of players who are great at the pretty side of the game but the majority of them don’t really have the spirit to do any of the dog work. I’ve thought this for quite some time & believed Ole was slowly changing the mindset of the changing room but no, still we are a team full of mummy’s boys.
 
bosnian_red said:
Big yikes. To think that people don't want Antonio Conte when he would pretty much instantly fix this issue ...
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The problem here is that while fixing that issue, it will put us back to boring Jose days. We'd likely see notably fewer goals conceded, but also notably fewer goals scored. Personally if I had to pick, I'd prefer a high scoring, high conceding game over a 0-0. It's the reason I opted to support United instead of other teams like Liverpool who at the time of me getting into football were very boring to watch.

But if you look at our coaching team, who is the defensive coach? What pedigree do they have? I think our attack is fine, what we need to solve is the defence. Buy a real defence coach, one with proven pedigree, to control our defensive actions and structure. This is something we need more than a change of manager, in my opinion. We should still be an attacking side like we are at the moment when we have the ball, but we need a rapid change of action in how we manage our defence.
 
Infra-red said:
Tuchel basically sorted it out in a single coaching session. They didn't beat Wolves (game finished 0-0), but they looked far more defensively secure than they had done in the previous games under Lampard. They also broke the Premier League record for possession and passes completed in a manager's first game.

That's what a good coach can do - it does not take years and years.
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Exactly, a good coach also doesn't need to do a big clear out and take 3 transfer windows to mould a team into his image and start competing at the top!
 
This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion as people keep telling me he's our best player, but I always feel safer with Henderson in goal. I'm pretty sure his clean sheet average is better than de Gea's in the premier League, even if you include his stint at Sheffield United, without looking it up.
 
Let’s replace Ronaldo and Greenwood with Cavani and Sancho.
 
Stunning that. Sackable offence alone even if we were playing well. The whole approach to defending in particular from set pieces needs gutting and starting again. Conte would be good for that.
 
LoneStar said:
Apparently Ronaldo is the main cause of it. Like it has been discussed to to end in his performances thread :lol:
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I mean you bought a top rated defender in Ronaldo playing in the front defensive line and yet so many opponent players can get passed him :P :lol:
 
SuperiorXI said:
That is fecking shocking and there's nothing anyone can say to justify it
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Nope, indefensible that. If we had any senior football people at the club who weren’t there as jobs for the boys, it would be unacceptable and the people in charge of the team side of things would be thanked but asked to depart.
 
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