2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

[Revan]

The only one taking the moral high ground here is you by insulting and making fun of people. Which is fine and all for you personally on Redcafe but when the Dems have been doing it for the last 20 years (starting with Nader in 2000) they really don't get how they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

And also still can't grasp how their adherence to the 1-dimensional political line metaphor harms their thinking more than their realize.


Absolutely. Bernie has been the best thing to happen to the Democrats in 40 years. Hopefully the corporate establishment doesn't kill the momentum.

I am not taking any moral high-ground, I am just saying that voting for imbeciles (who obviously have no chance of winning in the first place) is not a solution, and I am not sure if it is even a protest vote. Better to write in 'Bernie' (cause that is really a protest against Democrat party who made the primaries as unfair as possible to him).

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I am not taking any moral high-ground, I am just saying that voting for imbeciles (who obviously have no chance of winning in the first place) is not a solution, and I am not sure if it is even a protest vote. Better to write in 'Bernie' (cause that is really a protest against Democrat party who made the primaries as unfair as possible to him).

K, that's your opinion. It's others opinion that voting for Kerry, Hilary and Biden is not the solution. Mocking and insulting those people as Gore, Kerry, Hilary and Biden have all done does not help them in any way and only hurts them.

 

[Red Dreams]

K, that's your opinion. It's others opinion that voting for Kerry, Hilary and Biden is not the solution. Mocking and insulting those people as Gore, Kerry, Hilary and Biden have all done does not help them in any way and only hurts them.

Now you have said this several times in different ways.

It does not register.

 

[Revan]

K, that's your opinion. It's others opinion that voting for Kerry, Hilary and Biden is not the solution. Mocking and insulting those people as Gore, Kerry, Hilary and Biden have all done does not help them in any way and only hurts them.

Well we insult people who voted for an imbecile (Trump), so why insulting people who vote for an even bigger imbecile is wrong? And yes, Jill Stein might be the one politician in US who is even dumber than Trump.

 

[Red Dreams]

Well we insult people who voted for an imbecile (Trump), so why insulting people who vote for an even bigger imbecile is wrong? And yes, Jill Stein might be the one politician in US who is even dumber than Trump.

Why do you think Trump got the votes he did?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Well we insult people who voted for an imbecile (Trump), so why insulting people who vote for an even bigger imbecile is wrong? And yes, Jill Stein might be the one politician in US who is even dumber than Trump.

I never said its wrong in that sense. I didn't make a moral judgment.

I said its bad strategy, counterproductive and does more harm to the result you desire than good.

 

[Red Defence]

Last cycle I voted Green Party. I could have voted the Communist Party or another.

This time IF it is neither Bernie or Warren I will simply write in Bernie's name whether they allow it or not. Basically it will be a non vote.


As to your question, I have answered above.

Why vote at all? Not voting would have the same effect.

 

[Revan]

Why do you think Trump got the votes he did?

Cause a lot of people are racists and idiots, and he fed on them.

 

[Red Dreams]

Why vote at all? Not voting would have the same effect.

I have answered this.

 

[Red Defence]

Why do you think Trump got the votes he did?

Protest vote?

 

[Red Dreams]

Cause a lot of people are racists and idiots, and he fed on them.

This proves you are the imbecile.

You have learned nothing from what happened last cycle. You swallowed whole the MSM BS.

These people primarily voted Democrat and were lied to for decades. Trump appealed to their fears.

There was a vacuum and he helped fill it.

These same people can be won back, by offering real policies that better their lives.

 

[Revan]

Protest vote?

Doubt it. His fanbase are almost rabbid. They literally love him, for being a racist and for saying things that they want to hear. Johnson* or McMullin (Bush junior voted him) would have been protest votes. Trump totally galvanized most of Republican voters from the beginning to the end.

He's also dumb, but not Stein-dumb.

 

[Revan]

This proves you are the imbecile.

You have learned nothing from what happened last cycle. You swallowed whole the SMS BS.

These people primarily voted Democrat and were lied to for decades. Trump appealed to their fears.

There was a vacuum and he helped fill it.

These same people can be won back, by offering real policies that better their lives.

Not many Democrats voted Trump. Instead, many Democrats stayed home, while Republicans voted Trump.

You won't get back Trump voters and there is no point on targeting them. If Dems want to win, they should try to make Democrats and Democrat-leaning Independents go and vote.

 

[Red Dreams]

Not many Democrats voted Trump. Instead, many Democrats stayed home, while Republicans voted Trump.

Rubbish post.

People in the Rust belt voted straight Democrat for years. Clinton and NFTA ring a bell?

 

[Revan]

Rubbish post.

People in the Rust belt voted straight Democrat for years. Clinton and NFTA ring a bell?

How many Democrats you know voted for Trump?

 

[Red Dreams]

@Revan

Obama won Ohio twice. A Black guy.
Why? He offered policies.

The same 'racists' who then voted Trump.

 

[Red Defence]

I have answered this.

Well can you try again please because all I can find is “rather than not vote”.

 

[Revan]

@Revan

Obama won Ohio twice. A Black guy.
Why? He offered policies.

The same 'racists' who then voted Trump.

You're either missing the point, or you're trying hard to play dumb.

Obama was able to make Democrats vote in large scale. Clinton was not. It isn't that Obama voters suddenly decided to vote for Trump, but instead many of them didn't vote at all (or became smartarses and voted Stein which is the same thing anyway), while Trump was able to make Republicans vote in massive numbers. In fact, Trump got in Ohio only 180k votes more than Romney (which is to be expected considering that the population of US is increasing), but Hillary got 430k votes less than Obama.

 

[Red Dreams]

Well can you try again please because all I can find is “rather than not vote”.

Post #1508

 

[Carolina Red]

@Revan

Obama won Ohio twice. A Black guy.
Why? He offered policies.

The same 'racists' who then voted Trump.

Ohio also cast some 225,000 fewer votes for president in 2016 than it did in 2008 despite having a slightly larger population.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This is really important to understanding how the Dems can win and how they can feck it up:

"Many expected Hispanics to vote overwhelmingly against Trump in 2016. A Latino Decisions poll conducted just before the 2016 presidential election found Trump had the support of just 18 percent of Hispanics. But the actual figure was 28 percent, which—given Trump’s incendiary rhetoric about immigrants—some analysts and pundits refused to believe from exit polls until further studies confirmed it."

 

[Red Dreams]

You're either missing the point, or you're trying hard to play dumb.

Obama was able to make Democrats vote in large scale. Clinton was not. It isn't that Obama voters suddenly decided to vote for Trump, but instead many of them didn't vote at all (or became smartarses and voted Stein which is the same thing anyway), while Trump was able to make Republicans vote in massive numbers. In fact, Trump got in Ohio only 180k votes more than Romney (which is to be expected considering that the population of US is increasing), but Hillary got 430k votes less than Obama.

This has been addressed.

I have seen interviews of people who said they voted Obama than Trump.

Also young people who are clearly not racists who voted Trump in spite of his behaviour.

 

[Revan]

29% of Hispanics and Asians voted for Trump. 37% of Other race voted for Trump and even 8% of blacks voted for Trump.

Do you believe they all voted for Trump because of racism?

I also mentioned that many of them are idiots, to be fair.

Trump offered simple solutions to simple people. We will do things better, make America great again, bring jobs back to farmers and truckers and coal miners, everyone will have more money and better insurance etc, but never went into how is he going to do that. A lot of people don't have neither the intellect nor the will to actually delve deeper into how those things are to be achieved. They just saw a successful old white man (in a country where the money is everything) and voted for him. A lot of Trump voters in Trump actually see 'what they would like to be (successful rich people)'.

This notion that politics is mainly a battle of policies is ridiculous. Most of the people don't vote for policies, they vote for people based on personal traits, charisma, the perception of electability and so on. It is why old uncle Joe is doing so well in the polls, or why Trump won. If it was a battle of policies, Warren would easily win both the primaries and the main election.

 

[Red Dreams]

This is really important to understanding how the Dems can win and how they can feck it up:

"Many expected Hispanics to vote overwhelmingly against Trump in 2016. A Latino Decisions poll conducted just before the 2016 presidential election found Trump had the support of just 18 percent of Hispanics. But the actual figure was 28 percent, which—given Trump’s incendiary rhetoric about immigrants—some analysts and pundits refused to believe from exit polls until further studies confirmed it."

These Hispanic votes for Trump come from those who felt immigrants should come in legally like they did.

 

[Red Defence]

Post #1508

Thanks. It doesn’t answer my question though.

 

[Red Dreams]

Ohio also cast some 225,000 fewer votes for president in 2016 than it did in 2008 despite having a slightly larger population.

Certainly many democratic voters refused to vote for Clinton could either have not voted at all or voted for Trump.

Trump overall fluked it.

 

[Red Dreams]

Thanks. It doesn’t answer my question though.

there is no wasted vote.

That is as simple as I can make it.

 

[roseguy64]

When I asked my wife to watch the Rogan interview , my wife watched it through and said something that shook me a bit.

"I hope they don't kill him"

Why would he be killed?

 

[Revan]

This has been addressed.

I have seen interviews of people who said they voted Obama than Trump.

Also young people who are clearly not racists who voted Trump in spite of his behaviour.

No, it has not. By just looking at numbers, you see that Trump got more votes than Romney which is to be expected considering the increase on population (and going against a weaker candidate, so those in the middle might have shifted for him), while Clinton got almost half a million votes less than Obama which is inexcusable. The only explanation is that some of the Dems stayed home, not that they suddenly decided to shift from Obama to Trump.

 

[Raoul]

Why would he be killed?

Because he's the One...and you know, the powers that be would never allow the One to come to power. They want to keep us down at all costs.

 

[lsd]

People like him are the perfect fodder for the Democratic Party as it is.

They cannot see what is in front of them.

On one side we have people.
On the other side there is ..Evil. Those who live off the blood and death of people.

The choice is simple. But we are supposed to vote for Evil because there is a bigger evil lurking.

These people have no depth to them.

The only way out of the vicious cycle is not to accept their choice.

btw I believe Bernie's real goal this and the last cycle was to bring greater awareness to Progressive ideas. I believe he has succeeded.
I still think he has a good chance at being president.

We are aways away.

You do know that doesn't work unless nobody votes which will never happen so yes all you achieve is allowing the biggest evil to win every time and things will just continue to get worse

 

[Raoul]

No, it has not. By just looking at numbers, you see that Trump got more votes than Romney which is to be expected considering the increase on population (and going against a weaker candidate, so those in the middle might have shifted for him), while Clinton got almost half a million votes less than Obama which is inexcusable. The only explanation is that some of the Dems stayed home, not that they suddenly decided to shift from Obama to Trump.

The Dems were also significantly more factionalized in 2016 than in 2012. In 12, there was still a degree of party unity that propelled and benefitted the nominee. By 16, that had devolved into a tribal food fight that justified the losing faction not supporting the nominee. Sanders moved the overton window into a place (whether for better or worse) that justified not voting for the nominee.

 

[roseguy64]

Because he's the One...and you know, the powers that be would never allow the One to come to power. They want to keep us down at all costs.

That's the angle I thought of. See it lots on social media when someone gets relatively famous for speaking of the betterment of others. People talk about protecting them for fear they'll get killed. The majority of the times it doesn't happen. And it mostly refers to when Hoover ran the FBI and they were actively targeting the civil rights movement.

 

[nimic]

No, it has not. By just looking at numbers, you see that Trump got more votes than Romney which is to be expected considering the increase on population (and going against a weaker candidate, so those in the middle might have shifted for him), while Clinton got almost half a million votes less than Obama which is inexcusable. The only explanation is that some of the Dems stayed home, not that they suddenly decided to shift from Obama to Trump.

The Obama-Trump voter is a real phenomenon, although it obviously doesn't explain all or even most of Trump's win.

 

[Revan]

The Dems were also significantly more factionalized in 2016 than in 2012. In 12, there was still a degree of party unity that propelled and benefitted the nominee. By 16, that had devolved into a tribal food fight that justified the losing faction not supporting the nominee. Sanders moved the overton window into a place (whether for better or worse) that justified not voting for the nominee.

This is absolutely true and is the main cause why they lost. I was just explaining that they lost cause many Dems stay home, not cause Dems switched to Trump.

Also, I believe that Democrat party is to be blamed for the split which happened (and to be fair by doing so they made a no-mark politician like Sanders Jesus MK2). A fairer primary would have ensured (to a large degree) that Sanders bros wouldn't have hated Hillary more than Trump. And as we can see now, hardly he is going to win in a fair primary anyway.

 

[Revan]

The Obama-Trump voter is a real phenomenon, although it obviously doesn't explain all or even most of Trump's win.

Obviously, there are people who voted Obama (and usually vote Democrats) and then voted Trump, same as there exist people who voted Romney (and usually vote Republican) and then voted Clinton. But there are many more Dems who didn't vote at all than voted for Trump.

 

[Red Defence]

there is no wasted vote.

That is as simple as I can make it.

Was present at a few vote counts when I was younger. No-one ever took much notice of “spoiled” ballot papers, they were just counted and binned. Of course it may be different in the US.

 

[Raoul]

Sound policies from Bernie

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Cause a lot of people are racists and idiots, and he fed on them.

29% of Hispanics and Asians voted for Trump. 37% of Other race voted for Trump and even 8% of blacks voted for Trump.

Do you believe they all voted for Trump because of racism?


Sorry I don't want this to get lost because I believe its not being discussed enough among the Dems that default to racism all the time.

Trump’s Secret to Victory in 2020: Hispanic Voters
Yes, it’s true: The man who wants to build a wall to keep out immigrants is winning over just enough Latinos to get re-elected. Unless Democrats figure out how to stop him.

"A Latino Decisions poll conducted just before the 2016 presidential election found Trump had the support of just 18 percent of Hispanics. But the actual figure was 28 percent, which—given Trump’s incendiary rhetoric about immigrants—some analysts and pundits refused to believe from exit polls until further studies confirmed it."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/24/2020-hispanic-voters-donald-trump-225192

 

[George Owen]

29% of Hispanics and Asians voted for Trump. 37% of Other race voted for Trump and even 8% of blacks voted for Trump.

Do you believe they all voted for Trump because of racism?


Trump’s Secret to Victory in 2020: Hispanic Voters
Yes, it’s true: The man who wants to build a wall to keep out immigrants is winning over just enough Latinos to get re-elected. Unless Democrats figure out how to stop him.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/24/2020-hispanic-voters-donald-trump-225192

It's not racism per se, it's fear and resentment against other Latinos/Asians/immigrants who will come and take their jobs. Just uneducated people scared as feck. Trump feeds on fear.