You don't understand. Now the narrative will shift and Ole will be a PE teacher who is clueless, who's not able to get the best out of our world class team and players. Just wait for it!
3rd but we are supposedly crap
- Thread starter sammsky1
- Start date
We're dangerous also when the opposition attack (sorry couldn't resist). As for your claim about "lack of preparation" sorry not buying into that as sammsky1 has already stated elsewhere, we have no issue away from home banging them in for fun as we did at home against RB in the first game, so love to know the reason for our poor home form in terms of scoring.
Woah didn't realize he gotten shot of so many, ruthless bastard or what. As for our "progress" its very frustrating even more so than when we played under the dapper don, which is very annoying as yes Leeds gung ho helped to a degree as some say about yesterday, but we do play rather appealing footie at times where you think, yeah we can put it up too and challenge the victims for the title.
You may very well not buy it, but pre season is a thing for a reason. Along with City we had the least amount of preparation and it's telling, as they have also struggled for form. Add to this our young front line will show signs of inconsistency at times then it's not all too surprising.
Bielsa and his team get a lot of praise for that performance because even though they were 2-0 down in 3 mins, they kept attacking. It was amazing to watch because I doubt any other team would do the same. Even the likes of Barca, Madrid or Bayern would tighten up the defense. Play with the ball for a while and only then start attacking again but Leeds started pushing right away. Some of those crosses and lofted passes along with the one-touch passing was really great to watch. I think United worked very hard to win this game and I believe we should give them a lot of credit for what they have done. It was just brilliant how we managed to attack every time we got the ball and created loads and loads of chances. On another day, we would've scored 10-12 goals. Not to say that our defense was good, we made a lot of mistakes and cannot still handle aerial balls in the box. What bugs me even more is, we allow crosses to come into the box. AWB is great at one on one tackles but more than most times he doesn't press the winger or the wing back. Shaw is better at that and so is Telles. The CBs letting the squared balls roll around in front of the goalkeeper in another thing that irritates the crap out of me. We often give the opponents too much space in front of goal and any other team will take full advantage of that. Our front 4 though have come good in the last few games and it is amazing to watch them. Their first touches have been of the top quality and it is amazing to watch United players play one touch football for once. Bruno has lead the way in each of the games since he joined except of course the one game which according to me, cost us the CL knockout entry and that's the Istanbul away game. All in all, it is getting better and we can only hope and wish we get some good players in during the next couple of windows to make this a much much better team.
Names that come to mind,
Out-
Jones
Rojo
Lingard
Matic
Mata (he can be used but we need better players to rotate as he doesn't fit our system otherwise a fantastic player)
In-
Sancho
Martinez/Haaland
Camavinga/Rice/Saul
Upamecano
If we manage to get these players or at least 3 of the 4. We'll become one of the top teams in Europe and OT will become a fortress again.
Names that come to mind,
Out-
Jones
Rojo
Lingard
Matic
Mata (he can be used but we need better players to rotate as he doesn't fit our system otherwise a fantastic player)
In-
Sancho
Martinez/Haaland
Camavinga/Rice/Saul
Upamecano
If we manage to get these players or at least 3 of the 4. We'll become one of the top teams in Europe and OT will become a fortress again.
I've barely seen any pundit or journalist give Ole credit for anything since he became permanent manager, not expecting that to change now. Meanwhile Bielsa is god and Arteta needs to be given time to sort things out.
From our own fans, you will always have the morons who are just thirsty for constant change and freak out every time we concede a goal or have a bad game. Filter those guys out though and there are a decent amount of fans who think we're on the right track.
From our own fans, you will always have the morons who are just thirsty for constant change and freak out every time we concede a goal or have a bad game. Filter those guys out though and there are a decent amount of fans who think we're on the right track.
We shouldn't judge a manager on league position too early in a season - one way or another. The top 11 or so are basically 2 wins from each other, so 3rd today could well be 10th in 10 days time. I wouldn't go down this road.
The media and punits overreact to everything, and I think we're doing that here.
For me - yes even despite this particular week's match - Ole's team doesn't always pass the 'eye test' regardless of results. Maybe this win will jump start that, but maybe it won't. It will soon be a full year since Bruno joined, and if we continue to form we'll be right up there. That's a more fair barometer of Ole's success imo.
The media and punits overreact to everything, and I think we're doing that here.
For me - yes even despite this particular week's match - Ole's team doesn't always pass the 'eye test' regardless of results. Maybe this win will jump start that, but maybe it won't. It will soon be a full year since Bruno joined, and if we continue to form we'll be right up there. That's a more fair barometer of Ole's success imo.
I think our midfield and attack is in the best shape it has been since Fergie; more often than not we are seeing movement off the ball, pace and having more of a go. The Defence is still a calamity, and we should focus on getting a ready-made CB in January. That will be a big boost for keeping in the race.
The ship have sailed with Sancho.
Defence looke a bit unorganised in the last match. At the same time a DM and a CB scored 3 goals together.
Someone claimed in an other thread, that we have conceded 9/21 goals from corners. That means 12 goals outside corners and 6 of those came in the same match. If the stats are correct it means we have a very solid defence except for corners. That’s where we need to improve most.
The point is that our squad has so much potential that people think we should be doing better and battering teams/be in title contention. There's nothing wrong with that?
Even yesterday, we conceded so many chances, if that were Liverpool, they wouldn't have missed a lot of those chances.
I'm not Ole in or out. Just posting my observation.
Even yesterday, we conceded so many chances, if that were Liverpool, they wouldn't have missed a lot of those chances.
I'm not Ole in or out. Just posting my observation.
Clearly we're not crap, what we are is flawed. Great in some respects but with some major weaknesses that stop us really standing out.
That said, every other team in the league is flawed too in some way, Liverpool included (albeit mainly due to their injuries at CB). I look at that gaggle of teams between 2nd and 8th and I dont think any of them are the finished article, or any of them are to be feared.
That said, every other team in the league is flawed too in some way, Liverpool included (albeit mainly due to their injuries at CB). I look at that gaggle of teams between 2nd and 8th and I dont think any of them are the finished article, or any of them are to be feared.
I raised this point a while ago. At some point this season we had the same number of goals conceded from open play as own goals*. Sometimes we will concede from counter attacks, but our really big issue are set pieces in general. We're fine at defending in open play.
*obviously after we dropped Pogba - Matic midfield.
That were more likely because we accepted Leed's invitation to go Gung Ho all match.
Both were more interested to attack rather than defending. Tackles were early instead of standard jockey, space were abundant and the game was fast.
Imagine we signed someone who can come in Jan and have even half of Bruno’s impact only this time defensively?
Some great points raised on this thread. I was contemplating the reason why OGS gets so much hate in the media while other managers performing worse that him are still somehow held in high regard. I have a troubling notion about this - seems to me that pundits don't take him seriously because he doesn't come from a traditionally football heavyweight country. Some of their biases are to do with restricting football's excellence within the powerhouse countries and any manager coming from outside threatens that world view. "He is from Norway and so he must be shit".
Also, what doesn't help is Ole's profile as a super-sub who comes late into games and scores goals. Despite his heroics for the club, the media still views him as someone who Ferguson kept around for laughs and the occasional cameo performance and hence they inherently disregard his football intelligence.
Ole is inexperienced at this level and will make mistakes but I think the media has been very unfair to him. While they are happy to see managers like Arteta and Lampard learn on the job and get better, somehow they have decided that Ole doesn't have it in himself to get better at all and this is his highest level.
Also, what doesn't help is Ole's profile as a super-sub who comes late into games and scores goals. Despite his heroics for the club, the media still views him as someone who Ferguson kept around for laughs and the occasional cameo performance and hence they inherently disregard his football intelligence.
Ole is inexperienced at this level and will make mistakes but I think the media has been very unfair to him. While they are happy to see managers like Arteta and Lampard learn on the job and get better, somehow they have decided that Ole doesn't have it in himself to get better at all and this is his highest level.
I see it mostly as a product of where his managerial experience has come from. The media would have given him plenty of leeway had he managed some shithouse team languishing towards the bottom of the Spanish, German, or Italian leagues. It's a good old bit of football snobbery that someone from the lowly Norwegian league has dared to come here.
It’s a strange one isn’t it. Open the Sky Sports app. right now - what’s the first thing you see - mine is “Nev: Bizarre where Utd are in the table”
Now, what is that based on exactly? It seems to me it’s nothing more than a feeling.
If you look at the form table post-Fernandes last season, we picked up the most points in England between Feb-end of the season (I think - if not THE most it was right up there)
Likewise this season, we had a horrible start taking 7/18pts available...but there’s a legitimate and credible “excuse” for that. We had had two weeks pre-season and the teams we were playing had had six weeks.
Since that period, we have taken 16/18pts, a run which included very tricky away ties against West Ham, Everton and Southampton. All teams who are performing well near the top and all teams we have underperformed against post-SAF.
So, what’s bizarre about it exactly? There’s seems to be this narrative that we struggle to break teams down...but is that really true now? Sure, when we regularly fielded Mata, Pereira, Lingard, James as starters it might have been...how many times have we struggled for goals when a combination of Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford, Martial, Cavani and Greenwood have played?
Will we win the league? No. Is it “bizarre” that we are second? Not really for me. Chelsea, Spurs and City all have at least as many flaws as we do...so yeah...we’re not as good as Liverpool but can we match those sides? Why not?
Now, what is that based on exactly? It seems to me it’s nothing more than a feeling.
If you look at the form table post-Fernandes last season, we picked up the most points in England between Feb-end of the season (I think - if not THE most it was right up there)
Likewise this season, we had a horrible start taking 7/18pts available...but there’s a legitimate and credible “excuse” for that. We had had two weeks pre-season and the teams we were playing had had six weeks.
Since that period, we have taken 16/18pts, a run which included very tricky away ties against West Ham, Everton and Southampton. All teams who are performing well near the top and all teams we have underperformed against post-SAF.
So, what’s bizarre about it exactly? There’s seems to be this narrative that we struggle to break teams down...but is that really true now? Sure, when we regularly fielded Mata, Pereira, Lingard, James as starters it might have been...how many times have we struggled for goals when a combination of Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford, Martial, Cavani and Greenwood have played?
Will we win the league? No. Is it “bizarre” that we are second? Not really for me. Chelsea, Spurs and City all have at least as many flaws as we do...so yeah...we’re not as good as Liverpool but can we match those sides? Why not?
I believe part of the reason why there is little "enthusiasm" toward us in the press is because of how cautiously Ole approached games vs big boys this season. Liverpool performance against Tottenham was impressive and confidence - building, while we were playing for a goalless draw so not exactly inspiring. I can see the logic as it seems this season you can win the league with lower number of points, but I guess a win over Leicester and good game against Liverpool can make a statement. We are not second tier I believe in eyes of most.
I hardly think so. In fact since the change of managers at Dortmund and their form, I'm thinking he'll want out sooner than you know.
Ole thrived from not being taken seriously as a player. My guess is he does the same now, as a manager.
Attacking wise, Ole has got us playing brilliantly, we score 3+ goals in 33% of our matches under Ole. Next highest is Moyes with 27%, LVG on 25% and Jose on 22%.
He has benefitted with VAR mind you, but it's about time we've got an entertaining team again. Defensively, not good enough though, Ole's got the lowest percentage of clean sheets in comparison to the other 3 managers. We won't win titles with a defense as poor as ours is. We need a VVD type signing to really push us to the next step of being at the top again. But don't take anything away from us, we're a decent team right now. Things can only improve this season, get Greenwood and Martial scoring goals and we'll be very dangerous.
Stat (All comps) | Ole | Jose | LvG | Moyes |
|---|---|---|---|---|
Games | 111 | 144 | 103 | 51 |
3 Goals | 23 | 16 | 22 | 8 |
4 Goals | 7 | 16 | 3 | 5 |
5 Goals | 5 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
6 Goals | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
He has benefitted with VAR mind you, but it's about time we've got an entertaining team again. Defensively, not good enough though, Ole's got the lowest percentage of clean sheets in comparison to the other 3 managers. We won't win titles with a defense as poor as ours is. We need a VVD type signing to really push us to the next step of being at the top again. But don't take anything away from us, we're a decent team right now. Things can only improve this season, get Greenwood and Martial scoring goals and we'll be very dangerous.
So what's the reason we need a different manager?
Besides a 'feeling' Ole hasn't got 'it'.
True. I did think that his opponents underestimated him on quite a few occasions. The narrative that Ole is a glorified caretaker whose only job is to let the players play how they want without creating a fuss is still prevalent. I think only a strong title challenge will jolt the rest of the world into believing he isn't that.
To be fair though, I am in the Ole out camp now because I believe that we are stagnating as a team and Ole's in game management has much to be desired but that doesn't take away the fact that he has been far more successful than some of his supposedly illustrious peers. Credit where it is deserved.
Couldn’t agree more with this bit. It’s a very odd position to be in. He’s done better than I thought and has/is doing better than others who haven’t quite been as heavily scrutinised and yet I still don’t and will never think he’s good enough to take us to the next level.
You will never think hes good enough to take us to the next level, even if he does?
He was a good player, but he was then and still is now a merchant banker
So far the clubs which are usually challenging for the title have gone off the freakish form they showed in the past 2 seasons and with the addition of Bruno we have improved a lot. Both things together from the results so far, seemed to have closed the gap a bit. I'm not saying we will challenge for the title but if we fix our home form, we can be in a good place on the table at the end of the season.
i was just thinking about that horrendous decision when the goal line technology didnt work and it basically kept Villa up, but for that, we may have Grealish
None of the coaches are still talking to Wan Bissaka about his poor positioning. That's incredible to me that he keeps making the same mistakes every game. It certainly does not help Maguire and Lindelof.
Well him doing so would negate that thought
And of course I hope to feck it happens.If we manage to recruit a couple quality additions in January (definitely a CB) and get Greenwood and Martial firing on all cylinders then we are looking good for a proper push.
Consistency and squad depth has been our achilles heel, but we seem to have become more consistent of late, and when you look at that bench vs Leeds, you have to think we have the squad depth to mount a serious challenge, if not this season then for sure next season.
The key for me is to avoid injuries to Rashford, Bruno, and the central partnership of Lindelof and Maguire. Injuries in central defence leave us terribly exposed, and we lack any real thrust going forward without Bruno and Rashford. We should rest 3 of those 4 in the Carabao.
Consistency and squad depth has been our achilles heel, but we seem to have become more consistent of late, and when you look at that bench vs Leeds, you have to think we have the squad depth to mount a serious challenge, if not this season then for sure next season.
The key for me is to avoid injuries to Rashford, Bruno, and the central partnership of Lindelof and Maguire. Injuries in central defence leave us terribly exposed, and we lack any real thrust going forward without Bruno and Rashford. We should rest 3 of those 4 in the Carabao.
Yes it looks even better than fine. But setpieces... I am sure we must be able to train away this flaw.
How do you know that?
I don't see why people resent Bielsa getting plaudits. That's a newly promoted team who are making football so much more watchable for people like you and me. They would never be expected to compete with us but consider two things.
1) He is getting points. They are well above the relegation zone, so he style does work.
2) Their team isn't remotely comparable to ours individual quality wise, so he should be praised for not doing what WBA did and just trying not to lose.
We've essentially been locked down for a year, any coach making football more fun for neutrals to watch deserves a medal. Arteta is under pressure and rightly so, his team is a bit average but his tactics are too extreme from what I have seen, in the opposite way to Biela. I feel for the Spurs and Arsenal fans right now
Agree, there points are pointless, I watched the SU game on prime and the commentators, were better, Ally Mcoist was one And I think the other was Gabriel Clarke, ex ITV ones when CL was on it. I don't like Tyler at all to many useless stats comments, I dont give a shit what leeds done 40yrs ago same as utd, just comment on what's in front of them the game.
Even if it is just a feeling that OGS isn't good enough, why does that mean someone doesn't support the club?
Not so long ago certain club achieved 97 points and still second. Not so long ago 81 points was still mile behind the Champion. 2 points per game was a careful study of previous seasons, not dreamed up. Sometime sub-2 may be good enough to be 4th, and perhaps during the 90s 2 points per game is more than enough to win the league, if you CARE to look at the table for the past 10 years, you should know you need 90 points. Stop looking at your neighbour, focus on yourself.
This is a season where most of the big clubs are in rough waters. Even Liverpool haven't been nearly as frightening as they were last year. If City and Chelsea had been having a good year, and Arsenal hadn't vanished, we'd be a lot worse off. I mean, we're talking about a season where Tottenham, Leicester and bloody Everton have been looked to as possible title contenders. Clawing our way back into a tenuous top four by Christmas time, in such a season, is not that much of a redemption. There have been many seasons where our current point tally would have us languishing in 6th place, and that's after a string of good results.
It wasn't very long ago that we were sniffing around 8-10th place. Our performances have been all over the place, we've conceded first in half our games, and until Sunday where we padded the numbers against a team that chose not to defend at all, our home form was an absolute travesty. We look uncomfortable against almost every team we face, including the minnows. We've conceded more goals than twelve other PL sides, and that's with a game in hand. We're correctly looked upon as a one-man team. We're also out of the CL group stage. There's a long, long way to go before this team can be called genuinely good. There are very few positives so far.
Being in third place doesn't mean that much right now. If the other big clubs weren't punching below their weight, we'd be far behind. Our performance in the CL is more indicative of how we're doing this season than our place on the table. The number of games thus far where we've been astoundingly poor is far too high to be comfortable with the way things are going. I would hope the club staff is not as shortsighted and complacent as some fans.
It wasn't very long ago that we were sniffing around 8-10th place. Our performances have been all over the place, we've conceded first in half our games, and until Sunday where we padded the numbers against a team that chose not to defend at all, our home form was an absolute travesty. We look uncomfortable against almost every team we face, including the minnows. We've conceded more goals than twelve other PL sides, and that's with a game in hand. We're correctly looked upon as a one-man team. We're also out of the CL group stage. There's a long, long way to go before this team can be called genuinely good. There are very few positives so far.
Being in third place doesn't mean that much right now. If the other big clubs weren't punching below their weight, we'd be far behind. Our performance in the CL is more indicative of how we're doing this season than our place on the table. The number of games thus far where we've been astoundingly poor is far too high to be comfortable with the way things are going. I would hope the club staff is not as shortsighted and complacent as some fans.
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