4-Way v2: DVG vs Isotope

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

TEAM DVG

Formation: La Maquina inspired 3-2-5

Tactics: Defensively, the 3CB's are capable of looking after the defensive third, assisted by a dynamic midfield duo that know's how to stifle any oppositions offensive play.With one of the legendary world cup goalkeepers between the sticks, this is a safe as houses back line that will be difficult for any attack to break down, even with the absence of full backs.

The attack have a very simple instruction. Have fun. Since Ronaldinho and Rivellino have both demonstrated their abilities centrally and on the left side, take the starting positions with a grain of salt. Dalglish is one of the top ten support strikers in history and will dovetail nicely with Van Nistelrooy who will be rubbing his hands at the prospect of playing in this front line. Garrincha is Garrincha, the best RW in history with free reign to dominate the right flank.

Player Profiles:

GK: Gylmar- 2X world cup winner, back to back. The greatest GK in Brazilian history and one of the top South American GK'S of the 20th century.

RCB: Thuram- World cup winner, European championship winner. One of the greatest right sided defenders in history.

SW/CB: Hansen- 3X European cup winner. Part of the great Liverpool team of yesteryear and one of the best players Scotland has ever produced.

LCB: Samuel- Champions League winner. Excelled in 3 at the back formation for Roma culminating in big money move to Real Madrid. Known as "the wall" for good reason.

CM: Makelele- Champions league winner. Has a position named after him, enough said.

CM: Bremner- Leeds Utd greatest ever player and one of Scotland's finest. A hard bastard who could mix it with anyone except Dave Mackay.

CAM: Rivellino- World cup winner, one of Brazil's greatest ever attacking players.

RW: Garrincha- 2X world cup winner. The best RW in history and for a lot of people who saw both play, better than Pele.

LW: Ronaldinho- World cup winner, Champions league winner, Ballon d'or winner. Arguably the most enjoyable player to watch in the history of the game.

SS: Dalglish- 3X European cup winner. The finest player Scotland has ever produced.

ST: Van Nistelrooy- One of the best number 9's of the modern era, and as clinical as they come. Top scorer in champions league 3 times.


Thoughts on the opposition: Isotope has some impressive players in that squad, however his squad does play into my hands due to him not having any out and out wingers which plays into my defenders/midfielders hand as they are all extremely capable of dealing with any threat in the middle. My forward line and their ability to interchange/drop deep/dictate play will demand the full respect of isotopes defence for the duration of the game. I haven't seen much footage of Varela or Andrade so i'm not sure how to judge their influence on the game.

Why I will win this game: I think my formation here suits this opposition. There were other managers that I wouldn't have backed my side against as much but that's not the case here. It's an impressive defence from Isotope, but with 5 world class attackers to deal with i'd be backing my guys to break them down.

TEAM ISOTOPE

Tactic.
Not much surprised on tactic. The team is a tank on defense, with creative brilliance in attack. The double brigade on both flanks would nullify the opponent main strength. With others, O.Varela, Vidal, and the Kaiser will be limiting opponents control on final third.

On attack, combination of sheer speed, skills and visions will guaranteed goals against opponents weak defence. There are 4 regular goalscorers on the side, plus Kaiser, ensuring unpredictable source of goals.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@DVG7 @Isotope All the best!

 

[DVG7]

An unsurprising defence from isotope, Not quite sure he’s correct to call my defence weak considering there isn’t a player in his team with a goalscoring record that’s anything to write home about.

 

[DVG7]

Also unsure about Figueroa and Kaiser in the same lineup given their similarities. I think you lose a lot of Elias best traits by not letting him play the sweeper role. Not to say he’s not a good enough stopper, but he has his work cut out for him here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Competent Defence from DVG but I'm not sold on his attack. La Maquina had Moreno and Pedernera doing a lot of work there. Rivelino and Ronaldinho have lots of stylistic overlaps and a proper Outside Left would be preferred at expense of one of them. Also there's a distinct lack of another IF.

Looks to be a tactical goof by Isotope. No idea why Kaiser is not a DM (1966 version) here. I don't buy VR Andrade as a wingback at all. He was a Side CB in a back 3 during his peak. I have not heard much about his offensive capabilities. A straight back 4 with Kaizer as DM would improve this setup by a huge margin.

 

[DVG7]

Competent Defence from DVG but I'm not sold on his attack. La Maquina had Moreno and Pedernera doing a lot of work there. Rivelino and Ronaldinho have lots of stylistic overlaps and a proper Outside Left would be preferred at expense of one of them. Also there's a distinct lack of another IF.

Looks to be a tactical goof by Isotope. No idea why Kaiser is not a DM (1966 version) here. I don't buy VR Andrade as a wingback at all. He was a Side CB in a back 3 during his peak. I have not heard much about his offensive capabilities. A straight back 4 with Kaizer as DM would improve this setup by a huge margin.

inspired in the sense of having 5 amazing attackers, not necessarily the implementation of the exact same strategy, though I would argue that Dalglish is a fine fit for a pedernera role.

 

[Enigma_87]

Also unsure about Figueroa and Kaiser in the same lineup given their similarities. I think you lose a lot of Elias best traits by not letting him play the sweeper role. Not to say he’s not a good enough stopper, but he has his work cut out for him here.

You can pair up Figueroa with pretty much anybody without taking away from his game. His frame is big, very physical and phenomenal in the air. I'd say he compliments an old school libero or sweeper as good as any other stopper in history (including Kohler) could.

Elias could stay back on consistent basis putting some great performances (like against West Germany). In most Chile games against tough opposition he rarely played a natural libero role, but was pretty much conservative from what I've seen.

 

[DVG7]

"When he came to Botafogo for a trial, he put the first ball he touched straight between my legs. A lot of people thought I would be offended but they were wrong. I told the directors there and then that they had to sign him. Fortunately, they listened to me."

So said Nilton Santos of one of the most gifted players to have ever graced a football pitch. Manoel Francisco dos Santos, better known as Garrincha, was Botafogo and Brazil's craque during the late 1950s and early 1960s, the ace in the hole and arguably the greatest player of his generation.

Up against Andrade here, who is so difficult to judge thanks to a lack of footage (although i'm pretty certain he was never close to being a left wing back) I can't really envision any other outcome than Garrincha dominating that flank. Such is the lack of a left sided offensive threat in Isotope's team, his set-up allows Garrincha to be at his absolute best. Facchetti at LB with Maldini at LCB would have a tough time against him, so I think him being up against two players who are probably both not in their best roles has to be taken into consideration here.

 

[harms]

By all accounts, Andrade is a questionable choice for that role. His uncle would've been a better fit here (albeit on the right). And, while Figueroa doesn't take anything from Beckenbauer, having them both at the back limits Figueroa a bit, turning him simply into a stopper figure. He can perform that role to perfection, but what was the point of picking him?

I also don't like the use of Ronaldinho here and I never liked him being paired with Rivellino, since, again, it takes a lot from one of them who has to adjust to the other.

Truly weird teams.

 

[Jim Beam]

This is a proper mindfeck of a team from @DVG7. Having hard time to envision how it would function in a real game.

On the other hand, Andrade as a wing-back is an odd choice and Elias & Beckenbauer looks strange in a back 3 too. Kaiser in midfield alongside Varela would be much better imo.

Need to get drunk to judge this one I think.

 

[Isotope]

By all accounts, Andrade is a questionable choice for that role. His uncle would've been a better fit here (albeit on the right). And, while Figueroa doesn't take anything from Beckenbauer, having them both at the back limits Figueroa a bit, turning him simply into a stopper figure. He can perform that role to perfection, but what was the point of picking him?

I also don't like the use of Ronaldinho here and I never liked him being paired with Rivellino, since, again, it takes a lot from one of them who has to adjust to the other.

Truly weird teams.

This is a proper mindfeck of a team from @DVG7. Having hard time to envision how it would function in a real game.

On the other hand, Andrade as a wing-back is an odd choice and Elias & Beckenbauer looks strange in a back 3 too. Kaiser in midfield alongside Varela would be much better imo.

Need to get drunk to judge this one I think.

It's actually an advantage to have two ball playing defenders. Not like Lindelof, but Figueroa and Kaiser as ball playing CBs that are excellent defenders also.
Also as in midfield, ones can have two playmakers with different set of playmaking. I'm not sure what's weird having two ball playing CBs. Madrid, Germany NT, Barca, City, and AC Milan (in the 90's) have/used to have these.

And their playmaking set is different. Kaiser likes the long pass, where Figueroa on the short passes (although Kaiser also loves one-two passes).
--
on Andrade:

47. Victor Rodriguez Andrade



Date Of Birth : 2 May 1927
Nation : Uruguay
Caps. : 42 Games
Position : Left and Right-Wing-Back
Height : 169 cm
Major Club : Penarol
World Cup Participation : 1950, 1954 (9 Games)
Club Honours : 3 Times Uruguay Champions
International Honours : 1950 FIFA World Cup Champion
1956 Copa America Winner
Individual Achievement : 1950 FIFA World Cup Best Defender

Victor Rodriguez Andrade was the greatest half-backs in the World during the 1st half 1950s, could operate in the both side from his effective two feet according to the metodo system. He was regarded as a successor as a nephew of Jose Leandro Andrade. V.R.Andrade was a complete defensive player with considerable physical and technical asset and help the great balance between defensive and offensive role. He start career at Central Espanyol and moved for Penarol where he met his peak career. He was best known for his highlight at the 1950 world cup final when he was assigned to mark the great Brazilian Zizinho and his performance result is one o fthe keys to help Uruguay win the trophy. Andrade was also successful in the 1954 World Cup and is the only Uruguayan player in his generation to win both World Cup and South American championship which is its first trophy within 10 years.
_______________________________
http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2013/07/Defender.html



Also I remember Antohan described VR Andrade as more of wingback.

 

[harms]

GK: Gylmar- 2X world cup winner, back to back. The greatest GK in history

I think you've missed the word "Brazil" somewhere
@DVG7

Thinking of it, if Andrade is stuck on a man-marking mission, it at least makes sense. Still, lose the arrows! Kaltz looks like a potential match-winner here by the way, even on a star-studded pitch like this one.

 

[DVG7]

By all accounts, Andrade is a questionable choice for that role. His uncle would've been a better fit here (albeit on the right). And, while Figueroa doesn't take anything from Beckenbauer, having them both at the back limits Figueroa a bit, turning him simply into a stopper figure. He can perform that role to perfection, but what was the point of picking him?

I also don't like the use of Ronaldinho here and I never liked him being paired with Rivellino, since, again, it takes a lot from one of them who has to adjust to the other.

Truly weird teams.

Thats the negative mindset, and part of the beauty of these fantasy teams is imagining what could have been, and these two are as good a combination as any to illustrate the point. I would contend its not too far fetched an idea for them to strike up a great understanding, and bring joga bonito to the pitch together, consistently interchanging and confusing the defence. It's also worth noting that Ronaldinhos best work came as a left sided attacker (Deco and Gudjohnsen both picked him here for their all time XI's in the recent four four two magazine) and Rivellino was finally trusted in the brazil squads off the back of his performances as a number 10. Both can play either position to a world class level, so if we imagine for a second that they could have formed a friendship and understanding on the pitch (I mean, they might even have an elastico competition mid game) then I think its conceivable that they would have been devastating on the pitch. And remember, the other attacking options I have mean that its very unlikely that the two R's will ever be surrounded by opposition players, leaving them a reasonable amount of space to work their magic.

 

[DVG7]

I think you've missed the word "Brazil" somewhere
@DVG7

Thinking of it, if Andrade is stuck on a man-marking mission, it at least makes sense. Still, lose the arrows! Kaltz looks like a potential match-winner here by the way, even on a star-studded pitch like this one.

haha just noticed that. @Edgar Allan Pillow can you please add"brazilian" to the description of Gylmar.

 

[Gio]

By all accounts, Andrade is a questionable choice for that role. His uncle would've been a better fit here (albeit on the right). And, while Figueroa doesn't take anything from Beckenbauer, having them both at the back limits Figueroa a bit, turning him simply into a stopper figure. He can perform that role to perfection, but what was the point of picking him?

I also don't like the use of Ronaldinho here and I never liked him being paired with Rivellino, since, again, it takes a lot from one of them who has to adjust to the other.

Truly weird teams.

I imagine Andrade will just sit on Garrincha all game and won't expose Dvg's lack of defensive cover on that flank before the defence. IMO he'll just think he's up against Garrincha and his position in terms of the overall team dynamic is less relevant.

 

[Jim Beam]

Thats the negative mindset, and part of the beauty of these fantasy teams is imagining what could have been, and these two are as good a combination as any to illustrate the point. I would contend its not too far fetched an idea for them to strike up a great understanding, and bring joga bonito to the pitch together, consistently interchanging and confusing the defence. It's also worth noting that Ronaldinhos best work came as a left sided attacker (Deco and Gudjohnsen both picked him here for their all time XI's in the recent four four two magazine) and Rivellino was finally trusted in the brazil squads off the back of his performances as a number 10. Both can play either position to a world class level, so if we imagine for a second that they could have formed a friendship and understanding on the pitch (I mean, they might even have an elastico competition mid game) then I think its conceivable that they would have been devastating on the pitch. And remember, the other attacking options I have mean that its very unlikely that the two R's will ever be surrounded by opposition players, leaving them a reasonable amount of space to work their magic.

Don't even have so much problems with them getting along in the attacking phase (kind of), but I doubt any of them aside from Dalglish will provide much work-rate. Then again you could argue Isotope won't move Andrade at all and rely on Kaltz being a sole provider of width. Makelele and Bremner is tough as it gets for Rivera too.

I take my words back, would definitely pay a ticket to see this one.

 

[DVG7]

lets talk about the main beneficiary of all that magic up top, Ruud Van Nistelrooy.



As a man who lives on goals and is famous for scoring inside the box so often for Manchester United, he is the perfect fit for this team. Not that the rest of my attackers don't carry any goal threat, but RVN is the purest finisher on the park and will often be marked by only one defender thanks to the trickery of the rest of the attackers demanding full attention. Even up against world class defenders, you have to back Ruud to get on the scoresheet here.

 

[harms]

on Andrade:

47. Victor Rodriguez Andrade

I don't trust xtraimmortal as a source one bit, only as a list of names to check if I haven't forgot anyone. I admire the work that he had put in, but too much of his stuff is a simplification of a more complex issues and he also seems to buy into the old can-do-everything write ups a bit too much.

Andrade's uncle was quite an attacking tour de force, but Victor Rodriguez was known first and foremost as a defender. They've switched him with Gambetta for the final not because he was an all-round package, but because he can man-mark Zizinho. As I've said later though, with Garrincha against him I'd expect him to be put on a man-marking duty (and I'm surprised that you didn't), and that would be the perfect role for him.

 

[DVG7]

I'm a big fan of Fransecoli, but I feel his influence is a but lot in this set up. He's a number 10, and would benefit more from having wingers or two strikers up top to play off of.

@harms I agree with your assertion that Kaltz could be hugely influential in this game and i think in transition he is a great outlet. I think my retort to that would be you have to consider how tired he is and how focussed he would have to be defensively, that it limits his opportunity to have an impact higher up. My defenders are all notoriously difficult to get past and the midfielders are excellent ball winners, so Kaltz being too adventurous could easily come back to haunt him and if that were to even happen once (which in all likelihood, it would) then it changes his mindset somewhat.

 

[Isotope]

I don't trust xtraimmortal as a source one bit, only as a list of names to check if I haven't forgot anyone. I admire the work that he had put in, but too much of his stuff is a simplification of a more complex issues and he also seems to buy into the old can-do-everything write ups a bit too much.

Andrade's uncle was quite an attacking tour de force, but Victor Rodriguez was known first and foremost as a defender. They've switched him with Gambetta for the final not because he was an all-round package, but because he can man-mark Zizinho. As I've said later though, with Garrincha against him I'd expect him to be put on a man-marking duty (and I'm surprised that you didn't), and that would be the perfect role for him.

It was in my mind. But as we know It's hard to man mark Garrincha. Even Zizinho pasted him when he was man-marked. I do have Figueroa on that side, and with double barricade, I think it's a lot safer.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It was in my mind. But as we know It's hard to man mark Garrincha. Even Zizinho pasted him when he was man-marked. I do have Figueroa on that side, and with double barricade, I think it's a lot safer.

Andrade/Figueroa vs Garrincha in a back 4 is good enough, I reckon. You need Beckenbauer in DM against Rivelino much more than you need his abilities as a sweeper.

 

[DVG7]

A team of the tournament performance culminating in his nations first and only international title, an intercontinental trophy at club level and legendary status at one of the most recognizable clubs in his country, this players performances were arguably the reason his country was so successful in the tournament they won.

Nullified the tournament favourites and hosts most renowned player more than once, and looked the better player on a park that featured some of the finest french footballers of any generation, including former ballon d'or winners. A true warrior.

His industry and never say die attitude were exemplary throughout the tournament, which put some bigger clubs on alert where he eventually moved, an indication of the undoubted talent this player possessed.

Quite the Bio right? The type of thing thats been written many times about Andrade and Varela.

The player in question here is Giourkas Seitaridis, Greece's right back at the 2004 Euros.

 

[harms]

It’s a comment about his tournament performance, not about his career. Andrade had 2 excellent World Cups and a win at Copa America (same as Varela), coupled with a good club career (an excellent one if we’re talking about Obdulio). As usual, there’s a good idea somewhere in that post, but the choice of an example kinda ruins it.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

A team of the tournament performance culminating in his nations first and only international title, an intercontinental trophy at club level and legendary status at one of the most recognizable clubs in his country, this players performances were arguably the reason his country was so successful in the tournament they won.

Nullified the tournament favourites and hosts most renowned player more than once, and looked the better player on a park that featured some of the finest french footballers of any generation, including former ballon d'or winners. A true warrior.

His industry and never say die attitude were exemplary throughout the tournament, which put some bigger clubs on alert where he eventually moved, an indication of the undoubted talent this player possessed.

Quite the Bio right? The type of thing thats been written many times about Andrade and Varela.

The player in question here is Giourkas Seitaridis, Greece's right back at the 2004 Euros.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It’s a comment about his tournament performance, not about his career. Andrade had 2 excellent World Cups and a win at Copa America (same as Varela), coupled with a good club career (an excellent one if we’re talking about Obdulio). As usual, there’s a good idea somewhere in that post, but the choice of an example kinda ruins it.

point still stands, those pre-footage players get glorified to heaven and back....all can run all day, are strong as hercules, great defenders with the technique of xavi.

 

[harms]

point still stands, those pre-footage players get glorified to heaven and back....all can run all day, are strong as hercules, great defenders with the technique of xavi.

As I said, I agree with the general idea.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

As I said, I agree with the general idea.

so we need a turd with 2 good tournaments and on paper a good club career?
@DVG7 try to dig some articles about Podolski

 

[DVG7]

It’s a comment about his tournament performance, not about his career. Andrade had 2 excellent World Cups and a win at Copa America (same as Varela), coupled with a good club career (an excellent one if we’re talking about Obdulio). As usual, there’s a good idea somewhere in that post, but the choice of an example kinda ruins it.

As I said, I agree with the general idea.

I used that example because it seems that Uruguay were the "underdogs" which resonates with the Greece side of 2004. Perhaps a player like Youri Djorkaeff would be better, started world cup and euro finals (winner both times) was in team of the tournament in 96, in a fifa XI in 97 and had success on the european stage with inter milan. 75 years from now on greenandgoldcafe someone could easily wax lyrical about him, but the reality is he was never worth talking about in an all time context, the way andrade and varela seem to be.

 

[DVG7]

@Isotope

I realize I’m talking up the opposition here, but where do you rank Casillas?

I’m sometimes inclined to put him as the best ever, simply for the amount of silverware he won and as a captain. But I think the way he came into that Real Madrid team at such a young age and made the position his own was incredible because;

1) Young goalkeepers really weren’t popular back then (I think he would have been the only starting teenage goalkeeper at any top team)

2) Real Madrid were in galactico mode and could easily have gone and bought one of the best from somewhere.

His introduction into the team too overlapped with the popularity of Spanish football on sky Tv (who can forget the “guapaaaaa” segment) and I remember even though there was so much star power in the league at the time, he was considered one of the most important players.

 

[Isotope]

@Isotope

I realize I’m talking up the opposition here, but where do you rank Casillas?

I’m sometimes inclined to put him as the best ever, simply for the amount of silverware he won and as a captain. But I think the way he came into that Real Madrid team at such a young age and made the position his own was incredible because;

1) Young goalkeepers really weren’t popular back then (I think he would have been the only starting teenage goalkeeper at any top team)

2) Real Madrid were in galactico mode and could easily have gone and bought one of the best from somewhere.

His introduction into the team too overlapped with the popularity of Spanish football on sky Tv (who can forget the “guapaaaaa” segment) and I remember even though there was so much star power in the league at the time, he was considered one of the most important players.

He's an incredible shot stopper, is the first things comes to mind. Imho, his shot stopping ability is similar to Pagliuca level. What separate him from the like of DDG is his mentality in big games. I don't recall any obvious "weakness" on his play, other than he's obviously not as dominant as Schmeichel and Kahn in the penalty box but still more of proactive type. His later days a bit tarnished his reputation, and he was declining. But it's usual for Gk that rely on reflex.

Tl;dr. Ability wise, in Pagliuca's, but adding with more aggressiveness and way more achievement.

EDIT: @harms posted a nice write-up about Top 20 Gk. I disagree with Pagliuca that low (for example, much lower than P. Cech) but some of those Gks I didn't follow their career.

 

[Isotope]

I imagine Andrade will just sit on Garrincha all game and won't expose Dvg's lack of defensive cover on that flank before the defence. IMO he'll just think he's up against Garrincha and his position in terms of the overall team dynamic is less relevant.

That's a fair assessment. My left flank has less support. That's why I have Enzo in there, sort of a free role second striker; with Vidal supporting with his surging run. Stoichkov would be ideal, but I think Enzo has a skill set to pull it off, like in 4:13 onward, or 6:18

 

[Isotope]

Andrade/Figueroa vs Garrincha in a back 4 is good enough, I reckon. You need Beckenbauer in DM against Rivelino much more than you need his abilities as a sweeper.

I see. I'm just too lazy to change the formation. Haha..
Anyway, the Kaiser is not just there on fixed position. He's open to roam around whenever he sees fit.

 

[DVG7]

It’s an interesting game this, because I look at where isotopes threat is coming from, and I look at the players in my set up and think yup, they should be able to cope pretty well. Then I look at the threat he has to deal with and it’s much harder to picture it not not working. His attack is somewhat boring, whereas mine is filled with flair and precision, often in 1v1 situations.

 

[DVG7]

An excellent read this on @Raees website

Lilian thuram;

http://pythagorasinboots.com/lilian-thuram-the-warrior-philosopher/

 

[DVG7]

Very uneventful match thread, good luck in the next round @Isotope

 

[Isotope]

Very uneventful match thread, good luck in the next round @Isotope

Sorry for the lack of discussion, mate. Honestly thought I'd lose, reading peoples comments.

ANd thanks all for the votes.