If you strongly feel it would be a draw, as most of the other voters are, then level it up. It's 7-6 to my favour right now, so vote for Skizzo. If not then, save your vote and then come back later to level it up, as the score won't always stay like this.Tempted to vote on several occasions since yesterday, but just can't get myself to click the button, especially after reading some of the arguments in this thread. Started off with a slight preference for Joga's team, but the Cruyff/ Keizer duo has proven chemistry, and Johan has full control over the offense. Keep going back and forth all the time, there's absolutely nothing between the teams, both really well crafted units. So it would be rather unfair on my part to favor one manager over the other. Maybe I should flip a coin to decide...
40s Draft R1 : Joga Bonito 8-8 Skizzo/Pat_Mustard | Joga wins on penalties!
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
I'm in the same boat. Sometimes there's some matches where you know you'll have to have some "tricks" ready, but there's no reason a draft match can't be discussed back and forth without screaming and exaggeration about every player and match up.
I did have a few quotes saved away from you praising our players though, just in case
Going by descriptions and tactics, this seems a really, really even game.* Gone for Skizzo though.
*Looked at this yesterday and didn't want to vote, seemed too tight to call, or that I just didn't know enough about both sets of players.
*Looked at this yesterday and didn't want to vote, seemed too tight to call, or that I just didn't know enough about both sets of players.
Be sure to check out their individual write-ups, hyperlinked in the OP.
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Cheers, good post.Any feedback, comments on the teams?
Meanwhile here is more info about Sieloff, which I posted in the main thread, with some additional gifs of his powerful forays forward to better illustrate his playing style.
Klaus-Dieter Sieloff
The old cliche, attack wins games but defense wins championships, couldn't hold truer for the glorious Gladbach side of the late 60s and 70s. With Netzer at the helm, there was absolutely no shortage of goals and free-flowing football, however, the Foals were a notoriously 'leaky' side, without the fortitude and defensive solidity requisite to mount a successful title challenge.
For instance they scored 70 goals in the 1966/67 season (highest alongside Dortmund), 77 goals in 67/68 (highest) and 61 goals in 68/69 (highest alongside Bayern) yet finished 8th, 3rd and 3rd respectively in the league, due to the sheer volume of goals that they tended to concede - 49 goals in 66/67, 45 goals in 67/68 and 46 goals in 68/69. Meanwhile, the championship winning sides conceded 27, 37 and 31 goals respectively, during the very same period.
The Borussia Mönchengladbach manager Weisweiler must have been tearing his hair out in pursuit of a viable solution, and a championship for that matter, for this Netzer-led Gladbach side had all the fire power and quality needed to conquer the bloody Bundesliga. And he eventually found the perfect remedy for their defensive maladies. Step up - Klaus-Dieter Sieloff.
With a rock-solid centre-back finally reinforcing the backline, Gladbach's evolution into a title-winning team was now complete. From a porous side which was leaking goals left, right and centre, Gladbach now sported the most miserly defense in the Bundesliga, conceding the least goals in the Bundesliga for the next two title-winning campaigns. A Sieloff marshalled Gladbach defense, conceded a paltry 29 goals in the 69/70 campaign and 35 in the 70/71 campaign on its way to consecutive Bundesligas - in the process, becoming the first ever German side to successfully defend the Bundesliga.
Sieloff received rave reviews for his pivotal role in the transformation of the porous Gladbach defense into a concrete fortress. He was now rated amongst the elite tier of defenders present in the Bundesliga - kicker rated him as the 3rd best defender in 69/70 (behind Beckenbauer and Vogts), 4th in 70/71 (behind Beckenbauer, Vogts and Fichtel) and 3rd in 70/71 (behind Beckenbauer and Fichtel). This in addition to being rated as the best player in Bundesliga by kicker in 1964/65 during his stint at Stuttgart.
Although he didn't get the ample opportunity to exhibit his sizeable talents on the international stage - due to being in direct competition with the likes of Schulz, Schnellinger and Beckenbauer - his iron-willed displays in the Bundesliga and his foremost role in the Foals title charges, means Sieloff's legacy couldn't be more secure.
Sieloff was a tremendous libero capable of barnstorming runs forward in a supporting manner to Netzer and his runs were pivotal to contributing to the overall fluidity and movement of the Gladbach side. He had a ferocious shot on him and was a decent passer overall but his ability to intercept passes and burst forward translated to a dangerous counter-attacking threat or quick transitions forward. An ex boxer himself, Sieloff, had great synergy with Netzer and in addition to being rock solid defensively, his talents on the ball were well in line with Gladbach's expansive game play.
Have read the write-ups and it still seems a 50/50 game to me. Everything looks quite balanced, and I might be wrong, but as far as I can see the game would be decided on the effectiveness of Cruyff at one end and Law at the other. Midfields seem roughly on par, I have to look at the defensive write-ups again before I consider a vote switch.
Also, I like Murdoch in midfield for Skizzo -- have seen a few clips of this guy, documentaries on Celtic's EC winning campaign and whatnot. Was an excellent player, second best that side solely because it also contained Jinky Johnson.
No, wasn't asking you to check them out to make you consider changing your vote. Don't change it btw, but just wanted to let you know that the info was available, since you said you didn't know much about the players.
Yeah, that's the right description for Flohe. But that's kinda my problem with him in your side. I'd prefer a more industrious midfielder behind Cruyff with great off the ball movement instead of a rather elegant playmaker, who's mainly useful when he had the ball himself. It somehow bothers me in your team. Flohe never really fit into the fluid German nationalteam sides because of it, even less in a supporting role. Not that he didn't have his bright moments for Germany, of course he had a few. But usually when he himself took control of the game and everyone else started moving to the pace he was setting. A minor issue overall and maybe just a question of preference and not really a flaw. But it's the reason why I voted for Joga instead of abstaining.
Also just another point that I'd like to make is that most of the players have thrived in similar roles to the ones in this set-up. Have already touched upon them in the OP but will just reiterate them but be sure to check out the OP and the individual write-ups as well.
For instance, Gadocha played the creative outside-left role in a 4-3-3 for Poland in the 1974 WC, being part of a great forward trio - with a goalscoring striker in Szarmach and an inside right in Lato. It previously used to be a more complete central forward in Lubanski who unfortunately was injured.
The Fifa technical report had him as one of the most impressive attacking players of the 1974 WC, "giving consistently good displays".
A decent video of his quality crossing and set-piece ability
Law was the complete forward and he played a similar fluid role for Scotland vs England 1967 - a historic victory against England, the World Cup holders - a game which ended England's 19 match unbeaten run. A win against Scotland would have equalled England's highest unbeaten run of 20 games - a run that was coincidentally broken by Scotland's very own Wembley Wizards in 1928. Law has had more impressive games than this one, although he still managed to nab a goal, but his fluidity and interchanging with a fluid forward trio (alongside Wallace and Lennox) was nothing short of brilliant to watch.
Scotland vs England 1967
Byshovets loved playing in a forward trio and was more of a second striker/withdrawn forward than a winger.
A decent compilation vid of Byshovets including his 4 goals at WC 1970
A great match where Belgium simply couldn't cope with Byshovets and had to constantly resort to fouling to stop him.
As I've just touched on a few posts above, Alan Ball played in the RCM/RAM role for England, where his verve, tenacity and skill proved to be a potent cocktail. He was constantly on the move, with the BBC commentator labelling him 'a player in perpetual motion' in the WC final where he won the MOTM, despite Hurst scoring the only ever hat-trick in a WC final and gave one of the greatest LBs ever in Schnellinger, an absolutely torrid time. A fantastic goalscorer as well
Great vid highlighting the goalscoring nous of Ball
Here is Schnellinger being "Boateng-ed" by Ball.
I've already gone in depth about Netzer & the Wimmer duo, a proven parternship for both Gladbach and Germany 1972, playing in a 4-3-3 with usually a more talented yet industrious B2B player (Danner, Hoeness, Kulik etc)
Likewise, Sieloff has played this same exact role for Gladbach (just have a peek at the post that Gio just quoted above). Kappellmann played for the expansive and total footballing side of Bayern, winning several Bundesliga titles and 3 consecutive Champions League title. Not exactly a player on the level of Müller, Beckenbauer or Maier, but no player can be limited or be carried in a total footballing side. Kappellmann was the record transfer for Bayern and particularly saved his best performances for the European Cup (assisting the 2nd goal for Müller in an European Cup final). He was, just like Wimmer, extremely versatile and capable of playing as a wing-forward/midfielder/Full back to a high level. He too would be at ease in this side and in the wing-back role, providing width and thrust down the left hand side.
Reaney played for the notorious Leeds side, but despite their sinister outlook, they were a pretty excellent and open footballing side. Reaney, alongside with Cooper formed an formidable attacking full-back partnership and was capable of providing width with great overlapping runs and quality crosses. However, he was equally capable of playing a reserved role, just as he did with Best to great effect, and he'd be playing the defensive role here - similar to Höttges's role for Germany 1972.
Only Greig didn't play for a overly expansive side, although I could be off here about the Rangers side (perhaps @Gio could provide more valid insight here). Tbf, I was always impressed with the Scottish side of the 60s whenever I watched them, plenty of great footballers and they most certainly played attacking and direct football. Greig was a complete footballer, capable of playing as a DM/LB/CB all to an equally impressive level, and he would fit into this team quite nicely imo.
He was as imposing as he was composed and an excellent defender all round but equally capable of great attacking football and his 120 goals in 755 appearances, despite playing from the back are testament to that. His swashbuckling display at the wing-back position for Scotland, against a formidable Italian vintage in a WC qualifier where he smashed in the winner, is another one of the Scottish classics that Greig took part in, in addition to skippering Scotland to victory over England in the historic encounter in 1967.
A player someone who the Scotland Herald rated as the 8th greatest Scottish player and their best ever defender (although it should have been Hansen in all fairness but Greig does frequently feature in most greatest ever Scottish XIs) and is recognised as the greatest Rangers player of all time by the fans.
To cap off, it's a team where I believe the individual quality and most importantly the tactical synergy, will mesh together really nicely. It's a proven tactical system with great individuals, in addition to proven players playing in familiar roles.
For instance, Gadocha played the creative outside-left role in a 4-3-3 for Poland in the 1974 WC, being part of a great forward trio - with a goalscoring striker in Szarmach and an inside right in Lato. It previously used to be a more complete central forward in Lubanski who unfortunately was injured.
The Fifa technical report had him as one of the most impressive attacking players of the 1974 WC, "giving consistently good displays".
He was capable of stretching play and providing quality wing supply, playing in an expansive side and excelling in a fearsome forward triumvirate.Fifa Technical Report said:
A decent video of his quality crossing and set-piece ability
Law was the complete forward and he played a similar fluid role for Scotland vs England 1967 - a historic victory against England, the World Cup holders - a game which ended England's 19 match unbeaten run. A win against Scotland would have equalled England's highest unbeaten run of 20 games - a run that was coincidentally broken by Scotland's very own Wembley Wizards in 1928. Law has had more impressive games than this one, although he still managed to nab a goal, but his fluidity and interchanging with a fluid forward trio (alongside Wallace and Lennox) was nothing short of brilliant to watch.
Scotland vs England 1967
Byshovets loved playing in a forward trio and was more of a second striker/withdrawn forward than a winger.
He loved attacking from the channels and dropping to the wings occasionally. With the sheer dynamism and interchanging potential that Law offers, Byshovets would be able to showcase his eclectic range of talents here - from dribbling, cutting inside, dropping deep or unleashing fearsome shots into the top corner.Byshovets from a translated Russian article said:
A decent compilation vid of Byshovets including his 4 goals at WC 1970
A great match where Belgium simply couldn't cope with Byshovets and had to constantly resort to fouling to stop him.
As I've just touched on a few posts above, Alan Ball played in the RCM/RAM role for England, where his verve, tenacity and skill proved to be a potent cocktail. He was constantly on the move, with the BBC commentator labelling him 'a player in perpetual motion' in the WC final where he won the MOTM, despite Hurst scoring the only ever hat-trick in a WC final and gave one of the greatest LBs ever in Schnellinger, an absolutely torrid time. A fantastic goalscorer as well
Great vid highlighting the goalscoring nous of Ball
Here is Schnellinger being "Boateng-ed" by Ball.
I've already gone in depth about Netzer & the Wimmer duo, a proven parternship for both Gladbach and Germany 1972, playing in a 4-3-3 with usually a more talented yet industrious B2B player (Danner, Hoeness, Kulik etc)
Likewise, Sieloff has played this same exact role for Gladbach (just have a peek at the post that Gio just quoted above). Kappellmann played for the expansive and total footballing side of Bayern, winning several Bundesliga titles and 3 consecutive Champions League title. Not exactly a player on the level of Müller, Beckenbauer or Maier, but no player can be limited or be carried in a total footballing side. Kappellmann was the record transfer for Bayern and particularly saved his best performances for the European Cup (assisting the 2nd goal for Müller in an European Cup final). He was, just like Wimmer, extremely versatile and capable of playing as a wing-forward/midfielder/Full back to a high level. He too would be at ease in this side and in the wing-back role, providing width and thrust down the left hand side.
Reaney played for the notorious Leeds side, but despite their sinister outlook, they were a pretty excellent and open footballing side. Reaney, alongside with Cooper formed an formidable attacking full-back partnership and was capable of providing width with great overlapping runs and quality crosses. However, he was equally capable of playing a reserved role, just as he did with Best to great effect, and he'd be playing the defensive role here - similar to Höttges's role for Germany 1972.
Only Greig didn't play for a overly expansive side, although I could be off here about the Rangers side (perhaps @Gio could provide more valid insight here). Tbf, I was always impressed with the Scottish side of the 60s whenever I watched them, plenty of great footballers and they most certainly played attacking and direct football. Greig was a complete footballer, capable of playing as a DM/LB/CB all to an equally impressive level, and he would fit into this team quite nicely imo.
He was as imposing as he was composed and an excellent defender all round but equally capable of great attacking football and his 120 goals in 755 appearances, despite playing from the back are testament to that. His swashbuckling display at the wing-back position for Scotland, against a formidable Italian vintage in a WC qualifier where he smashed in the winner, is another one of the Scottish classics that Greig took part in, in addition to skippering Scotland to victory over England in the historic encounter in 1967.
Denis Law said:
A player someone who the Scotland Herald rated as the 8th greatest Scottish player and their best ever defender (although it should have been Hansen in all fairness but Greig does frequently feature in most greatest ever Scottish XIs) and is recognised as the greatest Rangers player of all time by the fans.
To cap off, it's a team where I believe the individual quality and most importantly the tactical synergy, will mesh together really nicely. It's a proven tactical system with great individuals, in addition to proven players playing in familiar roles.
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Just saw this, got up on the wrong side of the bed with a nasty hangover?
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I don't think Morten Olsen seems out of place at all here and I think he will have plenty of chances to make a quick run forward during the game when Law isn't close to him when Joga loses the ball. Which will happen a lot as Law is so dynamic and he'll be everywhere when he's in possession so it will take him some time to get in the correct position in front of Olsen. Those type of forward runs are a bit underrated in these draft, they can lead to great opportunities right away as it causes some chaos and opens up space.
I think both teams would work well and I have no issue with how either team is set up. Don't have enough time to go in depth and vote though.
I think both teams would work well and I have no issue with how either team is set up. Don't have enough time to go in depth and vote though.
Likewise, the same could be applied to Sieloff (who arguably has more tactical freedom in my system) and Cruyff who drops even deeper than Law. Check out the Sieloff gifs in the first page and his sheer pace and power - he was once set to become a boxer and already had 25 matches in the ring by the time he was 14 according to wiki
.Aye, I'd think Olsen would excel in Skizzo's team as well and I don't think anyone has questioned his pedigree or his role. He is a great libero. My only minor criticism was that despite playing a high line and employing an attacking set-up, he couldn't afford to have both wing-backs playing an adventurous game, in addition to Olsen himself pushing forward. Only the Ajax side of 70s was capable of doing that and they had a tremendous and workaholic midfield in Muhren-Haan-Neeskens which enabled them to do so, in addition to the offside traps and immense pressing etc.
Firstly, whilst Skizzo's midfield is pretty talented on the ball, off it it does lack a wee bit dynamism and defensive solidity to carry out such an extreme tactic. If he had Wimmer-Ball behind Flohe, then it could have worked brilliantly imo. Secondly, and most importantly, is the pace of Law-Byshovets-Netzer-Ball-Wimmer in addition to the lethal passing of Netzer on the counter, would have been deadly, as this is an even match with neither side experiencing a significant possession advantage (we both differ on who it is but still, it will be a minor lead at best). Skizzo's team is more than capable of employing such a drastic attacking set-up but just not in this match imo.
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About thirty minutes or so to go and it's 7-8 right now 
.
.Voted for Joga to tie things up, seems fair in a match so closely contested. Good luck in the penalty shootout gents, shame only one side can go through.
Cheers and yes it's a rather shitty first round draw but a fair result imo.
Great game @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard . It's been an enjoyable game with some nice discussions. Good luck with the penalties btw.
Who is up for doing the penalties?
All yours
Sorry lads I missed this. Definitely picked the right draft to skip as I'd be a disaster here. Crazy busy fortnight and I'd only be holding everyone up.
Draw seems a fair result. Two good, well balanced sides and a fine match. If I'd been pushed I might have edged towards Joga's side but there was feck all in it. Good luck for the peno's!
Draw seems a fair result. Two good, well balanced sides and a fine match. If I'd been pushed I might have edged towards Joga's side but there was feck all in it. Good luck for the peno's!
Good thing I logged in late enough to not decide this match. It was already tough enough for me to decide beforehand. Enjoy the drama of the penalties @Joga Bonito and @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard!
P.S.: If no one else wants to do penalties, I'll take care of them. It's better to get them done now before the match starts anyways.
P.S.: If no one else wants to do penalties, I'll take care of them. It's better to get them done now before the match starts anyways.
Yup. I agree that Sieloff would have a good game for the same reasons and it could prove pretty important that both defenses had a libero who would be able to take advantage of the fact that Cruyff/Law would often be out of place. Thought it wasn't too much of a comment for me though as I am not the person to talk about Sieloff.Likewise, the same could be applied to Sieloff (who arguably has more tactical freedom in my system) and Cruyff who drops even deeper than Law. Check out the Sieloff gifs in the first page and his sheer pace and power - he was once set to become a boxer and already had 25 matches in the ring by the time he was 14 according to wiki
Aye, I'd think Olsen would excel in Skizzo's team as well and I don't think anyone has questioned his pedigree or his role. He is a great libero. My only minor criticism was that despite playing a high line and employing an attacking set-up, he couldn't afford to have both wing-backs playing an adventurous game, in addition to Olsen himself pushing forward. Only the Ajax side of 70s was capable of doing that and they had a tremendous and workaholic midfield in Muhren-Haan-Neeskens which enabled them to do so, in addition to the offside traps and immense pressing etc.
Firstly, whilst Skizzo's midfield is pretty talented on the ball, off it it does lack a wee bit dynamism and defensive solidity to carry out such an extreme tactic. If he had Wimmer-Ball behind Flohe, then it could have worked brilliantly imo. Secondly, and most importantly, is the pace of Law-Byshovets-Netzer-Ball-Wimmer in addition to the lethal passing of Netzer on the counter, would have been deadly, as this is an even match with neither side experiencing a significant possession advantage (we both differ on who it is but still, it will be a minor lead at best). Skizzo's team is more than capable of employing such a drastic attacking set-up but just not in this match imo.
Sure, go ahead.
Well, we can't get them done now. I'll do the penalties at half time.
Penalties!! Yay
Sorry @Skizzo, I just got home now. Bad day in office(Yes, I had to go in on a weekend too )
)Sent.
mazhar hasn't been online for quite some time and might not be back soon enough. Anyone else willing to do the penalties?
Sure if he's away I can do them.
I hate penalties.
Sent mine too.
I've had three penalty shoot-outs so far. Somehow won the third one but in my first 2 penalty shootouts, I scored 1 penalty in 10 attempts
.
I've had three penalty shoot-outs so far. Somehow won the third one but in my first 2 penalty shootouts, I scored 1 penalty in 10 attempts
damn, maybe I should have pulled up some scouting reportsSkizzo goes first
Johan Cruyff steps up to show them how it's done, calm and composed he measures his run and picks his spot hitting the ball towards the bottom right corner, the keeper dives ..
and saves!
Skizzo 0-0 Joga
and saves!
Skizzo 0-0 Joga
Joga is sending his ace of spades, Gunter Netzer to take advantage of the early miss. The German goes the same way as Johan..
but the keeper is f*ckin rooted to his spot!
Skizzo 0-1 Joga
but the keeper is f*ckin rooted to his spot!
Skizzo 0-1 Joga
After the early disappointment, Keizer looks to get his team off the mark, and goes to the left..
Nigbur hasn't a clue. Didn't even move.
Skizzo 1-1 Joga
Nigbur hasn't a clue. Didn't even move.
Skizzo 1-1 Joga
With the scores level, Law steps up, will he able to keep his team ahead? He goes to his right,
and so does the keeper to his. No chance saving that.
Skizzo 1-2 Joga
and so does the keeper to his. No chance saving that.
Skizzo 1-2 Joga
Cruyff probably tried this:
but forgot that his teammates aren't allowed to play with him in a penalty shootout.
but forgot that his teammates aren't allowed to play with him in a penalty shootout.
Aldo does the penalties anyways
It's alright, though. I'd have kept it short and sweet myself rather than make it tense and dramatic.
It's alright, though. I'd have kept it short and sweet myself rather than make it tense and dramatic.
Flohe is the next in line for Skizzo to get his team back level, big responsibility resting on his shoulder with this kick,
but Nigbur's stationary skills finally paid off! The ball came right down the middle and right down Nigbur's throat.
Skizzo 1-2 Joga
but Nigbur's stationary skills finally paid off! The ball came right down the middle and right down Nigbur's throat.
Skizzo 1-2 Joga
Sieloff reaches the penalty spot with a nice grin on his face seeing how the other team seems to be trailing behind, while Joga nervously hopes that he doesn't let his overconfidence get the better of him...
The f*cker can't contain himself and takes the weakest shot taken by man straight into the arms of Hellstrom.
Skizzo 1-2 Joga
The f*cker can't contain himself and takes the weakest shot taken by man straight into the arms of Hellstrom.
Skizzo 1-2 Joga