I have now read that the break out was not possible at all. They had no ammo, no transport and no fuel for it. The air drop was something the chief of staff of Goering told Hitler and Goering didn't even know about it then. It was doomed from the beginning once Stalingrad didn't fall.
75 Years Since Hitler's Death
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[LIMMY]Had the pleasure of meeting Adolf Hitler at a charity do once. He was surprisingly down to earth, and VERY funny.[/LIMMY]
Here’s a lecture by Dr. House talking about the “three alibis” (one of them being meddling Hitler) that @Foxbatt is referring to.
I think that was never a narrative that anyone who studies WW2 really took seriously. Hitler's overconfidence in military strategy conquered much of Europe (in large part due to his opponents simply not expecting anyone would take the risks he took) but his hubris and ever growing belief in his own 'genius' led to increasing mistakes and eventual ruin. Germany had some hugely talented modern generals, and some really quite poor ones, but I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Hitler didn't interfere constantly (I haven't read House's books, but I doubt he would make that claim either given the stacks of primary evidence we have of Hitler doing exactly that). We're not just relying on stuff people said after the war, there is huge amounts of written material from the war years in the form of order, diaries and letters.
Not only that, generals probably feared being called 'defeatist' and 'unpatriotic' if they told Hitler "No, that's not a good idea...mein fuhrer."
Yep, that's a great talk.
Here's another good one, about the Fall of France.
And another:
Have you read Beevor's Stalingrad book? It's very good. I think that and the Ardennes book are my favourites of his.
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Not referring to Beevor and the like but I wonder if it's really a good thing for the public to read the work of the most popular historians? I mention this because my reading has included the likes of Starkey, Weir, Montefiore & numerous others, and they (virtually) all seem to be either jaded and idiosyncratic or sensationalist and slapdash...when they're not busy criticising fellow high-profile historians and their theories. I expect them to have their own biases, which is only natural, but I worry that readers like me aren't getting the best popular education available.
That's an interesting observation and question. As a history teacher I tend to err on the side of "if it gets someone to read about history, it's almost always good". But it's definitely not a philosophy without issues. I have Montefiore's Stalin book, and while it's mildly interesting it seems to be written more by the journalist/writer Montefiore than the historian Montefiore.
I haven't read anything from Starkey or Weir, so I can't speak to that.
A case in point: I have the Court of the Red Tsar one. It was so outlandish and grim that, despite thinking the very worst of Stalin and his colleagues, I almost found it unbelievable because of the (dark) comic-like atmosphere SSM's writing created. There was an uncomfortable feeling of panache about the writing - it seemed to me to be more Romantic than serious.
There's also the problem that a lot of historians and historical writers not only have their own biases but also come up with their own sometimes quite outlandish theories or opinions, which they of course put forward as fact. When someone is only reading a couple of books on a subject it can really twist their understanding of events.
Too often used as a selling point (one of Anne Boleyn's biographers, Retha Warnicke, is notorious for this tactic).
This is the point Gantz and House is making. Almost all of the information came from German Generals.
They are not going to say that we lost because we were incompetent. They very conveniently blame Hitler for everything.
There definitely was a lot of finger pointing post war, but there isn't a serious case to suggest Hitler didn't interfere constantly. There's a very good reason why he was moving around his headquarters to be where the German High Command were, and not just sitting back in Berlin throughout the war. He was taking constant meetings with generals, being briefed daily on all German forces down to divisional level (and sometimes lower) and imposing his will on issues a national leader should have had nothing to do with.
I don't think a professor emeritus at the US Army Command and General Staff College is going to say that the what they have been told by the surviving German High Staff Officers is wrong unless it's actually factual. He obviously has got a lot of information from all sources. His book with Gantz gives the instances too where Hitler was not keen but accepted the opinion of the Staff. When they are winning it's the brilliance of the Generals. When they lost its Hitler.
I think you’re trying to make his point bigger than it was ever intended to be to be honest. It’s just not that cut and dried. Hitler got things wrong, his generals got things wrong too. He did micromanage to a compulsive level though, and that caused them a huge number of problems. We can’t just hand-wave that away as ‘the generals were just covering their asses’.
Good point here.
The failure of Barbarossa isn't as sensational as "Hitler's meddling" or "hidden General Staff incompetence" or even "the Soviet General Winter"... it's failure, like so many things in history, falls into the 'boring' cliche of nuance and random combinations of many factors from many different parties all engaging in the same campaign.
Worst history book title ever imo.
I’m switching my answer of why it failed to oil, by the way. They should’ve dove straight towards the Caucuses and the Volga instead of fiddling around up north.Oil’s role is fascinating in this time period overall, including in regards to Japan.
True that.
Oil’s role is fascinating in this time period overall, including in regards to Japan.
Or an awesome Fall Out Boy song title
I'm so old that I had to use google to get this joke.
Still I've now found one of my favourite song titles of all time - I Slept with Someone in Fall Out Boy and All I Got Was This Stupid Song Written About Me
I remember reading a while ago that these higher-up German officials were really focused on their "careers" and bluffed a lot.
I'm glad that Hitler could bring this all together for youI'm so old that I had to use google to get this joke.
Still I've now found one of my favourite song titles of all time - I Slept with Someone in Fall Out Boy and All I Got Was This Stupid Song Written About Me
Is this the VE Day thread?
Got out my grandads medals before and some of the paperwork. Also his brothers who never made it back home.
Such a surreal thing for everyone to go through at home and on the front line. Hopefully we never see the likes again.
Got out my grandads medals before and some of the paperwork. Also his brothers who never made it back home.
Such a surreal thing for everyone to go through at home and on the front line. Hopefully we never see the likes again.
Another good lecture.
Respect to the both of them.
Thanks CR
I think it sad that you have to ask the question ‘is this the VE thread’ and that the only place on this forum that you can post about your brave Grandad is in a thread called 75 years since the death of Hitler. What kind of side show is that? God bless your grandad for giving us the freedom to be so fickle and PC in a place like this.
What the feck is PC about this thread? And if you wanted a VE thread, you could have created it yourself.
Hitler was a great racist monster but a difficult personality. He clashed with Churchill because he shifted very far to the right, eventhough he won the Rhineland in that position. Tough personality? He still won plenty home and nationlevel
Nation
Nation
Nation level
NATIONAL LEVEL
NATIONAL LEVEL
SORRY ITS THE PHONE
Nation
Nation
Nation level
NATIONAL LEVEL
NATIONAL LEVEL
SORRY ITS THE PHONE
Been a while since I read it so I could be wrong but isn’t this the opening to Ian Kershaw’s magisterial Hitler biography?
this is the future PC nazis want
Interesting now the White House says the USA and the UK defeated Nazi Germany.
It's so funny that someone has put a pic of the flag of USSR being put on the Reichstag but with the caption, American soldier put the flag on the Reichstag.
How ignorant can the White House be? No wonder most people think they are a bunch of imbeciles there. They can't even organise a piss up in a pub.
It's so funny that someone has put a pic of the flag of USSR being put on the Reichstag but with the caption, American soldier put the flag on the Reichstag.
How ignorant can the White House be? No wonder most people think they are a bunch of imbeciles there. They can't even organise a piss up in a pub.
"Which country contributed the most to the defeat of Germany in 1945?"
The Cold War really messed with the historiography of WW2.
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