A Look at Goalkeeper Options and Replacing De Gea

Classnordic

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Interesting study, thanks for your work.
Is there an available metric, to measure the difference in mentalities? I understand going for different types of passes, and how press each of them are resistant. Iguess you can look into that, but then that also has to account for their ability to read the game, and instructions etc.
 

redIndianDevil

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How the feck is Kepa is ranked so much higher? He has let in so many soft goals for Chelsea that De Gea would have easily stopped.
 

sifi36

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How the feck is Kepa is ranked so much higher? He has let in so many soft goals for Chelsea that De Gea would have easily stopped.
He’s good at sweeping and passing.

Average on crosses (though there’s no stat for failed cross claims - which would be very likely to result in a big chance and he’d do poorly on that).

Makes a fair number of errors in possession but makes up for it by being involved a lot so lands in the middle for on ball comfort.

His first two seasons at Chelsea he was an awful shot-stopper, amongst the worst in the league, creating a perception that’s he a poor stopper.

This analysis covers the last three seasons and so his first two aren’t included. One he was average, one he didn’t play as he’d been dropped and this season where he’s been pretty good. Only time will tell if this season is his new level or he’s just on a hot streak.
 

Borninthe80ts

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As others have said I appreciate the effort put in and the time taken post creator.

In relation to De Gea, while I respect all he has contributed to the United cause it’s clearly time we invested in a long term goalkeeper. David has always for me been at his best when the team has been under pressure and he could show his natural quick reactions and agility, which unfortunately time has taken its toll on. The most impressive season he probably had came in the middle of our most difficult time as a team and since then when we have tried progressing a system as a team his weaknesses have come to the fore.

Whether he goes this season or next depends on a few factors, finances, availability of others and of course what he wants to do himself. The dream scenario for me is keep him as a top back up for a season or 2 while a younger guy can come in and take the mantle.
 
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Cheimoon

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I've been analysing the goalkeeper data available through FBRef as I think goalkeeping is the easiest of all positions to analyse statistically.

I've taken some of the provided ones and come up with a few transformations to create a list of metrics to score goalkeepers from the top five leagues on their league performances over this season and the previous two to create reasonable size samples.

MetricDefinitionLimitations
Stopped Crosses %Crosses Stopped divided by Crosses FacedDoesn't take into account how "stoppable" a cross is, or failed cross claims
Distance Swept /90Number of sweeping actions multiplied by average sweeping distance, divided by 90s played
Shot StoppingPost-shot xG faced minus goals against, divided by post-shot xG facedFBRef post-shot xG model doesn't take into account shot location or power
Bad Touches /90Miscontrols plus dispossessions per 90 played
Bad Touch RatioMiscontrols plus dispossessions divided by total touches
Outside Area TouchesTouches Outside penalty area divided by total touches
Outside Area Touches /90Touches Outside penalty area per 90 played
Short and Medium Passes /90Somewhat team style dependent
Short and Medium ShareA ratio of short and medium passes relative to total passesSomewhat team style dependent
Short AccuracyCompletion percentage of short passes
Medium AccuracyCompletion percentage of medium passes
Long AccuracyCompletion percentage of long passes
Passing TendanciesAn average of the percentile rank of "Short and Medium Passes /90" and "Short and Medium Share"
Passing AccuracyAn average of the percentile rank of "Short Accuracy", "Medium Accuracy" and "Long Accuracy"
On Ball ComfortAn average of the percentile rank of "Bad Touches /90", "Bad Touch Ratio", "Outside Area Touches" and "Outside Area Touches /90"
CrossesPercentile rank of "Stopped Crosses %"
SweepingPercentile rank of "Distance Swept /90"
Shot StoppingPercentile rank of "Shot Stopping"
OVERALL SCORE UNWEIGHTEDAn Average of each of the six above
OVERALL SCORE WEIGHTEDAs above but each category is weighted by the amount specified

That then gives us the below table for the top 50 overall (Costa is highlighted as he doesn't play in a top five league and thus his data may or may not be comparable):



Lots of names you would expect, but also quite a few that I hadn't heard of: Casteels (contract expires 2024 and valued at 8m Euros on TransferMarkt), Samba (10m Euros) and Diouf (5m Euros) look very well balanced, with none of the six metrics being below average. Diogo Costa, Pau Lopez and to a lesser extent David Raya also look like good options for United.

David De Gea - 78th out of 90 goalkeepers that have played at least 50 games' worth of minutes:



If you're more of a traditionalist and value shot-stopping and command of area uber-alles, quadrupling the weight of those two metrics gives the following top 50



For a visual comparison of some we've been linked to and others we should be considering:



Conclusions
  • David De Gea is either average or poor at everything a goalkeeper is required to do
  • Upgrading on him can be done in an inexpensive manner
  • Obviously scouting/eye-test and personality assessment would also be required before signing any of the above

You can download the Excel file from the link below and add your own weightings for each category in the first sheet ("Scoreboard"), I'd recommend filtering "90s" to at least 30 if not 50 to ensure the goalkeepers being looked at have reasonable sample sizes. The second ("Comparison Charts") allows you to create your own radar comparison chart for up to five of the goalkeepers included in the analysis.

Link to File
Great stuff!

I can't download your Excel file here, but does it contain Anderlecht keeper Bart Verbruggen? He came up in the transfer forum and I don't see him in the tables you posted.
 

sifi36

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Great stuff!

I can't download your Excel file here, but does it contain Anderlecht keeper Bart Verbruggen? He came up in the transfer forum and I don't see him in the tables you posted.
Thank you.

I did think about including Verbruggen but the Belgian league data isn’t available for the more in depth metrics on FBREF so he isn’t included I’m afraid.
 

Sylar

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Great stuff @sifi36 and its great to see in a format like this especially with our keeper compared to the ones around.

I agree with the whole concept that upgrading on our keeper will not be an expensive task as a lot have made out in the DDG performance thread. The notion for me has always been that DDGs shot stopping for a period was strong enough to negate the issues he was weak at (but this also came at a time where we were poor so other parts of the team had more scrutiny)
His weaknesses as a keeper have always been there and never improved. His ability on the ball is one of those things I think hes regressed at, it felt like a strength when he joined with some of his passes and him even doing stuff like cruyff turns in his own box.

I am intrigued to see how United go about this.
 

Cheimoon

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Thank you.

I did think about including Verbruggen but the Belgian league data isn’t available for the more in depth metrics on FBREF so he isn’t included I’m afraid.
Fair enough - thanks.
 

waza7111

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I see a lot of people mentioning Raya but his passing accuracy is only 43%. Also Emi Martinez at 41%.

Neither is good enough.
 
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Amazing thread, and should be stickied at the top of that De Gea renew/sell thread, which we are now 28 pages into and somehow still seeing posts pretending the only issue with DDG is his passing.
 

sifi36

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I see a lot of people mentioning Raya but his passing accuracy is only 43%. Also Emi Martinez at 41%.

Neither is good enough.
That is their percentile rank rather than raw accuracy. Raya completes 98% of short and medium length passes (which is a little on the low side) and around 50% of his longer passes (whilst this is low, Brentford go long more often than many other teams). Both are somewhat punished for playing in teams that go long, more often than some other teams.
 

lex talionis

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Extremely in-depth reporting from the stats team. Well done!

But in any discussion about who to "upgrade" and who not to upgrade, adding a bit of context wouldn't be a colossally bad idea.

Looking at the EPL table (we'll exclude the stats for the cup competitions for now) we see the following:

City -- 92 goals scored, 31 goals conceded over 35 matches played
Arsenal -- 83 goals scored, 42 conceded over 36 matches played
Newcastle -- 63 goals scored, 31 goals conceded over 35 matches played
United 51 -- 51 goals scored, 41 goals conceded over matches played
Liverpool -- 70 goals scored, 42 goals conceded over matches played

I'll stop there.

The goal that I hope most caftards share is that we compete for a PL trophy -- well, actually win the PL trophy but you have to compete for the PL trophy to have a decent shot at winning it. If that's not a safe assumption then I'm not sure what we're doing here. City and Arsenal were the two PL trophy contenders this season and if we're looking for why they're so far ahead of us in the table the answer is easily discerned -- City have scored more well than double the number of goals we've scored and Arsenal have scored just over double the number of goals we've scored. City have conceded only 10 fewer goals than we have and Arsenal have actually conceded 1 more goal than we have.

This thread is about De Gea's stats and how he stacks up against the other top keepers on the planet, but the bottom line is the bottom line and the bottom line is that our defensive performance this season -- even with the abominations of Liverpool, City and Brentford -- is actually pretty respectable; and that our offensive production has been an ongoing abomination since the beginning of the season. Brentford and Fulham have scored more goals than United. Brighton and Spurs have scored significantly more goals than United.

If we want to have any hope of competing for the PL trophy we have to significantly increase our goal production. Unless the proposition here is that De Gea's woefulness cripples our finishing on goal, which would be an insane proposition and thankfully no one is suggesting that, we need to focus on the greatest area of weakness in the squad -- our front line. We not only need one striker, we need two strikers.

If the answer to that is that it would be great to add two strikers, and probably an 8 as well, but that we can't forget about upgrading on De Gea, upgrading on De Gea has to assume a significantly outlay of funds that in reality we're just not going to have this summer. Bringing in two 9s and an 8 is probably going to cost us close to 200m and it's not at all clear that we'll have anywhere close to 200m for the summer transfer spend, even with the rosiest of projections of what we'd get for Maguire and McTominay.

Liverpool and Arsenal have conceded roughly the same number of United has, but no one is even remotely suggesting ditching Alisson (a superior keeper, without question) or Ramsdale (who I seriously doubt anyone here would argue is vastly superior to De Gea) to fix their defensive problems.
 

ArmaDino

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Okay mate. Agree to disagree.
I don't know of a single neutral fan who watched our games against Barca, Sevilla, West Ham, Everton in the FA Cup and thought... "hmm, that looks like a solid keeper that needs to work on his distribution"
 

top1whoisman

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I don't know of a single neutral fan who watched our games against Barca, Sevilla, West Ham, Everton in the FA Cup and thought... "hmm, that looks like a solid keeper that needs to work on his distribution"
I can think of plenty of fans who would point out the hundreds of decent, good & great games he’s played. Yes, even this season.
 

Abraxas

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Outstanding stuff.

I think it demonstrates what was loosely understood with a cursory understanding of some basic statistics and what we see with our eyes. But it takes that to another, more detailed level.

David de Gea is no longer a top keeper and is subpar across most areas of goalkeeping. It really is time to stop repeating clichés about his shot stopping or that he's so good in some areas it compensates, or that there are not many demonstrably better. There are.

Diouf looks very good on the numbers. Plus Costa obviously. They stand out due to age.
 

sifi36

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Extremely in-depth reporting from the stats team. Well done!

But in any discussion about who to "upgrade" and who not to upgrade, adding a bit of context wouldn't be a colossally bad idea.

Looking at the EPL table (we'll exclude the stats for the cup competitions for now) we see the following:

City -- 92 goals scored, 31 goals conceded over 35 matches played
Arsenal -- 83 goals scored, 42 conceded over 36 matches played
Newcastle -- 63 goals scored, 31 goals conceded over 35 matches played
United 51 -- 51 goals scored, 41 goals conceded over matches played
Liverpool -- 70 goals scored, 42 goals conceded over matches played

I'll stop there.

The goal that I hope most caftards share is that we compete for a PL trophy -- well, actually win the PL trophy but you have to compete for the PL trophy to have a decent shot at winning it. If that's not a safe assumption then I'm not sure what we're doing here. City and Arsenal were the two PL trophy contenders this season and if we're looking for why they're so far ahead of us in the table the answer is easily discerned -- City have scored more well than double the number of goals we've scored and Arsenal have scored just over double the number of goals we've scored. City have conceded only 10 fewer goals than we have and Arsenal have actually conceded 1 more goal than we have.

This thread is about De Gea's stats and how he stacks up against the other top keepers on the planet, but the bottom line is the bottom line and the bottom line is that our defensive performance this season -- even with the abominations of Liverpool, City and Brentford -- is actually pretty respectable; and that our offensive production has been an ongoing abomination since the beginning of the season. Brentford and Fulham have scored more goals than United. Brighton and Spurs have scored significantly more goals than United.

If we want to have any hope of competing for the PL trophy we have to significantly increase our goal production. Unless the proposition here is that De Gea's woefulness cripples our finishing on goal, which would be an insane proposition and thankfully no one is suggesting that, we need to focus on the greatest area of weakness in the squad -- our front line. We not only need one striker, we need two strikers.

If the answer to that is that it would be great to add two strikers, and probably an 8 as well, but that we can't forget about upgrading on De Gea, upgrading on De Gea has to assume a significantly outlay of funds that in reality we're just not going to have this summer. Bringing in two 9s and an 8 is probably going to cost us close to 200m and it's not at all clear that we'll have anywhere close to 200m for the summer transfer spend, even with the rosiest of projections of what we'd get for Maguire and McTominay.

Liverpool and Arsenal have conceded roughly the same number of United has, but no one is even remotely suggesting ditching Alisson (a superior keeper, without question) or Ramsdale (who I seriously doubt anyone here would argue is vastly superior to De Gea) to fix their defensive problems.
I’m not sure it was suggested here that replacing De Gea should be instead of buying a striker or midfielder? In any case, I’ll bite. Of course we need to score more goals but, that wouldn’t have got us that many more points this season (Leeds at home, Palace away, Newcastle at home, Chelsea away and maybe Brighton away are the exceptions).

The majority of our many clean sheets this season have had De Gea facing fewer than four shots on target. The reason for those clean sheets was control over the ball.

The “abominations” (which is where we dropped most of our points Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Newcastle, Tottenham away) happened because we didn’t have control of the ball. One of the reasons (but not the only one) why we lacked control, is De Gea hoofing it and turning over possession to the other team around 20 times a game.

Teams that press us high have joy because Dave, AWB, Eriksen and Casemiro cannot play confidently round a press and because Dave can’t pick an accurate long ball over a press to save his life. A right back, midfielder and goalkeeper will resolve our control problem. That will stop the “abominations” making them competitive. A striker helps us turn that competitiveness into wins.
 
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Cheimoon

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If the answer to that is that it would be great to add two strikers, and probably an 8 as well, but that we can't forget about upgrading on De Gea, upgrading on De Gea has to assume a significantly outlay of funds that in reality we're just not going to have this summer. Bringing in two 9s and an 8 is probably going to cost us close to 200m and it's not at all clear that we'll have anywhere close to 200m for the summer transfer spend, even with the rosiest of projections of what we'd get for Maguire and McTominay.

Liverpool and Arsenal have conceded roughly the same number of United has, but no one is even remotely suggesting ditching Alisson (a superior keeper, without question) or Ramsdale (who I seriously doubt anyone here would argue is vastly superior to De Gea) to fix their defensive problems.
@sifi36 already pointed out that getting a better GK isn't just about improving defensive performance, but I'll add that one reason why Alisson (and also Ederson) is considered far superior to De Gea is his sweeper and distribution qualities. Add those qualities, and you can set up the team really differently - as Liverpool did. That has a huge impact on attacking performance.

Further, @sifi36 also mentioned earlier that the stats show that De Gea isn't even a very good 'pure' goalkeeper anymore. De Gea actually ranks lowly in lots of categories, so United's good defensive performance is more due to the overall setup than the specific GK contribution. And that in turn connects to comments made at the start of the thread that there are a lot of goalkeepers with great profiles that would be pretty cheap - under $10M. Under different circumstances, getting one of those might seem risky (as these are relatively 'unproven' GKs), but given that United's GK apparently isn't actually key to United's defensive performance, buying someone like that seems like a clear low-risk/high-(potential-)reward situation. (Plus United anyway appear to intend to keep De Gea on a reduced contract with a performance pay clause, so he isn't gone in case the new buy disappoints.) For that sort of price, you're not really blocking other acquisitions, while potentially making a big step in the overall stylistic transformation.

Seems like a win-win scenario to me.
 

sifi36

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@sifi36 already pointed out that getting a better GK isn't just about improving defensive performance, but I'll add that one reason why Alisson (and also Ederson) is considered far superior to De Gea is his sweeper and distribution qualities. Add those qualities, and you can set up the team really differently - as Liverpool did. That has a huge impact on attacking performance.

Further, @sifi36 also mentioned earlier that the stats show that De Gea isn't even a very good 'pure' goalkeeper anymore. De Gea actually ranks lowly in lots of categories, so United's good defensive performance is more due to the overall setup than the specific GK contribution. And that in turn connects to comments made at the start of the thread that there are a lot of goalkeepers with great profiles that would be pretty cheap - under $10M. Under different circumstances, getting one of those might seem risky (as these are relatively 'unproven' GKs), but given that United's GK apparently isn't actually key to United's defensive performance, buying someone like that seems like a clear low-risk/high-(potential-)reward situation. (Plus United anyway appear to intend to keep De Gea on a reduced contract with a performance pay clause, so he isn't gone in case the new buy disappoints.) For that sort of price, you're not really blocking other acquisitions, while potentially making a big step in the overall stylistic transformation.

Seems like a win-win scenario to me.
Excellent post, I agree with this entirely. Spending less than £10 million on Koen Casteels for example, isn’t going to prevent us from doing other business and if it doesn’t work out, De Gea will still be here to step back in.
 

The Boy

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I've been analysing the goalkeeper data available through FBRef as I think goalkeeping is the easiest of all positions to analyse statistically.

I've taken some of the provided ones and come up with a few transformations to create a list of metrics to score goalkeepers from the top five leagues on their league performances over this season and the previous two to create reasonable size samples.

MetricDefinitionLimitations
Stopped Crosses %Crosses Stopped divided by Crosses FacedDoesn't take into account how "stoppable" a cross is, or failed cross claims
Distance Swept /90Number of sweeping actions multiplied by average sweeping distance, divided by 90s playeddoesn’t take into account failed sweeps which usually result in high scores quality chances
Shot StoppingPost-shot xG faced minus goals against, divided by post-shot xG facedFBRef post-shot xG model doesn't take into account shot location or power
Bad Touches /90Miscontrols plus dispossessions per 90 played
Bad Touch RatioMiscontrols plus dispossessions divided by total touches
Outside Area TouchesTouches Outside penalty area divided by total touches
Outside Area Touches /90Touches Outside penalty area per 90 played
Short and Medium Passes /90Somewhat team style dependent
Short and Medium ShareA ratio of short and medium passes relative to total passesSomewhat team style dependent
Short AccuracyCompletion percentage of short passes
Medium AccuracyCompletion percentage of medium passes
Long AccuracyCompletion percentage of long passes
Passing TendanciesAn average of the percentile rank of "Short and Medium Passes /90" and "Short and Medium Share"
Passing AccuracyAn average of the percentile rank of "Short Accuracy", "Medium Accuracy" and "Long Accuracy"
On Ball ComfortAn average of the percentile rank of "Bad Touches /90", "Bad Touch Ratio", "Outside Area Touches" and "Outside Area Touches /90"
CrossesPercentile rank of "Stopped Crosses %"
SweepingPercentile rank of "Distance Swept /90"
Shot StoppingPercentile rank of "Shot Stopping"
OVERALL SCORE UNWEIGHTEDAn Average of each of the six above
OVERALL SCORE WEIGHTEDAs above but each category is weighted by the amount specified

That then gives us the below table for the top 50 overall (Costa is highlighted as he doesn't play in a top five league and thus his data may or may not be comparable):



Lots of names you would expect, but also quite a few that I hadn't heard of: Casteels (contract expires 2024 and valued at 8m Euros on TransferMarkt), Samba (10m Euros) and Diouf (5m Euros) look very well balanced, with none of the six metrics being below average. Diogo Costa, Pau Lopez and to a lesser extent David Raya also look like good options for United.

David De Gea - 78th out of 90 goalkeepers that have played at least 50 games' worth of minutes:



If you're more of a traditionalist and value shot-stopping and command of area uber-alles, quadrupling the weight of those two metrics gives the following top 50



For a visual comparison of some we've been linked to and others we should be considering:



Conclusions
  • David De Gea is either average or poor at everything a goalkeeper is required to do
  • Upgrading on him can be done in an inexpensive manner
  • Obviously scouting/eye-test and personality assessment would also be required before signing any of the above

You can download the Excel file from the link below and add your own weightings for each category in the first sheet ("Scoreboard"), I'd recommend filtering "90s" to at least 30 if not 50 to ensure the goalkeepers being looked at have reasonable sample sizes. The second ("Comparison Charts") allows you to create your own radar comparison chart for up to five of the goalkeepers included in the analysis.

Link to File
This is fascinating and not just for judging DDG, I can see now clearly in the stats why Sanchez has been dropped for Steele by De Zerbi.
 

Pogue Mahone

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There are many things that have eroded my faith in the footballing operations at the club but this is now at the top of my list. I’ve always thought that goalkeeper and striker are similarly influential. But one is incredibly expensive to replace while the other can be upgraded relatively cheaply. How in the name of all that is holy can any serious club allow a goalkeeper with these sort of stats remain at the club so long, never mind pay him more than any other keeper on the planet? It’s absolutely mind boggling. Straight up negligence.
 

sifi36

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This is fascinating and not just for judging DDG, I can see now clearly in the stats why Sanchez has been dropped for Steele by De Zerbi.
You can’t do what Brighton did to Arsenal last week, or what City did to Madrid last night, without control of the ball. A goalkeeper who is comfortable on the ball and passing is one of the key facets of a team that can maintain control of the ball. It’s one of the reasons why City looked like they had an extra man on the pitch whenever they pressed or were pressed, because of the respective goalkeepers ability or lack of ability to contribute during possession.

You don’t need a great shot-stopper if the other team can’t get on the ball to get shots away. Courtois had an unbelievable shot-stopping game last night and yet he still conceded 4 goals.
 

Pogue Mahone

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You can’t do what Brighton did to Arsenal last week, or what City did to Madrid last night, without control of the ball. A goalkeeper who is comfortable on the ball and passing is one of the key facets of a team that can maintain control of the ball. It’s one of the reasons why City looked like they had an extra man on the pitch whenever they pressed or were pressed, because of the respective goalkeepers ability or lack of ability to contribute during possession.

You don’t need a great shot-stopper if the other team can’t get on the ball to get shots away. Courtois had an unbelievable shot-stopping game last night and yet he still conceded 4 goals.
Plus at the other end Ederson made a couple of the sort of saves that people would use as mitigation for DDG’s awful all round game. The over the top plaudits that DDG has been getting for making saves that even keepers who aren’t known as elite stoppers would regularly make has been one of the more baffling features of his career these last few years.
 

The Boy

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You can’t do what Brighton did to Arsenal last week, or what City did to Madrid last night, without control of the ball. A goalkeeper who is comfortable on the ball and passing is one of the key facets of a team that can maintain control of the ball. It’s one of the reasons why City looked like they had an extra man on the pitch whenever they pressed or were pressed, because of the respective goalkeepers ability or lack of ability to contribute during possession.

You don’t need a great shot-stopper if the other team can’t get on the ball to get shots away. Courtois had an unbelievable shot-stopping game last night and yet he still conceded 4 goals.
You’re absolutely right, I was just thinking that I thought Sanchez was a good distributor of the ball and though Steele looks better I thought it harsh on Sanchez, but the stats say very differently to the eye test!
 

JB7

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Extremely in-depth reporting from the stats team. Well done!

But in any discussion about who to "upgrade" and who not to upgrade, adding a bit of context wouldn't be a colossally bad idea.

Looking at the EPL table (we'll exclude the stats for the cup competitions for now) we see the following:

City -- 92 goals scored, 31 goals conceded over 35 matches played
Arsenal -- 83 goals scored, 42 conceded over 36 matches played
Newcastle -- 63 goals scored, 31 goals conceded over 35 matches played
United 51 -- 51 goals scored, 41 goals conceded over matches played
Liverpool -- 70 goals scored, 42 goals conceded over matches played

I'll stop there.

The goal that I hope most caftards share is that we compete for a PL trophy -- well, actually win the PL trophy but you have to compete for the PL trophy to have a decent shot at winning it. If that's not a safe assumption then I'm not sure what we're doing here. City and Arsenal were the two PL trophy contenders this season and if we're looking for why they're so far ahead of us in the table the answer is easily discerned -- City have scored more well than double the number of goals we've scored and Arsenal have scored just over double the number of goals we've scored. City have conceded only 10 fewer goals than we have and Arsenal have actually conceded 1 more goal than we have.

This thread is about De Gea's stats and how he stacks up against the other top keepers on the planet, but the bottom line is the bottom line and the bottom line is that our defensive performance this season -- even with the abominations of Liverpool, City and Brentford -- is actually pretty respectable; and that our offensive production has been an ongoing abomination since the beginning of the season. Brentford and Fulham have scored more goals than United. Brighton and Spurs have scored significantly more goals than United.

If we want to have any hope of competing for the PL trophy we have to significantly increase our goal production. Unless the proposition here is that De Gea's woefulness cripples our finishing on goal, which would be an insane proposition and thankfully no one is suggesting that, we need to focus on the greatest area of weakness in the squad -- our front line. We not only need one striker, we need two strikers.

If the answer to that is that it would be great to add two strikers, and probably an 8 as well, but that we can't forget about upgrading on De Gea, upgrading on De Gea has to assume a significantly outlay of funds that in reality we're just not going to have this summer. Bringing in two 9s and an 8 is probably going to cost us close to 200m and it's not at all clear that we'll have anywhere close to 200m for the summer transfer spend, even with the rosiest of projections of what we'd get for Maguire and McTominay.

Liverpool and Arsenal have conceded roughly the same number of United has, but no one is even remotely suggesting ditching Alisson (a superior keeper, without question) or Ramsdale (who I seriously doubt anyone here would argue is vastly superior to De Gea) to fix their defensive problems.
While nobody is saying we don't need to sign a striker, it is a lot easier to score goals if you can play football in the opposing half of the pitch, which is something which we will never be able to do consistently with De Gea in goal because of his aversion to leaving his line.

You mention City, Arsenal, Newcastle and Liverpool - and highlight Arsenal and Liverpool - as teams that concede similar amounts to us but score more goals. I think it is reasonable to add Brighton into that list too, given the high quality of their game and them scoring 66 & conceding 45 thus far.

Now which teams do you think play the highest up the pitch? In order, it from highest line down is City, Arsenal, Brighton, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea.

Where are United on that list? 16th (which in fairness is an improvement from a few weeks ago when we were 18th). Only Wolves, Bournemouth, Everton and Forest sit deeper than us on average.

Now which teams average the highest amount of possession? In order, from highest down is City, Liverpool, Brighton, Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Newcastle.

I wonder which of the 10 teams mentioned above goalkeepers average defensive actions are highest? Alisson, Pope, Kepa, Ramsdale, Pickford, Ederson, Henderson, Steele, De Gea, Sa, Sanchez, Neto, Navas. Start to paint a picture of why Brighton dropped Sanchez and why so many Forest fans prefer Henderson to Navas. If we look at that same sample of goalkeepers in terms of defensive actions outside the penalty area, Neto jumps ahead of De Gea; in fact there are only 4 goalkeepers in the entire league that do less work outside their area than De Gea - and one of them has been dropped.

I don't know how much clearer it can be that De Gea's inability to deal with balls over the top of the defence is a huge factor in why our defence sits so deep. Because we sit deep we have to work so much harder to retain possession because our play is stretched, whereas to move forward in Ten Hag's previous styles of play you want to retain possession in a relatively compact space through triangles to invite the press which in turn creates space for the wide attacking players. Which teams tend to score the most goals? The ones that have the most of the ball.

That, coupled with his inability to command his area, possession under pressure, or even seemingly keep shots out at an average rate, means it is imperative we bring in a new first choice goalkeeper if we want to see any improvements - regardless of whether we bring in a striker of not (which we obviously need to).

Just to touch further on the inability to keep possession under pressure; that in itself isn't even the worst thing. It's the kicks out when he is pressed that are horrendous. Keeping possession from long clearances isn't necessarily expected - some goalkeepers like Ramsdale and Raya don't even try to keep possession a lot of the time with their long balls forward - the issue with De Gea is he just kicks a floaty ball straight up in the air which is nearly always won by a centre back and the opposition are back on the attack. Even if we sign a massive 7ft tall striker, those types of clearances are always going to favour the centre back running onto the ball rather than a striker facing his own goal.
 

redIndianDevil

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Excellent post, I agree with this entirely. Spending less than £10 million on Koen Casteels for example, isn’t going to prevent us from doing other business and if it doesn’t work out, De Gea will still be here to step back in.
The problem here is that we assume the price listed on TransferMarkt or whatever is what the actual price is. But the moment we are interested in a player, the price shoots up to 30m - 40m for a player even in the final years of his contract.
 

Amsterdam Devil

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David Raya is the easy option I think. He also knows the PL well which sometimes can be challenging for goalies to adjust to.

I never understood why we let Onana go to Inter for free, he’s doing great there and was a really good goalkeeper at Ajax before that.
 

sifi36

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The problem here is that we assume the price listed on TransferMarkt or whatever is what the actual price is. But the moment we are interested in a player, the price shoots up to 30m - 40m for a player even in the final years of his contract.
Are Wolfsburg in a position to stand in the way of a player who you’d assume would be desperate to come to United? We paid sub £15 million for Telles in a similar situation and age profile.

Goalkeepers are cheap, aside from Alisson and Kepa, none have moved for more than €40 million. Someone like Courtois, who had a massive reputation, went from Chelsea to Madrid for around £30 million. It would be unreasonable to expect more than half that for his 30 year old international backup, coming from an upper mid table German side.
 

redIndianDevil

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You can’t do what Brighton did to Arsenal last week, or what City did to Madrid last night, without control of the ball. A goalkeeper who is comfortable on the ball and passing is one of the key facets of a team that can maintain control of the ball. It’s one of the reasons why City looked like they had an extra man on the pitch whenever they pressed or were pressed, because of the respective goalkeepers ability or lack of ability to contribute during possession.

You don’t need a great shot-stopper if the other team can’t get on the ball to get shots away. Courtois had an unbelievable shot-stopping game last night and yet he still conceded 4 goals.
I disagree. What City did to Madrid was not due to Ederson being so great(that he is) at sweeping. Ederson hardly touched the ball for the first 30 mins. City's pressing was relentless, the City crowd was behind them, first touch passing and movement of City players were on a different scale. All Ederson did was pull off a couple of saves off crazy long distance shots.

I'm not saying there is no need for upgrading on De Gea but just doing that is not going to miraculously improve our possession or passing. The reason we keep dropping deep is not just due to De Gea being uncomfortable on the ball but also due to our outfield players being uncomfortable on the ball facing a high press. If we had the budget sure we can and should upgrade De Gea as well but it should not be at the cost of us signing a central midfielder or a striker.
 

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There are many things that have eroded my faith in the footballing operations at the club but this is now at the top of my list. I’ve always thought that goalkeeper and striker are similarly influential. But one is incredibly expensive to replace while the other can be upgraded relatively cheaply. How in the name of all that is holy can any serious club allow a goalkeeper with these sort of stats remain at the club so long, never mind pay him more than any other keeper on the planet? It’s absolutely mind boggling. Straight up negligence.
To be fair, in our current situation even striker can be upgraded relatively cheaply.

The thing that I think most people would agree on though is that we'll get more bang-for-our-buck with an expensive striker and cheap keeper than we would with an expensive keeper and cheap striker.
 

sifi36

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I disagree. What City did to Madrid was not due to Ederson being so great(that he is) at sweeping. Ederson hardly touched the ball for the first 30 mins. City's pressing was relentless, the City crowd was behind them, first touch passing and movement of City players were on a different scale. All Ederson did was pull off a couple of saves off crazy long distance shots.

I'm not saying there is no need for upgrading on De Gea but just doing that is not going to miraculously improve our possession or passing. The reason we keep dropping deep is not just due to De Gea being uncomfortable on the ball but also due to our outfield players being uncomfortable on the ball facing a high press. If we had the budget sure we can and should upgrade De Gea as well but it should not be at the cost of us signing a central midfielder or a striker.
Part of the reason the City press worked so well was because Courtois couldn’t be the extra man to help break the press. The other reason was high up the City centre backs were during Madrids build up, which is a function of having confidence in a goalkeeper behind them with a high starting position and the ability to sweep a long ball over the top

Madrid tried to press at times, especially in the second half but it looked half-hearted because they were scared to commit the number of players it would take to do so properly. The reason they were scared is because of the threat of being played through or over, which is partly because of Ederson’s ability.

I made it clear in a previous post that De Gea is only part of the problem, alongside our midfield and AWB (when he plays).
 
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Matt007a

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It's very difficult to play a high line when your keeper won't come out and sweep up. It puts a massive doubt in the mind of the CB about whether he can push up or not, especially against a quick striker. It's clear ETH wants to play a higher line but he's stuck in a bit of limbo at the minute because the huge space in behind us isn't protected by the goalkeeper like it needs to be.

On top of that we can't beat the high press because De Gea can't play a pass through the lines, or in fact any pass at all that isn't incredibly basic. How many times do we get undone by teams who press us high and win the ball off our CB, either because De Gea has played them a suicidal pass or because Maguire is Maguire.

Every corner we concede is dropped right on top of the goal because teams know De Gea is terrified of a physical challenge. Just breathe on him and he falls over asking for a foul.

Costa is someone who comes up a lot in the transfer threads and the great analysis in the OP really confirms he's an excellent all rounder. I know he wasn't at his best during the world cup, but look back and try to find a world class goalkeeper of his age. There are very few and most don't really break into the elite bracket until their mid 20s. He would grow into the role and is still improving.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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I’m not sure it was suggested here that replacing De Gea should be instead of buying a striker or midfielder? In any case, I’ll bite. Of course we need to score more goals but, that wouldn’t have got us that many more points this season (Leeds at home, Palace away, Newcastle at home, Chelsea away and maybe Brighton away are the exceptions).

The majority of our many clean sheets this season have had De Gea facing fewer than four shots on target. The reason for those clean sheets was control over the ball.

The “abominations” (which is where we dropped most of our points Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Newcastle, Tottenham away) happened because we didn’t have control of the ball. One of the reasons (but not the only one) why we lacked control, is De Gea hoofing it and turning over possession to the other team around 20 times a game.

Teams that press us high have joy because Dave, AWB, Eriksen and Casemiro cannot play confidently round a press and because Dave can’t pick an accurate long ball over a press to save his life. A right back, midfielder and goalkeeper will resolve our control problem. That will stop the “abominations” making them competitive. A striker helps us turn that competitiveness into wins.
I agree with you, and I will raise you another point, a GK who is competent on the ball will allow us to play players like AWB, because, even players who are weak on the ball can still manage to some extent if they receive accurate passes with the right timing, weight and distance, see Allison or Ederson, when they pass it to the FB or someone else further ahead to beat the press, the recipient isn't Maradona or Zidane trying to control a difficult ball in the air, the pass is accurate enough for anyone to receive, and when Allison or Ederson pull these passes so regularly, it discourages opponents from pushing too hard with their press which in turn makes it easier to control the game and build from the back.
 

redIndianDevil

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Part of the reason the City press worked so well was because Courtois couldn’t be the extra man to help break the press.

Madrid tried to press at times, especially in the second half but it looked half-hearted because they were scared to commit the number of players it would take to do so properly. The reason they were scared is because of the threat of being played through or over, which is partly because of Ederson’s ability.

I made it clear in a previous post that De Gea is only part of the problem, alongside our midfield and AWB (when he plays).
First 30 mins Madrid completed 40 passes. I'm pretty sure half of it was Courtois. The reason Madrid played like that wasn't because of Courtois, it was because their team failed to collectively press City players, they dropped deep and deep and had nowhere else to go. Courtois hardly had space or options to pick passes and Guardiola seems to have solved the problem of getting hit on the counter with long balls by using more centre backs to win long balls back(of course having Ederson helps as well but he wasn't needed yesterday at all). The point I'm trying to make here is few people seem to overestimate what a sweeper keeper can do. We aren't going to magically play like Liverpool or City just by signing a goal.
 

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Not exactly to leap to defence of David, but one stat I think is a bit unfair on him is the "On Ball Comfort" - which is calculated by:

On Ball ComfortAn average of the percentile rank of "Bad Touches /90", "Bad Touch Ratio", "Outside Area Touches" and "Outside Area Touches /90"

So I'd imagine he's being significantly ranked down because he just doesn't touch the ball outside the area... but actually his first touch (Sevilla excluded) and ball control is actually pretty decent. You don't really worry about him controlling a pass going back to him, it's more what he does with it after that.