A quick review of LVG's system

[Gladiator]

Hi folks! Hope all is well. Not been on here for a while as I was finishing up uni. Here is a review I wrote on LVG's system. Hope you enjoy!


With the Dutch manager set to take over Manchester United after the World Cup, United fans will be curious as to what to expect from his philosophy.Watching the Holland v Ghana match over the weekend, we can see what Louis van Gaal has in store for the Dutch. But what does this mean for United? We'll take a look at some general principles illustrated in this match which he may also bring to Manchester United after the World Cup.

Here are the 8 components about van Gaal's system for the Dutch and how it may be useful for United:

1. Tactical fluidity - On Saturday, Holland played a 3-4-3 but depending on the game situations, would fluidly transition to a 5-3-2 or a 3-5-2 which allowed the Dutch to assert their control on the match in different ways.
   
   
2. Energetic and combative engine room - In van Gaal's system, the center midfielders work tirelessly. Pressing the opposition, cutting out attempted passes through midfield and assisting the fullbacks in wide defensive overloads (aka double/triple team). They are very instrumental in forcing the opposition wide and quickly recycling possession when the team is on the offensive. Specifically, the center midfielders always look for a probing pass through the middle but are instructed to the move the ball quickly to either flank to keep the opponent on its toes.
   
   
3. Combination play in central areas - Last season under Moyes, United mainly used the wide areas as the main route and space to create chances for the team. There is no better example than the 81 crosses attempted against Fulham at Old Trafford. van Gaal's system for the Dutch makes use of the wide areas but the end goal is to create openings in central areas. From here, the players look to then exchange quick, neat 1-2 passes with teammates in central spaces to further open up the opposition in an attempt to fashion a shot on goal.
   
   
4. Interchanging creators - An interesting concept which van Gaal seemingly toyed with against Ghana. Sneijder and Robben took turns operating in a central role while van Persie joined the attack from a wide right position. At times, the Ghana defenders were not sure who to pick up because Sneijder/Robben would occupy space between the flank and central midfield (known as halfspace) which meant either the LB,CB or DM had to choose whether or not to close down the player in this space, knowing it would create defensive gaps elsewhere. This is exactly how the Dutch scored their goal has Robben took advantage of this hesitation and combined with Sneijder to setup van Persie with what would be the only goal of the match.
   
   As a reference, United fans can look to how Moyes allowed Mata and Kagawa late in the season to act as a pivoting axis in midfield to create openings on either side of the pitch and help take pressure off Rooney in the 9 role. However, under van Gaal's system, they would be higher up the pitch and interchanging positions in different spaces. Mata & Kagawa interchanged positions as if connected by a horizontal axis across the pitch whereas Sneijder & Robben were more vertical and direct.
   
   
5. Varied offensive transitioning - When the ball is won deep in Holland's own half, offensive transition is focused on maintaining possession leading to a slower buildup out of the back. If the ball is won higher up in their own half or in the opponent's half, players then look for a quick counter. Often times, after winning the ball in these situations, ball is played to furthest forward player whose task is to hold the ball up giving time for support runs from other attackers.
   
   
6. Pressing - The Dutch pressed and harried Ghana's players relentlessly in the opening minutes and hopefully we see a similar tactic when van Gaal arrives. It shifted the momentum of the match in Holland's favor and allowed them to dictate play as Ghana was rattled from the Dutch pressure. The early pressure paid off as it was in this period where Holland scored. The pressing starts with the attackers who attempt to recover possession in high areas and counterattack immediately.
   
   Anytime the Dutch lost possession, one or two players would immediately press the ball carrier while the others cut off passing options. If the opposition found its way past the initial press, de Jong or de Guzman (the 2 CMs that day) would front the attacker to force him to make a decision. If this phase is also bypassed then the players retreat to more organized defensive positions.
   
   
7. Mixed passing style - Although van Gaal's system is focused on good ball circulation and maintaining possession, he does give room for his players to mix it up. There were several times throughout the match where a vertical, over-the-top pass was made to player furthest up the pitch. We should expect to see these type of passes when the opposition chooses to press high as Ghana did in the second half or when there are reduced passing options for the ball carrier. A vertical pass is common way to break a high press and in a few occasions, it led to some good breaks for Holland despite them not capitalizing on such opportunities with a goal.
   
   
8. Good player spacing - The spacing and positional structure of the Dutch players allowed them to move the ball quickly up the pitch and recycle possession effectively. It also led to maintaining a good passing rhythm and tempo which is instrumental in playing an effective passing game. For United, this will be a key component in counterattacks as last season, United scored very few goals from counterattacks and much was due to the players' spacing after recovering possession.

What could this mean for Manchester United?

Well at the very least, we can be certain van Gaal will make sure each player clearly knows their role in his philosophy. Last season, Manchester United looked bereft of ideas when the opposition set their stall out and you wondered how well the players knew their roles from their performances and disjointed attacks. We should expect to see a more cohesive pressing scheme, more sophisticated play in the final third, good balance between attack and defense and hopefully a return to the lightning quick counterattacks United have been known for over the years.

van Gaal also isn't afraid to put players in different positions than what they prefer. Against Ghana, he experimented by using van Persie in a withdrawn right forward role where the Dutch striker assisted Janmaat (right wing-back) in defense and then partnered with Sniejder and Robben in attack. It was similar to how Martinez used Lukaku on the right against Arsenal and surprisingly enough, the impact was very similar too.

So if we see Rooney in midfield next season or wide left, we shouldn't worry. "King Louis" always has a plan and in time, it will be plain for all to see.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Juan't Mata]

Good read. Any thoughts on what system he might employ with our current squad?

 

[psychdelicblues]

van Gaal also isn't afraid to put players in different positions than what they prefer. Against Ghana, he experimented by using van Persie in a withdrawn right forward role where the Dutch striker assisted Janmaat (right wing-back) in defense and then partnered !

Don't think this was by design.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Good read. Any thoughts on what system he might employ with our current squad?

LVG decides the formation/system depending on which players the team has, so predicting which system we will use before the transfer window closes or we land some significant signings will be impossible.

If the CM's he wants are unavailable then we may end up with a completely different formation than if they are.

 

[Mad Winger]

If we only manage to sign one CM(or none!), what do you think will happen then?

1. Cleverley and Fellaini to step up?
2. Carrick, Mata and Kagawa in a 4-3-3 formation?

 

[Stack]

LVG decides the formation/system depending on which players the team has, so predicting which system we will use before the transfer window closes or we land some significant signings will be impossible.

If the CM's he wants are unavailable then we may end up with a completely different formation than if they are.

The formation is not the system. So it is possible to look at how LVG's teams play and come to an understanding of what system he plays.

 

[Gladiator]

Don't think this was by design.

At times he was very deep in their own half doing exactly what LVG described but that's not what I'm talking about. By assisting I mean not leaving Janmaat stranded. van Persie overcompensated in some periods of the game with his defensive contribution. But him being wide right was certainly by design.

 

[Annahnomoss]

The formation is not the system. So it is possible to look at how LVG's teams play and come to an understanding of what system he plays.

That has been done to death though, LVG has an interview where he states himself what his system is and what he wants from his players ideally. 4-2-3-1, with either a shadow-striker or a third midfielder.

Wide wingers who thrive at beating their full-backs and a striker who remains up front all the time.

I don't think it was what he meant though, as like I said that has been done to death.

 

[Gladiator]

The formation is not the system. So it is possible to look at how LVG's teams play and come to an understanding of what system he plays.

Precisely which is what I was trying to achieve with this review

 

[Gladiator]

Good read. Any thoughts on what system he might employ with our current squad?

I'm keeping it general until I watch more Holland games. We will obviously know more when he finally arrives at United but I dont want to make too many conclusions on our squad just yet. It's very possible a few players might leave which could change things as well.

 

[Stack]

Precisely which is what I was trying to achieve with this review

I thought it was a good read.
Im interested to see how Holland react to defending counter attacks, when how and why they press when out of possession. Will they channel opposition attacks infield or out wide. How do they attack, what sorts of things trigger them going long (which you mentioned) what sort of things do they use to trigger when they switch play. Do they use overlaps and if so when and why etc etc.

 

[Trizy]

Good read. I like the idea of pressing and becoming none wing-dependent.

If we only manage to sign one CM(or none!), what do you think will happen then?

I don't think it'll be the end of the world, I think LVG is a brilliant manager and can get the best out of a bad lot. Of course if he wants to win trophies he'll have to sign those players we've needed but I think he could have got top 4 with the squad we have last season.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

#6 The Pressing paragraph is a bit inaccurate.

Van Gaal explained after the match vs. Ghana that he wants the Dutch team to play 'provocating pressing', meaning to sit back and lure the opponent into attacking, after which Holland can hit them on the break. Besides the first 15 minutes the Dutch team did play the provocative pressing like LVG wanted, at the start of the match they simply pressed a lot because they were eager to play. He also said post match that Sneijder played way too high up the pitch to his, and he expects him to play more like a midfielder/from midfield than he did against Ghana.

In the qualifiers, Holland played 4-3-3 and Van Gaal also held a couple of rants about the importance of his favored 'Provocating Pressing', because it is a very effective way to create space on the break and create chances against all opponents. LVG is the only Dutch coach who I've seen putting so much emphasis both in the media and on the pitch on this way of 'pressing'. So that's definitely one aspect of his tactical preferences I very much expect to see being implemented at United next season.

Except for the pressing part I'd say it's a pretty good summary of Louis van Gaal tactics and it is an interesting subject for sure.

 

[Gladiator]

#6 The Pressing paragraph is a bit inaccurate.

Van Gaal explained after the match vs. Ghana that he wants the Dutch team to play 'provocating pressing', meaning to sit back and lure the opponent into attacking, after which Holland can hit them on the break. Besides the first 15 minutes the Dutch team did play the provocative pressing like LVG wanted, at the start of the match they simply pressed a lot because they were eager to play. He also said post match that Sneijder played way too high up the pitch to his, and he expects him to play more like a midfielder/from midfield than he did against Ghana.

In the qualifiers, Holland played 4-3-3 and Van Gaal also held a couple of rants about the importance of his favored 'Provocating Pressing', because it is a very effective way to create space on the break and create chances against all opponents. LVG is the only Dutch coach who I've seen putting so much emphasis both in the media and on the pitch on this way of 'pressing'. So that's definitely one aspect of his tactical preferences I very much expect to see being implemented at United next season.

Except for the pressing part I'd say it's a pretty good summary of Louis van Gaal tactics and it is an interesting subject for sure.

Hi Henrik. Thanks for the clarification. I'll definitely look for this more in future matches.

I didnt really go into detail on the pressing aspect but when I took notes on the game that's what I realized too (luring the opposition into false sense of security, press then counterattack). I chose to focus on the pressing from the initial minutes as that's what stood out to me the most.

However I'm not sure if you noticed but throughout the game, Dutch players had clear instructions to press Ghana players when they turned their back towards field of play and faced their goal or played a backpass and this allowed them to win the ball in higher areas. This was even happening towards the end of the match. It was great to see. So while I agree with you on the "Provocative pressing" aspect, I think how LVG wants his players to pressure the opposition is more nuanced than sitting back and hitting on the break.

 

[Gladiator]

I thought it was a good read.
Im interested to see how Holland react to defending counter attacks, when how and why they press when out of possession. Will they channel opposition attacks infield or out wide. How do they attack, what sorts of things trigger them going long (which you mentioned) what sort of things do they use to trigger when they switch play. Do they use overlaps and if so when and why etc etc.

Cheers!

Against Ghana, they were a bit slow to deal with Ghana's pace at times but because of the defensive shape, there was always someone available to cut out the threat. The 3 CBs never really ventured beyond the halfway line so it gave the other midfielders and attackers some sense of security when they went to attack. Nonetheless, there did seem to be an air of caution about the way Holland attacked and perhaps this is how LVG envisions reaching the right sort of balance within the team.

I'd be happy to answer the how, when and why they press but would prefer to do it over "Conversation" if that's alright with you since it goes in depth and I dont want to eat up the space in the thread.

 

[mazhar13]

One thing I noticed about van Gaal's system is that he strives to create as much space as possible for the attacking players to exploit through the middle. He has stated in the past that he always seeks to create space for his central attacking players to exploit, and we saw this once again against Ghana where the midfield dropped very deep and dragging Ghana's midfield high up the pitch, leaving space for Sneijder, Robben, and van Persie to exploit.

It seems as if van Gaal won't just use width to stretch teams to create space through the middle. He seems like he's flexible enough to even use the central midfielders to create this space and even have a playmaking central defender in his team spot the attacking players.

 

[Gladiator]

@mazhar13 good observations and hopefully we can start to develop a keener sense of this in future holland matches. They definitely had a lot of counterattacking opportunities against Ghana. After the first goal, they seemed satisfied with their work and didn't attack with as much conviction as they started out

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Hi Henrik. Thanks for the clarification. I'll definitely look for this more in future matches.

I didnt really go into detail on the pressing aspect but when I took notes on the game that's what I realized too (luring the opposition into false sense of security, press then counterattack). I chose to focus on the pressing from the initial minutes as that's what stood out to me the most.

However I'm not sure if you noticed but throughout the game, Dutch players had clear instructions to press Ghana players when they turned their back towards field of play and faced their goal or played a backpass and this allowed them to win the ball in higher areas. This was even happening towards the end of the match. It was great to see. So while I agree with you on the "Provocative pressing" aspect, I think how LVG wants his players to pressure the opposition is more nuanced than sitting back and hitting on the break.

Yep, I guess tactically it didn't really go as smoothly as Van Gaal would have wanted it, that's why it looked like that. Although he was happy with the defensive/attacking side (did not give away a single chance/created 3 100% goals). He said that Van Persie worked too hard and chased back while he shouldn't, Janmaat should have played higher leaving Van Persie just to put pressure when there's a realistic chance of winning the ball/pressing back the opponent. So I think it will be a mix between dropping back and luring the opponent, trying to let them make mistakes and sometimes pressuring them fully when there's a good chance of winning the ball.


I actually found a youtube vid referring to the 'Provocating Pressing', called 'provocerende pressie' in Dutch. After 30 seconds or so you will see what the plan is.

 

[mazhar13]

#6 The Pressing paragraph is a bit inaccurate.

Van Gaal explained after the match vs. Ghana that he wants the Dutch team to play 'provocating pressing', meaning to sit back and lure the opponent into attacking, after which Holland can hit them on the break. Besides the first 15 minutes the Dutch team did play the provocative pressing like LVG wanted, at the start of the match they simply pressed a lot because they were eager to play. He also said post match that Sneijder played way too high up the pitch to his, and he expects him to play more like a midfielder/from midfield than he did against Ghana.

In the qualifiers, Holland played 4-3-3 and Van Gaal also held a couple of rants about the importance of his favored 'Provocating Pressing', because it is a very effective way to create space on the break and create chances against all opponents. LVG is the only Dutch coach who I've seen putting so much emphasis both in the media and on the pitch on this way of 'pressing'. So that's definitely one aspect of his tactical preferences I very much expect to see being implemented at United next season.

Except for the pressing part I'd say it's a pretty good summary of Louis van Gaal tactics and it is an interesting subject for sure.

Yes, he does put emphasis on this, but he only does this against teams that sit back and look to break on the counter. He generally likes to force the ball out wide and try to win the ball quickly. Then, once the team wins the ball, he wants his teams to break out, quickly.

Generally, though, van Gaal's opposition tend to sit back as van Gaal's tactics are risky to face head on. Maybe this is the reason van Gaal emphasizes the "provocative pressing" more than anyone else.

 

[Gladiator]

Yep, I guess tactically it didn't really go as smoothly as Van Gaal would have wanted it, that's why it looked like that. Although he was happy with the defensive/attacking side (did not give away a single chance/created 3 100% goals). He said that Van Persie worked too hard and chased back while he shouldn't, Janmaat should have played higher leaving Van Persie just to put pressure when there's a realistic chance of winning the ball/pressing back the opponent. So I think it will be a mix between dropping back and luring the opponent, trying to let them make mistakes and sometimes pressuring them fully when there's a good chance of winning the ball.


I actually found a youtube vid referring to the 'Provocating Pressing', called 'provocerende pressie' in Dutch. After 30 seconds or so you will see what the plan is.

wow that vid was beautiful. Too bad the final pass was off but I liked the wide overload which led to recovering possession and then finding the open man on opposite flank.

and yes I agree, I think it will be a mix. His comments on van Persie make sense since he wasn't very involved offensively as we know he can. I probably need to watch the game again to get a better sense of pressing triggers.

 

[mazhar13]

Yep, I guess tactically it didn't really go as smoothly as Van Gaal would have wanted it, that's why it looked like that. Although he was happy with the defensive/attacking side (did not give away a single chance/created 3 100% goals). He said that Van Persie worked too hard and chased back while he shouldn't, Janmaat should have played higher leaving Van Persie just to put pressure when there's a realistic chance of winning the ball/pressing back the opponent. So I think it will be a mix between dropping back and luring the opponent, trying to let them make mistakes and sometimes pressuring them fully when there's a good chance of winning the ball.


I actually found a youtube vid referring to the 'Provocating Pressing', called 'provocerende pressie' in Dutch. After 30 seconds or so you will see what the plan is.

The bolded part is basically van Gaal's approach. He wants the opposition to play the ball out wide so that they can get choked out there. Then, once the Dutch win the ball, they exploit the spaces that the opposition leave.

By the way, that video is absolutely amazing. It makes me greatly appreciate van Gaal's defending style, and I was very entertained with the way the Oranje choked the opposition out wide.

 

[tombombadil]

That "Provocative Pressing" sounds a lot like what SAF likes to do.

SAF did this often and sometimes the midfield would drop really deep, especially against teams that parked the bus. This was to lure the opponents out and hit them in transition with a quick counter.

United rarely pressed in the opponent's half and always fell back to our own half to build the two banks of four when losing the ball. United would only start pressing when the opponent brought the ball into our own half.

The maximum that United would press is the first 2 or 3 balls after losing possession in order to prevent a counter attack. Then fall back again.

 

[Stack]

Provocative Pressing was one of my topics that I was assessed for on a coaching course. The title was "Setting up defensively witha view to counter attacking" which is basically whats being called provocative pressing, possibly a few subtle differences but essentially very similar.
Counter Attacks are not the result of taking advantage of an oppositions mistake but are a result of setting up the opposition to be vulnerable to a counter attack.

 

[Stack]

That "Provocative Pressing" sounds a lot like what SAF likes to do.

SAF did this often and sometimes the midfield would drop really deep, especially against teams that parked the bus. This was to lure the opponents out and hit them in transition with a quick counter.

United rarely pressed in the opponent's half and always fell back to our own half to build the two banks of four when losing the ball. United would only start pressing when the opponent brought the ball into our own half.

The maximum that United would press is the first 2 or 3 balls after losing possession in order to prevent a counter attack. Then fall back again.

Nice observation.

 

[ThaReaper01]

This is all well and good but I'll believe it when it see it at United. Moyes was very good tactically at Everton but showed little tactical clout whilst at United. Let's remember; van Gaal has players that can play his way in the Holland squad. That may not be the case at United.

 

[tombombadil]

Provocative Pressing was one of my topics that I was assessed for on a coaching course. The title was "Setting up defensively witha view to counter attacking" which is basically whats being called provocative pressing, possibly a few subtle differences but essentially very similar.
Counter Attacks are not the result of taking advantage of an oppositions mistake but are a result of setting up the opposition to be vulnerable to a counter attack.

Wow, you are a certified coach? What credentials? Please do share the stuff you learned there. Would be an eye opener for us. Might be better in separate thread though, unless you're relating to LVG in the explanations.

Nice observation.

Thanks!! It was interesting to read your observations as well. I really want to understand how LvG thinks and plays.

This is all well and good but I'll believe it when it see it at United. Moyes was very good tactically at Everton but showed little tactical clout whilst at United. Let's remember; van Gaal has players that can play his way in the Holland squad. That may not be the case at United.

True, in that LVG might not have the ideal players at his disposal, but LvG has stated that he will tweak his philosophy to match the players at his disposal. E.g. He likes to have a striker and a withdrawn forward in attack. Depending on the quality of players he has, he will tweak both roles. For example, if the withdrawn forward is better at scoring goals, then he plays more as a second striker. If the withdrawn forward is better at creating, then he plays more as a playmaker. If I remember correctly, LvG gave examples of Jari Litmanen and Dennis Bergkamp. Litmanen I think was a better playmaker. Bergkamp I think was better goal scorer. Both played the same withdrawn position but with differing roles. LVG personally prefers to have a playmaker in that position but will adapt.

For me, I hope this flexibility will help mitigate whatever disaster our transfer window might turn out to be.

Expanding on what I've read about LVG in an interview he also mentioned that, assuming a vertical layout with defenders at bottom and attackers on top, he likes to have his players positioned on at least 6 - 8 horizontal lines from the last defender to the last attacker. He believed the more lines, the better.

His explanation was that the more lines there were, the more options for natural triangles the players could create by just standing in position. Less effort needed to create triangles as opposed to a flat 4-4-2, which only had 3 - 4 lines.

This also allowed his players more options to make movements to create even more triangles. E.g. CB going forward or FB going on the overlap. Double triangles easily.

He also emphasized on transitions. There were a few phases in football and he wanted to take advantage of transitions in these phases. or something like that. I don't really remember anymore. I just gave it a quick glance at the time.

 

[Annahnomoss]

This is all well and good but I'll believe it when it see it at United. Moyes was very good tactically at Everton but showed little tactical clout whilst at United. Let's remember; van Gaal has players that can play his way in the Holland squad. That may not be the case at United.

What? LVG has changed his formation and tactics dramatically because Holland didn't have the players to fit in LVG's desired formations.

 

[ThaReaper01]

What? LVG has changed his formation and tactics dramatically because Holland didn't have the players to fit in LVG's desired formations.

And he'll have to do the same at United. Which is why I said discussing his tactics with Holland is fine, but he's unlikely to play the same way with United because of the players at his disposal.

 

[Gladiator]

And he'll have to do the same at United. Which is why I said discussing his tactics with Holland is fine, but he's unlikely to play the same way with United because of the players at his disposal.

That shouldn't be an issue though. van Gaal's philosophy more or less stays the same. How he chooses to apply it through a system/formation/tactics may be different but the end goal is largely the same from what I've observed and read

 

[Stack]

Wow, you are a certified coach? What credentials? Please do share the stuff you learned there. Would be an eye opener for us. Might be better in separate thread though, unless you're relating to LVG in the explanations.

I attempted to do the UEFA badges a few years ago but only got half way through. Its an expensive exercise when living on the other side of the world and only coaching in our local leagues which are mostly amateur. I now coach juniors and youth and in all honesty the longer I have been coaching and the more I go on courses on some levels the less i think i know. Coaching credentials at my level dont really mean a massive amount although the more courses coaches attend the more exposure they end up having to others ideas and thoughts. I had a brief stint coaching in our top league here and did ok but found that coaching seniors is very challenging mentally which i didnt like that much and coaching juniors and youth very rewarding. Seniors are more resistant to changes in playing systems whereas youth are quite happy to try something new however youth level sometimes dont have the skills and technique to make certain tactical plans work so its a juggling act.
The biggest thing I have learned over the years is that teams play better when they have self belief and love their team. (might not be the same at pro level though). I run the football program for a school here and the best team at the school is run by a dad who has never done a coaching course in his life. He has a natural manner about him which means his players love going to training and because of that work hard. I watch his training sessions and can see all the things he is "doing wrong" but he has a happy motivated team that work hard and are currently top of their age group top league in the biggest league in the country. I leave him alone to do his thing, if I tried to change him it would ruin the magic he has.
I dont think my coaching knowledge/experience in all honesty has much depth with respect to Utd tactics etc apart from being able to spot the basics quickly.

 

[ThaReaper01]

That shouldn't be an issue though. van Gaal's philosophy more or less stays the same. How he chooses to apply it through a system/formation/tactics may be different but the end goal is largely the same from what I've observed and read

If this is the case then it's certainly exciting but I was excited about Moyes' alleged fitness and pressing last season, which flopped. Not comparing the two, just saying I'll reserve judgment until I see it in practice.

 

[Gladiator]

The bolded part is basically van Gaal's approach. He wants the opposition to play the ball out wide so that they can get choked out there. Then, once the Dutch win the ball, they exploit the spaces that the opposition leave.

By the way, that video is absolutely amazing. It makes me greatly appreciate van Gaal's defending style, and I was very entertained with the way the Oranje choked the opposition out wide.

Indeed. You can see some similarities in the way Pep's barca defended in these areas too. Pep has gone on record to say the sideline is your friend when it comes to defending and interesting to see it with van Gaal.

It makes sense since LVG was a mentor to Pep. He was LVG's captain and I'm sure you've read how LVG feels about his captains.

 

[Gladiator]

If this is the case then it's certainly exciting but I was excited about Moyes' alleged fitness and pressing last season, which flopped. Not comparing the two, just saying I'll reserve judgment until I see it in practice.

That's completely fair but the key distinction you should draw is Moyes never had the opportunity to work at a big club before United. van Gaal has already been at Ajax, Bayern and Barca. So he has experience of being at these type of clubs and the pressures that come with it. I think he will enjoy it here because unlike Bayern, we dont have someone like a Uli Hoeness who will force transfers on him.

Appointing LVG looks like a return to the SAF type model of management but the club has looked at getting at DOF which I hope we do get at some point. Don't think I've said it on here but I dont hold EW to highest esteem when it comes to transfers.

The other distinction I would make is that although Moyes was good tactically, he was very cautious and favored a more negative approach and that sort of mentality transferred over to the players. What didn't help is we werent getting the desired results and Moyes found it difficult to restore the players confidence. Once that confidence goes, as a manager you're fecked. I don't care how good of a tactician you are.

 

[Stack]

Indeed. You can see some similarities in the way Pep's barca defended in these areas too. Pep has gone on record to say the sideline is your friend when it comes to defending and interesting to see it with van Gaal.

It makes sense since LVG was a mentor to Pep. He was LVG's captain and I'm sure you've read how LVG feels about his captains.

Another good observation. The Italians because they historically have had very good central defenders in general terms prefer to channel the opposition infield when defending. Channeling opposition players wide is something I like because it doesnt give them 2 sides to escape out of. I have never been brave enough to try and channel opposition players into central areas.

 

[Stack]

I wonder if the disaster that was Moyes will in the long run be a blessing in disguise. LVG will be able to change everything at Utd and in doing so some freshness to everyone working at Utd will appear after such a long time with 1 man running it all.

 

[Gladiator]

Another good observation. The Italians because they historically have had very good central defenders in general terms prefer to channel the opposition infield when defending. Channeling opposition players wide is something I like because it doesnt give them 2 sides to escape out of. I have never been brave enough to try and channel opposition players into central areas.

That's a very hard thing to do because there are so many more scenarios which can arise in central areas which are negated simply by the geometry of the wide areas which reduces the angles of gameplay. Perhaps Sacchi found a solution to this when he was at Milan?

Also you made a point about motivation and psychology which I am now realising is a huge, huge proponent of success. I used to get hung up on tactics purely but the psychological side of the game is just as important and Fergie was a true master at it. Watching Simeone's Atletico, that point hit home even more. How they were defending for 70 minutes in that final was incredible to see.

I wonder if the disaster that was Moyes will in the long run be a blessing in disguise. LVG will be able to change everything at Utd and in doing so some freshness to everyone working at Utd will appear after such a long time with 1 man running it all.

@Stack I would hope so. I have no idea who will take over LVG (wouldn be surprised if it's Giggs) but we definitely need a freshening of ideas here and I think LVG will bring that. He seems patient enough to take time in implementing his philosophy so I wouldn't be surprised if we get off to a rocky start but finish the season strong.

 

[Stack]

That's a very hard thing to do because there are so many more scenarios which can arise in central areas which are negated simply by the geometry of the wide areas which reduces the angles of gameplay. Perhaps Sacchi found a solution to this when he was at Milan?

Also you made a point about motivation and psychology which I am now realising is a huge, huge proponent of success. I used to get hung up on tactics purely but the psychological side of the game is just as important and Fergie was a true master at it. Watching Simeone's Atletico, that point hit home even more. How they were defending for 70 minutes in that final was incredible to see.

Yeah the motivation and psychology was something I didnt work on for a long time. Its something I now see and understand to being so important on lots of levels. I wonder if that was one of Moyes biggest failings. If you can get a team to buy in to your ideas and believe what they are working towards they will work harder to make things successful. if you dont get team and player buy in they are simply trying to do their job as professionally as possible.

 

[tombombadil]

I attempted to do the UEFA badges a few years ago but only got half way through. Its an expensive exercise when living on the other side of the world and only coaching in our local leagues which are mostly amateur. I now coach juniors and youth and in all honesty the longer I have been coaching and the more I go on courses on some levels the less i think i know. Coaching credentials at my level dont really mean a massive amount although the more courses coaches attend the more exposure they end up having to others ideas and thoughts. I had a brief stint coaching in our top league here and did ok but found that coaching seniors is very challenging mentally which i didnt like that much and coaching juniors and youth very rewarding. Seniors are more resistant to changes in playing systems whereas youth are quite happy to try something new however youth level sometimes dont have the skills and technique to make certain tactical plans work so its a juggling act.
The biggest thing I have learned over the years is that teams play better when they have self belief and love their team. (might not be the same at pro level though). I run the football program for a school here and the best team at the school is run by a dad who has never done a coaching course in his life. He has a natural manner about him which means his players love going to training and because of that work hard. I watch his training sessions and can see all the things he is "doing wrong" but he has a happy motivated team that work hard and are currently top of their age group top league in the biggest league in the country. I leave him alone to do his thing, if I tried to change him it would ruin the magic he has.
I dont think my coaching knowledge/experience in all honesty has much depth with respect to Utd tactics etc apart from being able to spot the basics quickly.

I see. That's some great insight there.

I especially agree with you on the motivating aspect. Moyes is a good example of how the tactics are useless when your team just isn't invested in you and your plan. That is probably something Moyes will have to learn when dealing with big egos in big teams.

That's completely fair but the key distinction you should draw is Moyes never had the opportunity to work at a big club before United. van Gaal has already been at Ajax, Bayern and Barca. So he has experience of being at these type of clubs and the pressures that come with it. I think he will enjoy it here because unlike Bayern, we dont have someone like a Uli Hoeness who will force transfers on him.

Appointing LVG looks like a return to the SAF type model of management but the club has looked at getting at DOF which I hope we do get at some point. Don't think I've said it on here but I dont hold EW to highest esteem when it comes to transfers.

The other distinction I would make is that although Moyes was good tactically, he was very cautious and favored a more negative approach and that sort of mentality transferred over to the players. What didn't help is we werent getting the desired results and Moyes found it difficult to restore the players confidence. Once that confidence goes, as a manager you're fecked. I don't care how good of a tactician you are.

Haha, yeah I hope they get a DOF as well. I don't really have much faith in EW as well, if the previous transfer windows is anything to go by.

 

[The Mitcher]

That's completely fair but the key distinction you should draw is Moyes never had the opportunity to work at a big club before United. van Gaal has already been at Ajax, Bayern and Barca. So he has experience of being at these type of clubs and the pressures that come with it. I think he will enjoy it here because unlike Bayern, we dont have someone like a Uli Hoeness who will force transfers on him.

Appointing LVG looks like a return to the SAF type model of management but the club has looked at getting at DOF which I hope we do get at some point. Don't think I've said it on here but I dont hold EW to highest esteem when it comes to transfers.

The other distinction I would make is that although Moyes was good tactically, he was very cautious and favored a more negative approach and that sort of mentality transferred over to the players. What didn't help is we werent getting the desired results and Moyes found it difficult to restore the players confidence. Once that confidence goes, as a manager you're fecked. I don't care how good of a tactician you are.

I don't want someone like that guy from Liverpool linked to us, who gets the players for us. I would rather the manager pick the players he wants, and the director negotiates.

 

[Invictus]

Excellent read OP !

Have one question though for anyone interested. I'm given to understand that Van Gaal can use both 3 or 2 central midfielders in his teams. Ideally the 3 are generally a ball winner fulcrum, a box to box and a creative third. But there's not much clarity about the 2.. Which players in our current squad would be suited to a role in a 2 man midfield in his system ? Looking at his Bayern team it had Van Bommel as a quasi ball winner/ box to box and Bastian as the playmaker. Which of the United lot have similar characteristics if he employs a 2 central midfielders system with us ? I presume Carrick would be one, probably the playmaker if we can't make a signing of similar nature. But can he press well enough to earn a starting role ? Also who would the 2nd midfielder be ?