Not at all. Klopp had a proven track record of doing great things in a big league without being in charge of the superpower of that league.
A reminder on Liverpool, Arsenal, City's ascend
- Thread starter Alek M
- Start date
I would have taken Pep and Klopp out of the equation, these guys are a notch above.
As a person who doesn't think highly about Ten Hag's "coaching" ability, I will explain myself.
First of all, it seems like most of our improvement was a result of Rashford&Casemiro purple patch of form that lasted 1 year (for Rashford) and about 6 months (for Casemiro). That pretty much explains last season success (and drop since the Carabao cup).
Secondly, we looked most balanced and all round well-functioning team with Fred in midfield alongside Casemiro. This is how we won against Barca and Newcastle final. Then Eric decided to get rid of Fred as he wanted to chase double #10 system and made Mount his key signing.
This season we made one big change and replaced De Gea with Onana, what resulted in one thing - teams stopped pressing us high, meaning that it's actually MORE DIFFICULT for us to progress the ball as we have to go through packed midfield. This would be funny if it wasn't tragic as we have no idea how to build from the back. Zero. What brings me back to the point that I don't rate Ten Hag coaching.
The Arteta bit is the closest comparison for sure.
After 85 games both had;
Arteta W44 D19 L22.
F141 (same as EtH) A82 GD +59
won FA cup
EtH W52 D10 L23
F141 A101 GD +40
won League cup
If with our new pending structure above and EtH apparent management ability are we expecting him to become as good as Arteta or better if he stays?
he won the FA cup
In terms of results but I believe Arteta was given a lot of slack because they were heading into clear style of play.
Right...but the bottom line is, we look disorganised on the pitch.
We can question the structure of the backroom team, we can question recruitment, we can question the facilities etc....but the fact is that ultimately the manager has 23 international footballers at his disposal and he will be judged on how effectively he can coach them and get them organised on the pitch..
Right now, regardless of whatever else is going on, we look a poorly-coached side.
Nah, they'd see him getting sliced open and have a big raging boner for Emery. Klopp also benefits from top class recruitment at Liverpool. A couple mistakes here and some bad form and there will be a section of impatient united fans going ape shit.
Yes for sure, they were and still are playing more attractive football than us with a clear style of play. The losses although plentiful were by the odd goal bar a couple of games also. Not complete annihilations like 90% of our defeats.
Maybe the OP has slight mistakes, but how can you really compare to and emulate what City have done? They have 115 charges against them, so basically the ones to emulate are Arsenal and Klopp (who had Edwards).
I really don't like our play this season under Ten Hag, but he's also been hit a bit by Murphy's law. Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong. (injuries).
Lesson learned: Have a wide squad for competition.
The worrying part is that with the 3 other squads, you can replace one cog with another similar one in the system. I don't think our style of play really suits that. We have different gameplans when we play McTominay and Amrabat than when it's Eriksen and Casemiro and that affects the team as a whole as there's little continuity and system. I'm not sure EtH sees this, or else he's just being very pragmatical to plaster over the cracks in a desperate injury situation.
Overall we need to have a team where each player on each position has the same characteristics like the next one on the bench if we are to build a system-squad the way Arsenal, City and Liverpool have done.
I really don't like our play this season under Ten Hag, but he's also been hit a bit by Murphy's law. Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong. (injuries).
Lesson learned: Have a wide squad for competition.
The worrying part is that with the 3 other squads, you can replace one cog with another similar one in the system. I don't think our style of play really suits that. We have different gameplans when we play McTominay and Amrabat than when it's Eriksen and Casemiro and that affects the team as a whole as there's little continuity and system. I'm not sure EtH sees this, or else he's just being very pragmatical to plaster over the cracks in a desperate injury situation.
Overall we need to have a team where each player on each position has the same characteristics like the next one on the bench if we are to build a system-squad the way Arsenal, City and Liverpool have done.
He won the FA cup, whether he is a great manager or not remains to be seen
This is false, Arsenal were not very good attacking wise in his first 2 seasons and the style was nothing like it is today. First and foremost they tried to defend and be compact and he didn't always get that right either. A lot of it was personnel, where Arteta got credit was that he stopped relying on older players who were obviously not good enough and promoted youth
No one has forced him to play one holding midfield player who gets overrun every game or to play out from the back with players incapable of it. Play to players strengths and availability and set up a team to be difficult to beat especially when your team struggles to take its chances, has injuries or cannot play your one and only brand of football.
You can’t lose heavily all the time and just use excuses of injuries and players not performing. Why is he not being held accountable for stuff 90% of us on here can see what will and inevitably does go wrong in our games.
I’d be much more behind him if I see something different but it is rinse and repeat every single game.
There's a lot of hindsight to that assessment. During Arsenal's poor run of form, they were defensive and ranked horrendously in attacking 'stats,' they weren't playing the football they play now.
This. Arsenal fans were complaining about the football they played, not holding it up as a sign of hope.
You could see what Pep and Klopp were building from the start. Less clear with Arteta but by his third season you could see solid possession football begin to take shape. Still a gamble from Arsenal not to sack him at the end of his second season though.
Now, now, now, you with your logic, facts, and actual analysis against some out-of-context stats. How dare you! Do you also watch full games (attend them?!) instead of just skimming through highlights and then getting your impression on forums and Youtube?
I don't know if they were "very good" but the Arsenal fans on this forum used to mention there was clear style of play and belief that what Arteta is doing makes sense, hence he was given more time for his "project". So, not really any similarities to Ten Hag.
It amuses me how everyone on here was such a visonary regarding Klopp and Arteta, and how they "always knew" they were going to be successful.
Not how I remember it. Must've been a different Red Cafe that was absolutely slating the feck out of Klopp, or 'Jurgen Flopp', as he was christened at the time. Saying he had to be sacked if he didn't win the league after several seasons in charge and all that money spent, transfer records being broken. 'Bottling' finals constantly. Specialist in failiure etc.
And as for Arteta, seriously? He got relentlessly ridiculed on here. The absolute state of this place if we ever finished 8th two seasons running
Not how I remember it. Must've been a different Red Cafe that was absolutely slating the feck out of Klopp, or 'Jurgen Flopp', as he was christened at the time. Saying he had to be sacked if he didn't win the league after several seasons in charge and all that money spent, transfer records being broken. 'Bottling' finals constantly. Specialist in failiure etc.
And as for Arteta, seriously? He got relentlessly ridiculed on here. The absolute state of this place if we ever finished 8th two seasons running
That's one difference, Ten Hag is definitely not going defensive with his setup.
You forgot at least 5 transfer windows and 22 personally handpicked players, otherwise he is set for the fall.
And many said there wasn't the same with Ten Hag. Arsenals style of play in the first 18 months amounted to trying to stay compact and counter, which didn't work mainly. They lacked ability to break teams down or sustain possession, bit like United today. Arteta did show some play in spells, but like Ten Hag has at United, unless you yourself saw a clear style of play from Arteta in the first 18 months is better not to try and draw said comparison, because this was highly refuted at the time as it is today with Ten Hag.
For people that say that ETH has not vision.
We outplayed and beat Barcelona last year with pretty much no striker. We outplayed Bayern this season. We have outplayed all of our other UCL opponents, except for some bad luck and leading goals. leaking goals is our problem as I said in my main post.
Our best line up now would be
----------------Hojulun
Garnacho ----------------------Anotony
--------Mount/Eriksen--Bruno
--------------Casemiro------------
Shaw---Marinez--Maguire---AWB/Dalot
We have been without our preferred CM. CDM and CB the whole season. And we have had no LB until few games ago. So yes, it is tough to implement your vision when your have so many key players injured.
Have we improved how to beat the press instead of hoofing the ball like we have seen us do over the last 3-4 meetings with City, LIverpool, Arsenal? Yes? Let's not forget the City game this season? Even game in the first half? That marginal offside would have given us another goal before half time. We played with poise and composure like we have not done for years against a top side. So I can definitely see the progress in the way we are playing. The results are not there, but the style has improved.
We outplayed and beat Barcelona last year with pretty much no striker. We outplayed Bayern this season. We have outplayed all of our other UCL opponents, except for some bad luck and leading goals. leaking goals is our problem as I said in my main post.
Our best line up now would be
----------------Hojulun
Garnacho ----------------------Anotony
--------Mount/Eriksen--Bruno
--------------Casemiro------------
Shaw---Marinez--Maguire---AWB/Dalot
We have been without our preferred CM. CDM and CB the whole season. And we have had no LB until few games ago. So yes, it is tough to implement your vision when your have so many key players injured.
Have we improved how to beat the press instead of hoofing the ball like we have seen us do over the last 3-4 meetings with City, LIverpool, Arsenal? Yes? Let's not forget the City game this season? Even game in the first half? That marginal offside would have given us another goal before half time. We played with poise and composure like we have not done for years against a top side. So I can definitely see the progress in the way we are playing. The results are not there, but the style has improved.
The key difference between Arteta and Ten Hag wasn't Arsenal showing a promising style of play. Because in reality their style of play was heavily criticised by many Arsenal fans during their poor spells, and their underlying xG difference in each of Arteta's first two and a half seasons was worse than ours in ETH's first season.
The difference is that Arsenal improved season on season. At times the improvement was minimal, particularly between his first and second full season, but they didn't take the backward step ETH has this year. Instead their league position and underlying stats gradually trended upwards before making big leaps in the last season and a half.
Klopp similarly improved season on season, though his positive impact on Liverpool's style of play was more immediately apparent than Arteta's regardless.
If you were of a mind to defend ETH, you might argue that our injury crisis in the first half of this season is the primary cause for us taking the step backwards and without that we would have seen the same sort of gradual progress Arsenal saw under Arteta. And that if we give him more time and allow the three of his big signings still outstanding (Martinez, Casemiro, Mount) to return to fitness and bed into the side, we'll see that improvement in the second half of the season. Though personally I'm increasingly sceptical that's the case.
But either way, we definitely shouldn't overplay the idea that Arsenal's signs of improvement were super-evident in their style of play under Arteta. During their bad spells in those early seasons they looked inept and short of ideas/direction.
The difference is that Arsenal improved season on season. At times the improvement was minimal, particularly between his first and second full season, but they didn't take the backward step ETH has this year. Instead their league position and underlying stats gradually trended upwards before making big leaps in the last season and a half.
Klopp similarly improved season on season, though his positive impact on Liverpool's style of play was more immediately apparent than Arteta's regardless.
If you were of a mind to defend ETH, you might argue that our injury crisis in the first half of this season is the primary cause for us taking the step backwards and without that we would have seen the same sort of gradual progress Arsenal saw under Arteta. And that if we give him more time and allow the three of his big signings still outstanding (Martinez, Casemiro, Mount) to return to fitness and bed into the side, we'll see that improvement in the second half of the season. Though personally I'm increasingly sceptical that's the case.
But either way, we definitely shouldn't overplay the idea that Arsenal's signs of improvement were super-evident in their style of play under Arteta. During their bad spells in those early seasons they looked inept and short of ideas/direction.
Klopp didn't really take over a team full of overpaid never beens. He had a poor enough squad, that was a bit unbalanced. But in reality they lucked out with some big sales that allowed them to reinvest well. He's done a great job, but on here he was derided a lot early on, he was playing Caulker up front at one point. But he did have early progress and kept it going upward.It amuses me how everyone on here was such a visonary regarding Klopp and Arteta, and how they "always knew" they were going to be successful.
Not how I remember it. Must've been a different Red Cafe that was absolutely slating the feck out of Klopp, or 'Jurgen Flopp', as he was christened at the time. Saying he had to be sacked if he didn't win the league after several seasons in charge and all that money spent, transfer records being broken. 'Bottling' finals constantly. Specialist in failiure etc.
And as for Arteta, seriously? He got relentlessly ridiculed on here. The absolute state of this place if we ever finished 8th two seasons running
City were building for Pep for 2-3 years before he came in, even then he spent 500m in his first 2 seasons. Everyone knew with him all that money, it was destined to be a successful partnership.
Arteta has taken time to build the squad, they desperately needed a clear out. The club was patient enough to work with him to build a team and get rid of all the wasters. It's been a long road, but they are finally seeing the benefits of long term planning and squad building.
Utd are more or less where Arsenal were when Arteta came in, around the 18 month mark serious questions were being asked of him.
Poch was being talked about as a potential replacement for him at one point too. Here's some stuff from the Arteta thread.
So let's be honest, the people being against ETH were probably agaisnt Arteta, but now say you could see he was building something etc etc.. patience is required at Utd. It's been ten years of crap, the squad is an unbalanced mess. It takes more than 1 man and 18 months to sort that shit out.
Of course that is the main justification why we are doing so poorly is the injuries. How many games have we started with our preferred line up? When we had our run last year, it was when we had a consistent line up. And then we would have poor loses when Casemiro had his red cards. So yes, missing key players impacts our play of style because we do not have Silva, Gundoghan and KDB in our squad.
I can agree that there is no point in firing ETH and getting into another management merry go round, yet. But I think your arguments are pretty poor to be honest.
This is an apt comparison.
So keeping him in the hope he turns out our Arteta? Untill Arteta wins a major trophy with Arsenal I'm not convinced. For now he's in the Poch mould (albeit with a FA cup to his name) which we like to shit on, rightly so.
Both Arteta and Klopp joined their clubs mid season. So given both Pep and EtH got a pre season and Summer Window with each club it's fairer to allow the same with Klopp and Arteta. Therefore it seems more reasonable to compare their 2nd seasons.
Don't really see how you can compare Ten Hag to Klopp or Pep. City cruised through their CL Group stage and had made it to the Quarters of the EFL Cup (they later go on to win this trophy). Meanwhile Liverpool hadn't qualified for Europe but were in the quarters of the EFL Cup (they get knocked out by Southampton in the semis).
Arsenal under Arteta were doing well in Europa easily making it through their group, but get knocked out by City in the quarters of the EFL. I think the Arteta comparison is fair, both teams struggling to score and concede too many. Both losing far too many games. Ten Hag does have higher points in the League but we've also been frankly shambolic in the cups this season.
Manager | PL Games | W | D | L | GF | GA | GD | Pts |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Pep | 16 | 15 | 1 | 0 | 48 | 11 | +37 | 46 |
Klopp | 16 | 10 | 4 | 2 | 40 | 20 | +20 | 34 |
Ten Hag | 16 | 9 | 0 | 7 | 18 | 21 | -3 | 27 |
Arteta | 16 | 6 | 2 | 8 | 16 | 19 | -3 | 20 |
Don't really see how you can compare Ten Hag to Klopp or Pep. City cruised through their CL Group stage and had made it to the Quarters of the EFL Cup (they later go on to win this trophy). Meanwhile Liverpool hadn't qualified for Europe but were in the quarters of the EFL Cup (they get knocked out by Southampton in the semis).
Arsenal under Arteta were doing well in Europa easily making it through their group, but get knocked out by City in the quarters of the EFL. I think the Arteta comparison is fair, both teams struggling to score and concede too many. Both losing far too many games. Ten Hag does have higher points in the League but we've also been frankly shambolic in the cups this season.
The comparison of Pep is that he best manager in the world took a bit to get going.
Klopp took a while to get the team competitive in the EPL. Took several season and a world record for a defender to get this team stabilized. And he got a nice trio of attackers up front. But in the early years, there were doubters that his Heavy Metak football would not work.
Arteta is for sure the more similar comparison, where ETH and Arteta are rebuilding the club, not only the team. The philosophy and the mindset of the players and the staff, and everyone involved in the club. Edu helped. Proper scouting helped with Edu really doing that job and letting Arteta coach.
While I think that Arteta's initial few seasons are a far better comparison with ten Hag's (there are very little comparison with Klopp's first few seasons, and none with Pep's), the main difference is that Arteta is a rookie manager, Arsenal's is his first managerial job, so it is expected that he would be learning in a job. That should not be the case for an experienced manager like ten Hag.
For context, there is more difference in age between Arteta and ten Hag than between ten Hag and Ancelotti. So ten Hag is basically what you get, he is not gonna get much better, he is a 'finished product'.
For context, there is more difference in age between Arteta and ten Hag than between ten Hag and Ancelotti. So ten Hag is basically what you get, he is not gonna get much better, he is a 'finished product'.
He spent roughly £150M in his first 3 windows, but they recouped nearly 2/3 of their spend over the same period. Their net spend over his first 3 windows comes out to around £50M
Agreed. There's no point changing manager until the footballing side of things is fixed and recruitment sorted.
It took one season.
In his first full season he finished 2 points behind 3rd place. In his second full season he finished 2 points behind 3rd place. In his 3rd full season he finished 2nd. The only time Liverpool looked vulnerable under Klopp was when he took over. In his first full season 16/17 Liverpool only lost 6 times and managed 78 goals. It's just not comparable to where we're at now.
Arteta certainly did a good job to last given his early form. But this should not be a blueprint that every club follows, we do this with all of our Managers. Moyes despite his disaster had the same argument, "he's just taken over Sir Alex, give him time and allow him to shape the club", "LvG is an experienced coach with an amazing CV, give him time!!" etc etc
For every Arteta that works there are countless examples of Managers that didn't work out. We shouldn't put our blind faith in every Manager that gets appointed because that's ultimately what you're doing right now. You're hoping he succeeds based on very little evidence.
Agree with this. Expectations were different and the Arsenal hierarchy were probably already braced for a bumpy ride. The other key point of comparison or progress would be squad recomposition. Arsenal were clearing out older deadwood and bedding in younger players on cheaper contracts, so that the squad could congeal. With such intentional squad construction, the natural expectation is that there would be bumps along the road as these younger players develop their games and find their way. They were delaying near term gratification to reap longer term dividends.
One saving grace for ten Hag could be if the likes of Garnacho, Mainoo and Holjund emerge as consistent fixtures in the team and clear centerpieces of a future squad. This is another way, distinct from results or performances, that you could start to "see something developing". Future transfers would need to match this vision though, otherwise it would just reinforce the sense that he really has no plan or vision other than survival. Expectations are different, so I'm not sure he would ever have been granted the luxury of approaching squad building with the long view in mind, but as it stands, there is not much in the way of hope or clarity in this regard either.
People are clowning on you OP, but I think you have a point.
Klopp's Liverpool was entertaining to watch for neutrals kind of like Ange's Spurs is now, but they didn't become a "proper" football team until almost 3 years in. And that was after breaking the transfer record for both a defender and a goalkeeper and the club competently giving him Salah, even though he wanted someone else. In other words, one of the best managers in the game still needed a lot of time, money and the club taking charge over some key transfers. The end result was extremely good of course, but it didn't happen overnight.
Arteta is overrated in my opinion.
Klopp's Liverpool was entertaining to watch for neutrals kind of like Ange's Spurs is now, but they didn't become a "proper" football team until almost 3 years in. And that was after breaking the transfer record for both a defender and a goalkeeper and the club competently giving him Salah, even though he wanted someone else. In other words, one of the best managers in the game still needed a lot of time, money and the club taking charge over some key transfers. The end result was extremely good of course, but it didn't happen overnight.
Arteta is overrated in my opinion.
Exactly, Arteta does not get the infancy he had with Arsenal at any elite club across European competition. He had no managerial experience Erik on the other hand has 11 years of management, therefore he has a far higher demand for accountability.
Arsenal had an identity, during the earlier period of Mikel's management they kept getting caught with their pants down, playing out from the back through a teams press and they got absolutely hammered by the media for it. As time went on he developed the ability to win consecutive games on the bounce.
This aspect alone is what has typified Arteta to be a potentially elite manager, like Klopp / Guardiola they can go on extended runs and he exemplified this from the beginning. The fact that Erik has had a decade worth of managerial experience and is being compared to gratify with a coach in his first ever managerial appointment to gratify poor performance is astounding and if anything it portrays that Arteta has a far higher ceiling than what Eth does.
Would Klopp win the league with these players? No chance
If you're not in the running for trophies, you at least need to be entertaining.
We're neither, with a negative GD, having just lost at home to Bournemouth and it wasn't even an upset.
Not going to win the league for the next few years regardless of who is in charge.
Whether ETH stays or goes Man Utd won't win the league within the next 3 years. One in the next five might happen, but it's going to require a massive overhaul of the playing squad and footballing structure at the club.