A reminder on Liverpool, Arsenal, City's ascend

Alek M

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Liverpool

Klopp joined Liverpool in the begging of 2015-16 season. His major success the second year in charge was to take Liverpool to 4th spot in EPL. The major success in his THIRD year in charge 2017-18 was 4th spot in the EPL.

2014/15 - prior to Klopp 6th
Liverpool finish with Klopp
2015/16 8th
16/17 4th
17/18 4th
18/19 2nd
19/20 1st

Arteta was appointed in 2019.
2018/19 before Arteta 5th
Arsenal finish with Arteta
2019/20 -8th
2020-21- 8th
2021-22 5th
2022-23 2nd!

Pep started at the beginning of the 2015-16 season

City finish before Pep
2015/16 - 4th
City finish with Pep
2016/17 -3rd
2017/18 1st

ETH joined in 2022/23 season

United prior to ETH
2021/22 - 6th
United with ETH
2022/23 - 3rd

So two of these three great manager in their first season the finished worse than the previous season. And two of those got going in their THIRD season. But ok, Let's fire the manager and restart the process. Because a magical manager will make our team EPL title challenger. And there has been some flop buy as well, just like we have Antony (so far). Remember Nicolas Pepe for 88M?

We have been plagued with injuries during this season to critical players such as our starting CB, all LBs, our CDM. We had a CDM play as a LB. No wonder we are leaking goals. How many games have we started with the same 6 in the back?
Our best path forward is a process of rebuilding the team, establishing a proper recruitment and a long term vision for the club. We do not need another stupid reset.
 
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ti vu

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Pep came in 16-17 season. He won PL with record point in his second season. Which club appointed what Pep in winter 2015-2016?

Klopp came in 15-16 season after 8th game without his signings and pre season. He made 2 finals in this season.

Nobody took you serious when you can't even recall very basic info like this. Should we compare to Chelsea whose managers change mid season brought them 3 CL final (won 2), and 1 EL? They had Mourinho, Conte, Ancelotti coming in and won PL in their first season.

What does ETH have any common to Klopp, Pep, Arteta? And not other managers?
 
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DRJosh

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I appreciate the sentiment behind this post but we're actually regressing in terms of performances from last season and we don't have a distinct identity to build on. City, Arsenal and Liverpool were built to a large extent on their manager's tactical mould even when things were going pear shaped
 

Aretak

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Remember Nicolas Pepe for 88M?
I do. I also remember that he was signed by Unai Emery, who was sacked a few months later. Clearly that makes Ten Hag the Emery in this story, so who's going to be the Arteta?
 

ti vu

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Liverpool

Klopp joined Liverpool in the begging of 2015-16 season. His major success the second year in charge was to take Liverpool to 4th spot in EPL. The major success in his THIRD year in charge 2017-18 was 4th spot in the EPL.

2014/15 - prior to Klopp 6th
Liverpool finish with Klopp
2015/16 8th
16/17 4th
17/18 4th
18/19 2nd
19/20 1st

Arteta was appointed in 2019.
2018/19 before Arteta 5th
Arsenal finish with Arteta
2019/20 -8th
2020-21- 8th
2021-22 5th
2022-23 2nd!

Pep was appointed in the winter of the 2015-16 season
2014/15 before Pep - 2nd
City finish with Pep
2015/16 - 4th
2016/17 -3rd
2017/18 1st

ETH joined in 2022/23 season

United prior to ETH
2021/22 - 6th
United with ETH
2022/23 - 3rd

So with all of these three great managers, in their first season the finished worse than the previous season. And for all of these managers, they really got going in their THIRD season. But ok, Let's fire the manager and restart the process. Because a magical manager will make our team EPL title challenger. And there has been some flop buy as well, just like we have Antony (so far). Remember Nicolas Pepe for 88M?

We have been plagued with injuries during this season to critical players such as our starting CB, all LBs, our CDM. No wonder we are leaking goals. How many games have we started with the same 6 in the back?
Our best path forward is a process of rebuilding the team, establishing a proper recruitment and a long term vision for the club. We do not need another stupid reset.
Quoted before further editing.
 

daba

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I’m going to back up the OP here. Those arguing that we’ve regressed and don’t have a style of play - my view is a huge reason for this is due to injuries to critical players.

Martinez is arguably are most important player for build up and he’s only played 6 games in all comps all season.

Mainoo in pre-season was looking like our next most important player in the build up. He then got injured and only returned a few games ago and has looked good.

LB has been a constant issue with Shaw missing significant parts, Malacia has barely kicked a ball and even the emergency back up Reguilon has missed some games, meaning we’ve had Lindelof and Amrabat taking shifts.

Eriksen’s engine seems to have gone this year, and his replacement Mount has also missed half of our league games this year.

Casemiro who last year played a crucial role in keeping us solid, coming up in important moments with big goals and assist, has now missed half of our games this year.

Amad coming off the back of a fantastic break out season at Sunderland was supposed to come in and challenge Antony but hasn’t kicked a ball.

Antony had his personal issues which seemed to affect him but seems to be improving slightly now. And then there is the Sancho situation.

Add all of this up and it is hardly rocket science to see why we’ve been inconsistent, arguably regressed and haven’t been able to improve our style of play in this first half of the season…

ETH hasn’t been perfect. I’m sure his training may have contributed to some of these injuries, his in-game management and squad selections have been questionable, he hasn’t been able to implement a plan B for us to hold onto leads and now he’s fallen out with a model professional in Varane.

With the injury situation, even if we have a few bad results over the next few weeks I think with the change of ownership still ongoing and the credit he earned last season, he should get time to turn this around until the end of the season.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Did any of those managers have a GD of -3 after 16 league games, scored just 18 league goals in 16 league games and failed to win away from home against any half-decent side throughout their entire tenure(at the equivalent period)?
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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This is how standards erode on here.

The amount of excuses made for this manager is simply astounding.

We have a GD of -3. Minus 3 in 16 league games. That is indefensible no matter how much some of you try to defend it.
 

Alek M

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Pep came in 16-17 season. He won PL with record point in his second season. Which club appointed what Pep in winter 2015-2016?

Klopp came in 15-16 season after 8th game without his signings and pre season. He made 2 finals in this season.

Nobody took you serious when you can't even recall very basic info like this. Should we compare to Chelsea whose managers change mid season brought them 3 CL final (won 2), and 1 EL? They had Mourinho, Conte, Ancelotti coming in and won PL in their first season.

What does ETH have any common to Klopp, Pep, Arteta? And not other managers?
My mistake, Pep was announced in the winter of 2015/16 season but you are right started at the start of the following season. And had a team that had already won the league few years before that.

And we made a final and won in ETHs first year when comparing to Klopp. But don’t think that’s e measure of success.
 

Alek M

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This is how standards erode on here.

The amount of excuses made for this manager is simply astounding.

We have a GD of -3. Minus 3 in 16 league games. That is indefensible no matter how much some of you try to defend it.
Our starting 6 last year was

—————-Casemiro
Shaw Martinez Varane Dalot/AWB
———————De Gea

There is not a single game where out starting defense has played this season. It takes a while to get that defense be on the same page. We have been playing with makeshift defense.

——————-Casemiro
Shaw—Martinez-Maguire- Dalot/AWB
———————Onana
 

berbatrick

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Klopp joined in the middle, not the start of 15-16. They were playing pathetically (league - 8 matches, 3W 2D 3L, on course for a 52 point season, 1.38 ppg, when Brendan got fired) and he got them to the Europa final (knocking out us, Villareal, and Dortmund on the way). Their league form picked up marginally after he joined too (they finished on 60 points, 1.6ppg for Klopp's part). And next season, their league form improved much more dramatically (76 pts, 2ppg, 4th place). At that point, he was in charge for just slightly longer than EtH has been in charge. And in the 3rd season, even though they finished 4th, they also reached the CL final, knocking out City on the way.

I don't even need to say anything about Pep. From the moment the second season started they've been a machine. It's a crazy comparison.

The only one with a similar trajectory is Arteta.
 

sglowrider

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Liverpool

Klopp joined Liverpool in the begging of 2015-16 season. His major success the second year in charge was to take Liverpool to 4th spot in EPL. The major success in his THIRD year in charge 2017-18 was 4th spot in the EPL.

2014/15 - prior to Klopp 6th
Liverpool finish with Klopp
2015/16 8th
16/17 4th
17/18 4th
18/19 2nd
19/20 1st

Arteta was appointed in 2019.
2018/19 before Arteta 5th
Arsenal finish with Arteta
2019/20 -8th
2020-21- 8th
2021-22 5th
2022-23 2nd!

Pep started at the beginning of the 2015-16 season

City finish before Pep
2015/16 - 4th
City finish with Pep
2016/17 -3rd
2017/18 1st

ETH joined in 2022/23 season

United prior to ETH
2021/22 - 6th
United with ETH
2022/23 - 3rd

So two of these three great manager in their first season the finished worse than the previous season. And two of those got going in their THIRD season. But ok, Let's fire the manager and restart the process. Because a magical manager will make our team EPL title challenger. And there has been some flop buy as well, just like we have Antony (so far). Remember Nicolas Pepe for 88M?

We have been plagued with injuries during this season to critical players such as our starting CB, all LBs, our CDM. We had a CDM play as a LB. No wonder we are leaking goals. How many games have we started with the same 6 in the back?
Our best path forward is a process of rebuilding the team, establishing a proper recruitment and a long term vision for the club. We do not need another stupid reset.
Rebuilding? We brought in 11 new players in the last 2 summers -- and mainly players that ETH knew/wanted. The board cannot be caused of not being supportive.


Yet we have regressed.
 

bond19821982

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Keep ETH until end of season and see where it takes us. Sacking middle of season won't help us get anywhere .

So if we don't improve performance wise despite our returning players, replace him. If we see some progress, keep him. That's my take on this.
 

RedBanker

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FYI Bayern changed managers 8 times in the last 10 years. Top clubs which have standards and accountability have minimal tolerance for decline.

Barcelona have 8 in last 10 years.
Real Madrid had 7

If City and Pool would not have struck gold with Guardiola and Klopp, they too would be changing managers.

You just don't keep a rotting limb in hope that it will heal.

Took this from my post in another thread. But I hope you get the drift.

And please don't compare ETH with Pep and Klopp. Please.
 

Winrar

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The line of thinking that if we put blind faith in a clearly failing manager that he'll become our next SAF needs to stop.

We've looked sorely disjointed in all areas of the pitch in 90% of the games we play. We were just given a footballing lesson by a bottom half side at home. This cannot continue.
 

TheRedHearted

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I’m going to back up the OP here. Those arguing that we’ve regressed and don’t have a style of play - my view is a huge reason for this is due to injuries to critical players.

Martinez is arguably are most important player for build up and he’s only played 6 games in all comps all season.

Mainoo in pre-season was looking like our next most important player in the build up. He then got injured and only returned a few games ago and has looked good.

LB has been a constant issue with Shaw missing significant parts, Malacia has barely kicked a ball and even the emergency back up Reguilon has missed some games, meaning we’ve had Lindelof and Amrabat taking shifts.

Eriksen’s engine seems to have gone this year, and his replacement Mount has also missed half of our league games this year.

Casemiro who last year played a crucial role in keeping us solid, coming up in important moments with big goals and assist, has now missed half of our games this year.

Amad coming off the back of a fantastic break out season at Sunderland was supposed to come in and challenge Antony but hasn’t kicked a ball.

Antony had his personal issues which seemed to affect him but seems to be improving slightly now. And then there is the Sancho situation.

Add all of this up and it is hardly rocket science to see why we’ve been inconsistent, arguably regressed and haven’t been able to improve our style of play in this first half of the season…

ETH hasn’t been perfect. I’m sure his training may have contributed to some of these injuries, his in-game management and squad selections have been questionable, he hasn’t been able to implement a plan B for us to hold onto leads and now he’s fallen out with a model professional in Varane.

With the injury situation, even if we have a few bad results over the next few weeks I think with the change of ownership still ongoing and the credit he earned last season, he should get time to turn this around until the end of the season.
This is a wonderful point of view, we built the starting 11 last season and only squad players we signed then was Malacia as far as I can remember, Amrabat and Mount were meant to be squad options while Hojland was to finish our starting 11. Rashford has been ghastly, to me he’s depressed, McTominay has to be played as a second striker or honestly our main striker, but the fact we’ve won any games is a miracle.
 

TheRedHearted

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FYI Bayern changed managers 8 times in the last 10 years. Top clubs which have standards and accountability have minimal tolerance for decline.

Barcelona have 8 in last 10 years.
Real Madrid had 7

If City and Pool would not have struck gold with Guardiola and Klopp, they too would be changing managers.

You just don't keep a rotting limb in hope that it will heal.

Took this from my post in another thread. But I hope you get the drift.

And please don't compare ETH with Pep and Klopp. Please.
When was the last time Barca won a champions league ? Madrid is a different animal, they can get anyone they want bar Pep cause of his Barcelona ties and supposedly klopp wouldn’t because he believes in “underdogs” is a little insane. Although I figure he would go to Barcelona before them, but come on.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I’m sympathetic to ETH due to the injury situation and the attitude of some of the players but the above seems like an oversimplification. I agree that a case can be made for keeping ETH and Arteta is a solid enough comparison and personally I never saw this improvement at Arsenal coming.

In most other cases though the improvement to the teams by top managers are clearly evident in their football. With Klopp it’s the most obvious I’ve seen. He took over mediocrity and swiftly and progrssively improved their footballing system with alarming efficiency. Even the year they finished 8th you could see where they were headed. Even if he hadn’t won the PL and CL and managed to never fix their defence that summer of Allison (winter break?) / Fabinho / VVD, they’d still be a fantastic attacking team that played cohesive football but were flawed defensively. Pep improved City’s football pretty fast too, and again in that period he was laying the work for the future successes. Albeit his case is different - City were a team that were not long ago champions so it was an improvement rather than a Klopp or Arteta proper build from ground up.

I do think the other clubs are better run than us and we’re quite simply a joke in this regard. We handcuff our managers and make them suffer it out most of the time. Still, I don’t think ETH is doing a good job and deserves to be questioned.

I’d still stick with him till the end of the year as the injury situation has been pure madness and I want to see what he can do with a full team plus possibly a Jan singing or two before we give up.
 

Bertie 2 Hats

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Klopp joined in the middle, not the start of 15-16. They were playing pathetically (league - 8 matches, 3W 2D 3L, on course for a 52 point season, 1.38 ppg, when Brendan got fired) and he got them to the Europa final (knocking out us, Villareal, and Dortmund on the way). Their league form picked up marginally after he joined too (they finished on 60 points, 1.6ppg for Klopp's part). And next season, their league form improved much more dramatically (76 pts, 2ppg, 4th place). At that point, he was in charge for just slightly longer than EtH has been in charge. And in the 3rd season, even though they finished 4th, they also reached the CL final, knocking out City on the way.

I don't even need to say anything about Pep. From the moment the second season started they've been a machine. It's a crazy comparison.

The only one with a similar trajectory is Arteta.
Since when did 8 league games equate to the middle of a 38 game season ? By the way in those 8 matches before Klopp took charge of his first match versus Spurs.. Liverpool had won 3 (Stoke.. Bournemouth & Villa).. drawn 3 (Arsenal..Norwich & Everton).. lost 2 (West Ham and Man United).. However whilst he was in charge he went on to lose 8 of the remaining 30 league games against (Palace.. Newcastle.. Watford.. West Ham.. Man United.. Leicester.. Southampton.. Swansea).. By my reckoning Klopp was in charge for 79% of the league games that season.
 
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Insanity

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We didn't win a single game away at a top nine opponent the entire last season. Won one against the top 10, @Fulham away.

We have bettered that this season and have not won a single game against a top 9 opponent either home or away. The only one we have won against the top 10 is again @Fulham away, who by the way just entered top 10 after their win today.

We have scored 4 goals in a game only once in 54 PL games we have played since the beginning of last season. Opponents have scores 4 or more goals against us 3 times. Lisandro Martinez, without whom our season is apparently stuttering, was part of all the three pastings. He was the starting CB for the 3 defeats at the beginning of the season against Spurs, Brighton and Arsenal.

We have scored at a measly average of 1.4 goals/ game & conceded an average of 1.2 goals/game.

We have lost a staggering 30% of our games in PL since the beginning of last season.

The Klopp and Pep comparisons are stupid as they are arguably the best two managers in the world currently, who had proven their mettle before coming to the League. Also, they were able to implement their style of play pretty quickly and kept adding pieces to their puzzles to finish it in their vision.

Arteta is a more apt comparison, however he also showed a vision from the very beginning and in conjunction with Edu was able to remove the rotten apples and added players that fit his vision; including giving young players a chance. Whereas ETH has added Antony, Malacia, Casemiro, Mount, Onana, Amrabat to our pile of shit. Also, he has shown no vision so far. Instead of building on last season, he has ripped apart that blueprint has decided to go with something completely different this season.

His claim to fame, the league cup win, included wins against Villa, Burnley and Charlton at home in one of the luckiest draws for us in the years. In the semi we faced Forest.

Except Moyes & Ole, we have won a trophy (trophies in case of Jose) under each of our permanent managers. Even in Ole's two full season we made 3 domestic cup semis and were in the semis and the finals (only losing on pens) of Europa in each of those seasons respectively. However, like now, it was clear under those managers too that the team is not going to the top. Despite each of them spending 400m+ (Like ETH), our squad and style of play came nowhere close to challenging for the top honors. Forget top honors, it wasn't something that we could build upon to become a top team under the next manager. Each time we had to rip everything apart and start afresh, like we have to do now.

We simply cannot give this man more money to fulfill a vision which isn't there. Need to part ways as soon as we can, and hopefully, for the nth time work towards building something long term and sustainable.
 
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RedBanker

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When was the last time Barca won a champions league ? Madrid is a different animal, they can get anyone they want bar Pep cause of his Barcelona ties and supposedly klopp wouldn’t because he believes in “underdogs” is a little insane. Although I figure he would go to Barcelona before them, but come on.
Your point being?
 

sglowrider

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We didn't win away a single game away at a top nine opponent the entire last season. Won one against the top 10, @Fulham away.

We have bettered that this season and have not won a single game against a top 9 opponent either home or away. The only one we have won against the top 10 is again @Fulham away, who by the way just entered top 10 after their win today.

We have scored 4 goals in a game only once in 54 PL games we have played since the beginning of last season. Opponents have scores 4 or more goals against us 3 times. Lisandro Martinez, without whom our season is apparently stuttering, was part of all the three pastings. He was the starting CB for the 3 defeats at the beginning of the season against Spurs, Brighton and Arsenal.

We have scored at a measly average of 1.4 goals/ game & conceded an average of 1.2 goals/game.

We have lost a staggering 30% of our games in PL since the beginning of last season.

The Klopp and Pep comparisons are stupid as they are arguably the best two managers in the world currently, who had proven their mettle before coming to the League. Also, they were able to implement their style of play pretty quickly and kept adding pieces to their puzzles to finish it in their vision.

Arteta is a more apt comparison, however he also showed a vision from the very beginning and in conjunction with Edu was able to remove the rotten apples and added players that fit his vision; including giving young players a chance. Whereas ETH has added Antony, Malacia, Casemiro, Mount, Onana, Amrabat to our pile of shit. Also, he has shown no vision so far. Instead of building on last season, he has ripped apart that blueprint has decided to go with something completely different this season.

His claim to fame, the league cup win, included wins against Villa, Burnley and Charlton at home in one of the luckiest draws for us in the years. In the semi we faced Forest.

Except Moyes & Ole, we have won a trophy (trophies in case of Jose) under each of our permanent managers. Even in Ole's two full season we made 3 domestic cup semis and were in the semis and the finals (only losing on pens) of Europa in each of those seasons respectively. However, like now, it was clear under those managers too that the team is not going to the top. Despite each of them spending 400m+ (Like ETH), our squad and style of play came nowhere close to challenging for the top honors. Forget top honors, it wasn't something that we could build upon to become a top team under the next manager. Each time we had to rip everything apart and start afresh, like we have to do now.

We simply cannot give this man more money to fulfill a vision which isn't there. Need to part ways as soon as we can, and hopefully, for the nth time work towards building something long term and sustainable.
Top post.
 

padzilla

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It was pretty clear straightaway that Klopp's Liverpool was going to be a force to be reckoned because of the way they played the game. It was a prime example of results suffering in the short term while the team got to grips with the very clear way he wanted to play football.

The most worrying thing under Ten Hag is that the results are dreadful but the performances are arguably even worse with no clear indication of what style he wants us to play.
 

LARulz

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Injuries yes but there has almost been 0 style of play, or at least consistently. When he had money to bring in some players to help that style he has blown most of it

Klopp and Co get impacted by injuries too and you see B team players but their style doesn't change. For us we barely had a style in the first place
 

Hound Dog

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I don't even need to say anything about Pep. From the moment the second season started they've been a machine. It's a crazy comparison.

Yeah, crazy what happens when you have several star title winning players from before and get to buy a whole new defence and replace your flop keeper with another expensive keeper.

Ge ni us
 

TrebleChamp99

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We didn't win away a single game away at a top nine opponent the entire last season. Won one against the top 10, @Fulham away.

We have bettered that this season and have not won a single game against a top 9 opponent either home or away. The only one we have won against the top 10 is again @Fulham away, who by the way just entered top 10 after their win today.

We have scored 4 goals in a game only once in 54 PL games we have played since the beginning of last season. Opponents have scores 4 or more goals against us 3 times. Lisandro Martinez, without whom our season is apparently stuttering, was part of all the three pastings. He was the starting CB for the 3 defeats at the beginning of the season against Spurs, Brighton and Arsenal.

We have scored at a measly average of 1.4 goals/ game & conceded an average of 1.2 goals/game.

We have lost a staggering 30% of our games in PL since the beginning of last season.

The Klopp and Pep comparisons are stupid as they are arguably the best two managers in the world currently, who had proven their mettle before coming to the League. Also, they were able to implement their style of play pretty quickly and kept adding pieces to their puzzles to finish it in their vision.

Arteta is a more apt comparison, however he also showed a vision from the very beginning and in conjunction with Edu was able to remove the rotten apples and added players that fit his vision; including giving young players a chance. Whereas ETH has added Antony, Malacia, Casemiro, Mount, Onana, Amrabat to our pile of shit. Also, he has shown no vision so far. Instead of building on last season, he has ripped apart that blueprint has decided to go with something completely different this season.

His claim to fame, the league cup win, included wins against Villa, Burnley and Charlton at home in one of the luckiest draws for us in the years. In the semi we faced Forest.

Except Moyes & Ole, we have won a trophy (trophies in case of Jose) under each of our permanent managers. Even in Ole's two full season we made 3 domestic cup semis and were in the semis and the finals (only losing on pens) of Europa in each of those seasons respectively. However, like now, it was clear under those managers too that the team is not going to the top. Despite each of them spending 400m+ (Like ETH), our squad and style of play came nowhere close to challenging for the top honors. Forget top honors, it wasn't something that we could build upon to become a top team under the next manager. Each time we had to rip everything apart and start afresh, like we have to do now.

We simply cannot give this man more money to fulfill a vision which isn't there. Need to part ways as soon as we can, and hopefully, for the nth time work towards building something long term and sustainable.
ETH will get sacked but for none of the reasons you mention. INEOS will simply want their own man and will get rid as soon as convenient. They will have their own sporting project and the manager will fit into it not them bending aoround the manager and tbh that’s how it should be.

I like ETH and I want him to be our manager long term I’ve seen green shoots of what he’s trying o do and I like it a lot. He revolutionised that Ajax side and there’s been little signs on it here and there. The difference is Ajax have a philosophy as a club and a structure that they build towards that he helped define early on.

We don’t have the coaches set up and leadership to drive that at such a big club and I think INOES will come in and look to build that but it will likely be something different to what was at Ajax it will be their own or our own methodology and I don’t think they’ll just go with the ETH way.

Who comes in? No one knows as we don’t know what they are aiming for yet.

Will it be the best young talents in the world for high fees with a talent development manager with a modern focus of play ?

Will it be a system manager based on everyone being able to do everyone else’s roles and signing players for their adaptability?

Will it be highly specialised with specific players for specific positions with rotation in mind and hunting the best in their position?

we’ll see but I think ETH days are sadly numbered.
 

AndySmith1990

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We're in no way comparable to any of them. There's zero progress here. Quite the opposite actually. Anyone with a bit of sense can see we're not going to win the league within the next few seasons if we keep Ten Hag. If you think otherwise I'll genuinely make a bet of any amount with you
 

berbatrick

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Since when did 8 league games equate to the middle of a 38 game season ? By the way in those 8 matches before Klopp took charge of his first match versus Spurs.. Liverpool had won 3 (Stoke.. Bournemouth & Villa).. drawn 3 (Arsenal..Norwich & Everton).. lost 2 (West Ham and Man United).. However whilst he was in charge he went on to lose 8 of the remaining 30 league games against (Palace.. Newcastle.. Watford.. West Ham.. Man United.. Leicester.. Southampton.. Swansea).. By my reckoning Klopp was in charge for 79% of the league games that season.
they still had a lower ppg, and as i said, his run in the europa was something to build from (just like the league and europa runs for us last season).


Yeah, crazy what happens when you have several star title winning players from before and get to buy a whole new defence and replace your flop keeper with another expensive keeper.

Ge ni us
since that isn't going to happen here, why is pep in OP (with a phantom extra season to boot, he wasn't there ins 2015/16 at all)?
 

Zed is not dead

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People are conveniently forgetting how Arteta was mocked in his first seasons because they were playing like shite and lost a lot. The benefit of hindsight is saying « we all saw the plan and progress » is bs, last season from Arsenal took everyone by surprise and was greatly helped by the fact they had only the League to play.

Klopp maybe had a clearer way of playing but people were also very doubtful of how it would translate into success because of how many goals they conceded each game before they spent on Van Dijk. I remember his side getting long periods with very few wins (a quick google search indicates they had a 2 wins in 11 games in 2017, so more than two years after he took over).

They all had question marks over their long term success before they were able to make major adjustments to their teams And started getting consistent performances.

I’m not saying ETH will go the same way, and I wouldn’t care if he’s sacked. But saying that other managers had it going from the start with no blimps in form is simply false.
 

Juicy Juiced

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Its funny how people ignore what Pep and Klopp did before coming to EPL.

Same with Ferguson.
 

YSB99

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Klopp was in charge of Liverpool about 10 games before they went away to Chelsea and City and hammered them 3-1 and 4-1, we’ve seen nothing close to that, you can’t just keep hoping he’ll come good there has to be signs, we can’t beat any top 10 team away from home, we can barely scrape a draw

I remember the 4-1 at City very clearly because it’s what made me start to worry about them for the first time in my lifetime (I’m 32) they thrashed them
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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If the fans can’t be patient with Ten Hag, what coach available right now would the fans have patience for? Cries for the sack will be heard during the inevitable period of struggle.

Flick - “He was shit for Germany and his only success was in Bayern where things are easy there”
De Zerbi - “We saw what happened with Potter, coaching a well structured team like Brighton isn’t the same has coming into this mess”
Xabi Alonso - “Inexperienced. Not ready for a big club “
Conte - “Boring style of play. I want a manager that plays free flowing attacking football”
Ancelotti - “Outdated manager. We need someone more modern”
Emery - “Flopped at Arsenal. Already shown he can’t cut it at a big club

Bar Pep and Klopp, I doubt fans will have patience for whoever manages us when they face challenges
 

Rood

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A focus on Arteta is quite interesting, the other 2 not so much

How did he even survive back to back 8th place finishes? nevermind a 3rd successive failure to qualify for CL in 2022

People are claiming there was some clear plan and progression but really there wasn't (he did win a cup TBF but so has Ten Hag), yet Arteta was backed by the board and given more time to deliver than any of our postFergie managers

Maybe ETHs mistake was to overachieve in his first season, better off being absolutely shite and then the 2nd season looks like progress!
 

VP89

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More than finish they had visible improvement and visible plan.

Ours?
Our plan is visible it's just showing its not implemented well and we are missing key players (either on injury table or needing to he brought in).

Artetas side also looked well shite in year 2.
 

VP89

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Klopp and Co get impacted by injuries too and you see B team players but their style doesn't change. For us we barely had a style in the first place
Thats after 4-5 years in..
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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Did any of those managers have a GD of -3 after 16 league games, scored just 18 league goals in 16 league games and failed to win away from home against any half-decent side throughout their entire tenure(at the equivalent period)?
Shhhh.. We do not talk about all that here. Only league positions can be discussed here, and the injuries (that too only injuries to manutd). Lets wait till we get relegated before we come to any conclusion about ETH.
 

soapythecat

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Pointless argument if you were to watch United play week in, week out.
I remember when Klopp was in season 2 and commenting on here how well they were set up to attack and a few good signings could make them a very good side. The progression and plan was obvious. Same with Arteta but not so clearly defined, but you could see progress.
How anyone could suggest we have shown progress since the cup final is beyond me. We’ve regressed in every department and look hopeless, toothless and weak.
 

Bubz27

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Arteta had Edu. Klopp had Edwards. City had 115 charges (and that Barca team, Txiki and them man).

I don't buy this idea that Ten Hag can't coach properly. There were loads of examples from last season of exciting, quick football with passing from the back through midfield. Not enough goals though, and that is a criticism of him so far.

Much bigger criticisms of his recruitment but that shouldn't be solely on him in the first place.