A United Ireland?

[sullydnl]

One of the perceived outcomes of the general election is that a United Ireland has now become more likely. There is now a majority of nationalist MPs in NI, the demographic shifts seem to lean that way and there may well soon be what many are describing an effective economic border running across the Irish sea. Various political commentators have said a UI now seems increasingly inevitable, with Jonathan Powell (chief British negotiator during the GFA) predicting it will happen within the next ten years.

So, are they right? Will it happen? When will it happen? What would a United Ireland actually look like? Is it even a good idea in the first place?

 

[utdalltheway]

A re-united Ireland.
It was talked about, due to the demographic shift, as happening within 50 years, back in the 1980s.
Brexit may have accelerated the schedule.

Ultimately it could be a good thing, so long as the unionists are on board, peacefully. The Ireland they were afraid to join has changed dramatically so perhaps it’s a possibility now.
The orange and the green, united in peace.

 

[Florida Man]

I don’t have a lot of knowledge of Ireland vs Northern Ireland but I’d like to see it united one day. Personally I’d like to see the UK dismantled and everyone become their own country. Could make for an interesting thread but I’ll leave this comment here because effort.

 

[christy87]

I want to know what happens to unionism, if Scotland breaks the union.

 

[utdalltheway]

Unionism in NI?
Not sure a Scotland break would have any effect on NI, but maybe the better informed here can chime in.

 

[utdalltheway]

I don’t have a lot of knowledge of Ireland vs Northern Ireland but I’d like to see it united one day. Personally I’d like to see the UK dismantled and everyone become their own country. Could make for an interesting thread but I’ll leave this comment here because effort.

I’ve always wondered why the Welsh and Scots stayed down.
Do they have a history of frequent insurrections, like Ireland had?
Of course, having a land border didn’t help their independence case, but still....

 

[AaronRedDevil]

I don't really care about politics or even vote as its pointless to me. But seeing a united Ireland in my lifetime would be brilliant.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

One of the perceived outcomes of the general election is that a United Ireland has now become more likely. There is now a majority of nationalist MPs in NI, the demographic shifts seem to lean that way and there may well soon be what many are describing an effective economic border running across the Irish sea. Various political commentators have said a UI now seems increasingly inevitable, with Jonathan Powell (chief British negotiator during the GFA) predicting it will happen within the next ten years.

So, are they right? Will it happen? When will it happen? What would a United Ireland actually look like? Is it even a good idea in the first place?

Looking at this poll it seems so, if not now, then in the future with the age demographics

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...cording-to-lord-ashcroft-survey-38488280.html

Personally I’d like to see the UK dismantled and everyone become their own country.

Why? They are their own countries anyway, just in a political union with others.

Unionism in NI?
Not sure a Scotland break would have any effect on NI, but maybe the better informed here can chime in.

I'm not sure it would have any real affect personally but I think it unlikely that there will be a Scottish referendum in the next 5 years.

I’ve always wondered why the Welsh and Scots stayed down.
Do they have a history of frequent insurrections, like Ireland had?
Of course, having a land border didn’t help their independence case, but still....

The union of England and Wales is very old and like Scotland their economy is deeply integrated into the United Kingdom, they are loss making as a country and are subsidised by Westminster. They don't have any real crown jewel industries like Scotland do with oil and finance either. Add to that the large English population in Wales and independence there is a minority view.

I think a lot of people are ignorant to the fact that Scotland joined the Union voluntarily after they botched a South American colonisation project left them bankrupt. They joined the Union to get back on their feet and to get in on the British Empire colonisation project. The Scots were actually the most enthusiastic colonisers in the Union, they were massively over-represented in the East India company for example and two Scottish businessmen started the Opium Wars with China that led to the UK acquiring Hong Kong. They were key players at every level of the Empire.

Economically they are more reliant on trade with the UK internal market than the the UK is with the EU, for example. There are numerous big issues with disentangling from the UK union which is why they voted to remain a part of it previously.

I‘d also argue that the idea that Scotland have been kept ‘down’ by joining the Union is false. You can argue that by joining the union they became one of the most disproportionately powerful and influential nations in history.

 

[diarm]

It would largely depend on what voters in the Republic of Ireland would be prepared to stomach in order to make it happen.

Speak to any Unionists about what it would take and even the sane ones insist on changes to the flag, the national anthem, the use of Irish language and membership of the Commonwealth.

To force through a reunion now, we would need to erode away at large swathes of our culture in order to placate an angry and bitter, but still significant minority.

For me, we would be better served waiting for another generation, until the natural demographics of Northern Ireland have rendered the lunatics far less significant and there is a greater buffer of time between key players and personal involvement or impact from the troubles.

Recent events have damaged the image of the DUP, I suspect beyond long term repair. Once those dinosaurs have died out, the two countries will be much better placed to negotiate a reunion.

Then there is the subject of whether or not, in the case of a United Ireland, England would foot the bill necessary to pay for the rehabilitation of a Northern Ireland they have neglected into ruin over the last century. I suspect a Torie government would have no intention of standing by their responsibilities in the event of losing a union member so again, Ireland would be better served using the next 15-20 years using the opportunity of how Brexit and the border issue has fallen, to encourage Northern Ireland to align herself more closely to the economic model of the Republic, in preparation for a future reunion at a time when NI is hopefully somewhat less of an economic black hole.

 

[sullydnl]

It would largely depend on what voters in the Republic of Ireland would be prepared to stomach in order to make it happen.

Speak to any Unionists about what it would take and even the sane ones insist on changes to the flag, the national anthem, the use of Irish language and membership of the Commonwealth.

To force through a reunion now, we would need to erode away at large swathes of our culture in order to placate an angry and bitter, but still significant minority.

For me, we would be better served waiting for another generation, until the natural demographics of Northern Ireland have rendered the lunatics far less significant and there is a greater buffer of time between key players and personal involvement or impact from the troubles.

Recent events have damaged the image of the DUP, I suspect beyond long term repair. Once those dinosaurs have died out, the two countries will be much better placed to negotiate a reunion.

Then there is the subject of whether or not, in the case of a United Ireland, England would foot the bill necessary to pay for the rehabilitation of a Northern Ireland they have neglected into ruin over the last century. I suspect a Torie government would have no intention of standing by their responsibilities in the event of losing a union member so again, Ireland would be better served using the next 15-20 years using the opportunity of how Brexit and the border issue has fallen, to encourage Northern Ireland to align herself more closely to the economic model of the Republic, in preparation for a future reunion at a time when NI is hopefully somewhat less of an economic black hole.

Agree with a lot of this, particularly in terms od what voters in the Republic (or indeed nationalists generally) would have to stomach.

I think some have a very vague image of a UI in their minds as some sort of true-gael utopia when in reality it would be far more "British" than the ROI ever was. How much would nationalists actually be prepared to give up for some sort of federalized Irish state before they regarded it as a betrayal of their identity?

Would we end up with a Brexit-like scenario where people vote for an abstract concept only to be be dismayed when they find only a heavily compromised iteration actually possible?

 

[Conor]

Does anyone not from the North particularly care?

 

[diarm]

Would we end up with a Brexit-like scenario where people vote for an abstract concept only to be be dismayed when they find only a heavily compromised iteration actually possible?

That would be my big worry. I'd like to think the Irish electorate would be smarter than to buy into a romantic notion without there being guarantees in place as to exactly what we are voting for.

But Trump and Brexit have shown that modern technology, media and social platforms have made it easier than ever to sway public opinion, especially when using emotional arguments. I would expect Sinn Fein to go down a similar road and there are a lot of people on both sides of the border who could well buy into it.

At the end of the day, it should be Northern Ireland who rejoins Ireland when they are ready to do so. There is no appetite anywhere south of the border for Ireland to rejoin any type of Britain so we must be careful not to let some misguided sense of haste, see us stumble into some unnecessary bastardised version of the two.

 

[acnumber9]

They’d have to have a proper plan in place for how they replace the stability and security of the large number of people employed by the British Government that people in Northern Ireland have. I think it is becoming more likely but there are still huge hurdles to overcome without even considering the potential for violence.

I think it’s stupid to campaign for a United Ireland off the back of the economic turmoil of Brexit while failing to acknowledge the economic turmoil that uniting would have. It’s not like Brexit isn’t likely to have a negative impact on Ireland too. The biggest thing for me is the detrimental decisions being made that we have no influence on, such as this general election.

 

[Shane88]

Does anyone from mainland UK even care about the North? I get the impression they'd drop it in the morning if they could.

 

[sullydnl]

That would be my big worry. I'd like to think the Irish electorate would be smarter than to buy into a romantic notion without there being guarantees in place as to exactly what we are voting for.

But Trump and Brexit have shown that modern technology, media and social platforms have made it easier than ever to sway public opinion, especially when using emotional arguments. I would expect Sinn Fein to go down a similar road and there are a lot of people on both sides of the border who could well buy into it.

At the end of the day, it should be Northern Ireland who rejoins Ireland when they are ready to do so. There is no appetite anywhere south of the border for Ireland to rejoin any type of Britain so we must be careful not to let some misguided sense of haste, see us stumble into some unnecessary bastardised version of the two.

Unfortunately moderates may not have much of a choice. Brexit probably *has* artificially accelerated the unification process, in which case it may well be difficult to slow things down.

And while the ideal would be to actually know the structures of a UI before we vote on it the reality is likely that we won't, if only because many unionists will refuse to even engage with the concept politically for fear of hastening it. At best we might have some sort of citizen's assembly type forum outlining ideas beforehand but even that would be heavily charged and politicised.

 

[sullydnl]

Does anyone from mainland UK even care about the North? I get the impression they'd drop it in the morning if they could.

Well the Tories certainly made clear it was less of a priority to them politically than Brexit.

However, on a fundamental level the UK government has to care. In the case of a UI they would likely have to negotiate their extended financial commitments to the region and have to deal with the security threat on their doorstop. So I think the UK government will certainly care even if the people don't particularly.

 

[diarm]

Unfortunately moderates may not have much of a choice. Brexit probably *has* artificially accelerated the unification process, in which case it may well be difficult to slow things down.

And while the ideal would be to actually know the structures of a UI before we vote on it the reality is likely that we won't, if only because many unionists will refuse to even engage with the concept politically for fear of hastening it. At best we might have some sort of citizen's assembly type forum outlining ideas beforehand but even that would be heavily charged and politicised.

Very well made points, particularly the likelihood that Unionists won't engage politically for fear of legitimising the idea.

The idea that a vote could take place without a clear and precise mandate for what exactly it is we are voting on terrifies me. Particularly when we have such clear and recent evidence of the mess that results from such an irresponsible referendum in the UK.

Before there is any vote in Northern Ireland, there should be a referendum in Ireland to decide what we want a United Ireland to be. Do we want to join Northern Ireland in Britain, do we want Northern Ireland to join us as Ireland and all that comes with it, or do we want to create a new country, taking and losing elements of each to try and keep everyone as happy as possible?

Once we have presented NI with exactly what a United Ireland will look like, then they can vote on whether they want to join, whether they want to stay in Britain or whether they want to set out as an independent state.

We can't allow our future to be jeopardised by some futile attempt to placate and negotiate with the likes of the DUP.

 

[Eire Red United]

Very well made points, particularly the likelihood that Unionists won't engage politically for fear of legitimising the idea.

The idea that a vote could take place without a clear and precise mandate for what exactly it is we are voting on terrifies me. Particularly when we have such clear and recent evidence of the mess that results from such an irresponsible referendum in the UK.

Before there is any vote in Northern Ireland, there should be a referendum in Ireland to decide what we want a United Ireland to be. Do we want to join Northern Ireland in Britain, do we want Northern Ireland to join us as Ireland and all that comes with it, or do we want to create a new country, taking and losing elements of each to try and keep everyone as happy as possible?

Once we have presented NI with exactly what a United Ireland will look like, then they can vote on whether they want to join, whether they want to stay in Britain or whether they want to set out as an independent state.

We can't allow our future to be jeopardised by some futile attempt to placate and negotiate with the likes of the DUP.

What?

 

[balaks]

Very well made points, particularly the likelihood that Unionists won't engage politically for fear of legitimising the idea.

The idea that a vote could take place without a clear and precise mandate for what exactly it is we are voting on terrifies me. Particularly when we have such clear and recent evidence of the mess that results from such an irresponsible referendum in the UK.

Before there is any vote in Northern Ireland, there should be a referendum in Ireland to decide what we want a United Ireland to be. Do we want to join Northern Ireland in Britain, do we want Northern Ireland to join us as Ireland and all that comes with it, or do we want to create a new country, taking and losing elements of each to try and keep everyone as happy as possible?

Once we have presented NI with exactly what a United Ireland will look like, then they can vote on whether they want to join, whether they want to stay in Britain or whether they want to set out as an independent state.

We can't allow our future to be jeopardised by some futile attempt to placate and negotiate with the likes of the DUP.

Sorry what?

 

[diarm]

What?

In the interest of offering a fair and unbiased ballot. Obviously nobody will vote for it.

 

[balaks]

In the interest of offering a fair and unbiased ballot. Obviously nobody will vote for it.

Why doesnt the UK join with Ireland and become Irish?

 

[diarm]

Why doesnt the UK join with Ireland and become Irish?

Because we wouldn't want them.

In all seriousness, giving the Unionists the fewest possible avenues down which to take us down pedantic rabbit holes is important.

 

[balaks]

Because we wouldn't want them.

It's just as stupid a thing to say as Ireland would consider joining with the UK though isnt it?

 

[sun_tzu]

Why doesnt the UK join with Ireland and become Irish?

Would that get us back in the EU... Sign me up

 

[diarm]

It's just as stupid a thing to say as Ireland would consider joining with the UK though isnt it?

If there is a going to be vote asking people who consider themselves British, to abandon their nationality and become Irish, it is balanced to offer the opposite option on the ballot.

By giving that as an option and seeing it thoroughly rejected, the DUP will have no discourse in bringing it up once the wailing begins.

 

[balaks]

If there is a going to be vote asking people who consider themselves British, to abandon their nationality and become Irish, it is balanced to offer the opposite option on the ballot.

By giving that as an option and seeing it thoroughly rejected, the DUP will have no discourse in bringing it up once the wailing begins.

Nobody, not even the DUP think that Ireland would want to become part of the UK. We dont need a vote to know that.

 

[diarm]

Nobody, not even the DUP think that Ireland would want to become part of the UK. We dont need a vote to know that.

Members of the DUP brought exactly that idea during the Brexit shitshow. You can bet they will do the same in the build up to any United Ireland debate.

 

[Scrumpet]

I'd just like to have a government, any government.

 

[Simbo]

Why doesnt the UK join with Ireland and become Irish?

Yes!! I'd vote for that.

 

[utdalltheway]

Why doesnt the UK join with Ireland and become Irish?

There’d be war, and the ROI couldn’t afford to feed all those prisoners

 

[RamblingRebel]

Tell the Northerners how much more money from the dole they'd get and they'll all be voting yes!

 

[Precaution]

History lesson time, anybody know what happened to the lead up in 1922 breakup of Ireland leaving the UK and why they wanted to?

 

[Rooney24]

Speak to any Unionists about what it would take and even the sane ones insist on changes to the flag, the national anthem, the use of Irish language and membership of the Commonwealth.

I will give you that Amhrán na bhFiann may have to go.

But how could anyone argue with the flag? Unionists are already represented on it.

And I really dont see any concession reagrding the Irish language. Even less so a UI joining the British Commonwealth of which the Queen is the head.

 

[utdalltheway]

I will give you that Amhrán na bhFiann may have to go. We've been singing a different one at the rugby internationals for years, so yeah, that can go.

But how could anyone argue with the flag? Unionists are already represented on it. Yes, they've got one third of it. If they want more there are flights and ferries leaving daily for GB.

And I really dont see any concession reagrding the Irish language. No need for concessions there. It's not like they'd be forced to speak it. The Govnmnt could tweak a few things re: the civil service exam, etc and it'd be grand. Even less so a UI joining the British Commonwealth of which the Queen is the head.

 

[Massive Spanner]

This guy has it cracked

 

[utdalltheway]

I think a lot of people are ignorant to the fact that Scotland joined the Union voluntarily after they botched a South American colonisation project left them bankrupt. They joined the Union to get back on their feet and to get in on the British Empire colonisation project. The Scots were actually the most enthusiastic colonisers in the Union, they were massively over-represented in the East India company for example and two Scottish businessmen started the Opium Wars with China that led to the UK acquiring Hong Kong. They were key players at every level of the Empire. The money.....follow the money.

Economically they are more reliant on trade with the UK internal market than the the UK is with the EU, for example. There are numerous big issues with disentangling from the UK union which is why they voted to remain a part of it previously.

I‘d also argue that the idea that Scotland have been kept ‘down’ by joining the Union is false. You can argue that by joining the union they became one of the most disproportionately powerful and influential nations in history.

It seems that the Scots have decided the price of independence, and they're not willing to pay it.

The poor old Welsh, they're so entangled it'd be difficult to break free.

 

[sullydnl]

I will give you that Amhrán na bhFiann may have to go.

But how could anyone argue with the flag? Unionists are already represented on it.

And I really dont see any concession reagrding the Irish language. Even less so a UI joining the British Commonwealth of which the Queen is the head.

The flag would of course have to go. Partly because using it would suggest that NI has been assimilated into ROI rather than a new state having been formed. Partly because it already carries enough symbolism within NI to get burned on unionist bonfires. Also, don't be surprised if it is suggested the new flag incorporates the Union Jack or another symbol of British identity.

As for the commonwealth, the likes of Australia and Canada are members so one could expect the possibility of UI being a member to come up.

The key point to all of this is that a United Ireland wouldn't be the Ireland we know. It would be an entirely new state, with the traditions of those who identify as being British so deeply woven into its fabric that it would in effect be partly British. Which is where a lot of Irish people may have an issue.

 

[Sweet Square]

The Guardian interviewed a Unionist farmer about the effects Brexit will have on his business and he summed it up nicely - ''You can't eat a flag''. A United Ireland will happen in the future but depending on how much damage Brexit causes, it might be sooner than we think.

 

[Fiskey]

Looking at this poll it seems so, if not now, then in the future with the age demographics

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...cording-to-lord-ashcroft-survey-38488280.html



Why? They are their own countries anyway, just in a political union with others.



I'm not sure it would have any real affect personally but I think it unlikely that there will be a Scottish referendum in the next 5 years.



The union of England and Wales is very old and like Scotland their economy is deeply integrated into the United Kingdom, they are loss making as a country and are subsidised by Westminster. They don't have any real crown jewel industries like Scotland do with oil and finance either. Add to that the large English population in Wales and independence there is a minority view.

I think a lot of people are ignorant to the fact that Scotland joined the Union voluntarily after they botched a South American colonisation project left them bankrupt. They joined the Union to get back on their feet and to get in on the British Empire colonisation project. The Scots were actually the most enthusiastic colonisers in the Union, they were massively over-represented in the East India company for example and two Scottish businessmen started the Opium Wars with China that led to the UK acquiring Hong Kong. They were key players at every level of the Empire.

Economically they are more reliant on trade with the UK internal market than the the UK is with the EU, for example. There are numerous big issues with disentangling from the UK union which is why they voted to remain a part of it previously.

I‘d also argue that the idea that Scotland have been kept ‘down’ by joining the Union is false. You can argue that by joining the union they became one of the most disproportionately powerful and influential nations in history.

Completely agree with this, as a Scot I think the Scottish have done incredibly well out of the Union.

 

[christy87]

The flag would of course have to go. Partly because using it would suggest that NI has been assimilated into ROI rather than a new state having been formed. Partly because it already carries enough symbolism within NI to get burned on unionist bonfires. Also, don't be surprised if it is suggested the new flag incorporates the Union Jack.

As for the commonwealth, the likes of Australia and Canada are members so one could expect the possibility of UI being a member to come up.

Not a hope in hell of the Union Jack being involved as there would be no union jack without Scotland and NI, as for the commonwealth not going to happen.