Abortion

[calodo2003]

Luckily your opinion is rare and frankly opposed to your usual normal posts I find it kinda gross.

Fair enough.

 

[Withnail]

Oh sod off, its the reality of it.

Flipside is you're championing rape births.

Also as per the sentiment below, if its the mothers choice it'd also be my own choice to commit suicide would it not?

You can't have it both ways.



Nope they don't trump it, still that's the reality of it.

She can make her choice much like the person could if / when they found out they were the product of something as horrifically violent and disgusting as rape.

You said a child shouldn't be born that way ever which is why I said you were forgetting about her choice. That's probably not what you meant now that you've clarified.

 

[dinostar77]

Is abortion going to be completely banned in all/some of the states or is it after 12 week of pregnancy period for example? I do agree there should be a cut off period where its too late to abort, say 12-16 weeks. After that it starts to look too much like a sentient lifeform.

Aborting before that i personally dont have an issue with. There are far too many children in the system who come from homes where they werent wanted. Forcing the birth of a unwanted child is a crime in itself imho.

 

[moses]

Many unplanned kids grows up just fine, not every unplanned birth would result in neglection. Some parents just not really planning for it, but doesnt mean they go starving and unwanted.

My ex was pregnant by accident, drove out of her house but the kids turns out just fine and they're happily together as family.

She was 19 when she had her first son

My kids were unplanned. Unplanned is not the same as unwanted.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Is abortion going to be completely banned in all/some of the states or is it after 12 week of pregnancy period for example? I do agree there should be a cut off period where its too late to abort, say 12-16 weeks. After that it starts to look too much like a sentient lifeform.

Aborting before that i personally dont have an issue with. There are far too many children in the system who come from homes where they werent wanted. Forcing the birth of a unwanted child is a crime in itself imho.

A complete ban in some states, including for rape and incest.

12-16 weeks is too little time, there has never been a viable baby before 21 weeks. As I said above, even with the best medical assistance, it's only a 50/50 chance of survival at 24 weeks.

 

[shamans]

Again with the scare words. It’s a fetus.

These are facts not scare words. You're the one trying to play around with definitions to of extreme late term pregnancies.

But, just to entertain you do you know very late term abortions even happen? The fetus is way too developed to dismember parts within the body. So you either have to go in and kill the baby or partially deliver and kill (which was banned in 2003 it seems). The killing is done by lethal injection.

 

[Keefy18]

You said a child shouldn't be born that way ever which is why I said you were forgetting about her choice. That's probably not what you meant now that you've clarified.

I guess I'm speaking in ideal scenarios. I fully appreciate it does happen, sadly.

I doubt there is a single poster here that would like to find out they were the result of a rape. Chances are for many it would adversely affect their mental health and suicide a likely outcome in quite a lot of instances (I don't have the data but would assume so).

It'd absolutely tear me apart personally, having to live with that my entire life. My own personal belief would be that it's extremely selfish of the mother to keep the child, albeit one that is entirely a choice of their own. Again, I would never do that to a child myself. I don't have the data at hand, but I'd imagine quite a lot of mothers (more so this generation) would abort in the instance of rape.

The person could be a perfectly functioning being (whatever their age), but finding that information out would be as good as death sentence. I highly doubt they would carry on their life relatively care free. That's just my own sentiments on it.

 

[Withnail]

Please do not think I was intimating that you would besmirch someone, I was just illuminating my feelings on it. Apologies if it came off as a shot across the bow.

I do understand that it is extreme, but I wouldn’t be opposed to that scenario of having the option available.

Ok fair enough. I wasn't sure whether you meant it that way. Thanks for clarifying. We'll have to disagree on the length of term end of things.

 

[shamans]

Oh sod off, its the reality of it.

Flipside is you're championing rape births.

Also as per the sentiment below, if its the mothers choice it'd also be my own choice to commit suicide would it not?

You can't have it both ways.



Nope they don't trump it, still that's the reality of it.

She can make her choice much like the person could if / when they found out they were the product of something as horrifically violent and disgusting as rape.

I am championing rape births by saying kids should not commit suicide?

What about, at any point in her pregnancy, a raped woman can induce child birth. If the child lives unaided, put it up for adoption, if it dies, it dies. Natural enough?

Why is it either or? A raped woman should abort her fetus if she wishes to, but up until a certain point. Beyond 20 whatever weeks she should give birth and give it up for adoption if she so wishes to.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

These are facts not scare words. You're the one trying to play around with definitions to of extreme late term pregnancies.

But, just to entertain you do you know very late term abortions even happen? The fetus is way too developed to dismember parts within the body. So you either have to go in and kill the baby or partially deliver and kill (which was banned in 2003 it seems). The killing is done by lethal injection.

It's still not a baby until its born. My daughters were fetuses until they were born, because a baby is outside a womb and a fetus is inside the womb. My best friend's wife had a still birth at 8 and a half months, they had a pregnancy but didn't have a baby.

 

[calodo2003]

These are facts not scare words. You're the one trying to play around with definitions to of extreme late term pregnancies.

But, just to entertain you do you know very late term abortions even happen? The fetus is way too developed to dismember parts within the body. So you either have to go in and kill the baby or partially deliver and kill (which was banned in 2003 it seems). The killing is done by lethal injection.

I am aware.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Is abortion going to be completely banned in all/some of the states or is it after 12 week of pregnancy period for example? I do agree there should be a cut off period where its too late to abort, say 12-16 weeks. After that it starts to look too much like a sentient lifeform.

Aborting before that i personally dont have an issue with. There are far too many children in the system who come from homes where they werent wanted. Forcing the birth of a unwanted child is a crime in itself imho.

12-16 weeks because of how it looks doesn't seem a particularly objective cut off point.

 

[shamans]

I guess I'm speaking in ideal scenarios. I fully appreciate it does happen, sadly.

I doubt there is a single poster here that would like to find out they were the result of a rape. Chances are for many it would adversely affect their mental health and suicide a likely outcome in quite a lot of instances (I don't have the data but would assume so).

It'd absolutely tear me apart personally, having to live with that my entire life. My own personal belief would be that it's extremely selfish of the mother to keep the child, albeit one that is entirely a choice of their own. Again, I would never do that to a child myself. I don't have the data at hand, but I'd imagine quite a lot of mothers (more so this generation) would abort in the instance of rape.

The person could be a perfectly functioning being (whatever their age), but finding that information out would be as good as death sentence. I highly doubt they would carry on their life relatively care free. That's just my own sentiments on it.

Right. Doesn't mean we would wish we were aborted.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I am championing rape births by saying kids should not commit suicide?



Why is it either or? A raped woman should abort her fetus if she wishes to, but up until a certain point. Beyond 20 whatever weeks she should give birth and give it up for adoption if she so wishes to.

That's what I'm saying, induce birth at any point and don't give it assistance. If it lives "God wants it", put it up for adoption, if it dies, "God didn't want it". You don't have to intubate, you chose to.

 

[shamans]

That's what I'm saying, induce birth at any point and don't give it assistance. If it lives "God wants it", put it up for adoption, if it dies, "God didn't want it". You don't have to intubate, you chose to.

Why are you posing me with the question of inducing birth at any point when I have not suggested anything of that sort. I don't know what parallel you are even trying to make from this.

 

[dinostar77]

A complete ban in some states, including for rape and incest.

12-16 weeks is too little time, there has never been a viable baby before 21 weeks. As I said above, even with the best medical assistance, it's only a 50/50 chance of survival at 24 weeks.

Jesus. Thats bad i.e. the highlighted.

Personally i think 24 weeks is too late for an abortion but thats only my own personal opinion.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Please do not think I was intimating that you would besmirch someone, I was just illuminating my feelings on it. Apologies if it came off as a shot across the bow.

I do understand that it is extreme, but I wouldn’t be opposed to that scenario of having the option available.

Nor I and it should be a medical staff and patient decision which my opinion about is utterly irrelevant.

 

[The Firestarter]

Wouldn't be surprised if a couple of posters in this thread turn out to be actual psychopaths.

 

[Carolina Red]

Right. Doesn't mean we would wish we were aborted.

Pssst… if you were, you wouldn’t know the difference.

 

[Withnail]

I guess I'm speaking in ideal scenarios. I fully appreciate it does happen, sadly.

I doubt there is a single poster here that would like to find out they were the result of a rape. Chances are for many it would adversely affect their mental health and suicide a likely outcome in quite a lot of instances (I don't have the data but would assume so).

It'd absolutely tear me apart personally, having to live with that my entire life. My own personal belief would be that it's extremely selfish of the mother to keep the child, albeit one that is entirely a choice of their own. Again, I would never do that to a child myself. I don't have the data at hand, but I'd imagine quite a lot of mothers (more so this generation) would abort in the instance of rape.

The person could be a perfectly functioning being (whatever their age), but finding that information out would be as good as death sentence. I highly doubt they would carry on their life relatively care free. That's just my own sentiments on it.

From a hypothetical standpoint it's hard to judge. I don't think it would necessarily be a death sentence but it's obviously a very hard thing to deal with. It has to be said I'm speaking from a position of ignorance here as I've no experience of, or certainly can't recall, hearing from someone who's been through that.

 

[Blackwidow]

Sure..but on the flip side there are parents who aborts for the silliest reason. And I'm not saying full anti abortion, but some flexibility and some constraint should exist.

And - you want exactly that people to be parents of kids...

A kid actually should have the right to be wanted (not to be planned but atleast to be wanted after that). I do not know how much a baby or even a fetus gets influenced by an unlucky mother... But I could imagine that already the pregnant women does more for her health if she really wants the kid - and that for sure influences the health of the kid, too.

 

[Keefy18]

I am championing rape births by saying kids should not commit suicide?

Probably the wrong choice of word, but you suggested they'd be no different.

Reality is they would be. I can't see how it wouldn't adversely affect most children born of rape.

Just like the mother who experienced such a horrific assault it scars them for life, the child would be similar. Of course some handle it and get on with life, whilst others wouldn't.

Right. Doesn't mean we would wish we were aborted.

Ideally, they probably should be. But we don't live in an ideal world and ultimately its up to the mother.

I can only give my own personal sentiments on it and that's how I feel.

 

[Carolina Red]

Many unplanned kids grows up just fine, not every unplanned birth would result in neglection. Some parents just not really planning for it, but doesnt mean they go starving and unwanted.

My ex was pregnant by accident, drove out of her house but the kids turns out just fine and they're happily together as family.

She was 19 when she had her first son

And yet so so so many are. You’ve got an anecdotal story, well me too… I’ve got the anecdotal story of my wife, born to a 16 year old. She was neglected, abused, brought to drug deals, and spent time homeless. Sure, she’s a nurse practitioner now and folks like you would say “see she turned out fine”, but folks like me see the other side of the coin, the side that exists because of all the trauma she experienced growing up without a father and unwanted.

That’s the story of the majority of people who are born, and will be born, as the result of unwanted pregnancies that are forced to be carried to term.

 

[Keefy18]

From a hypothetical standpoint it's hard to judge. I don't think it would necessarily be a death sentence but it's obviously a very hard thing to deal with. It has to be said I'm speaking from a position of ignorance here as I've no experience of, or certainly can't recall, hearing from someone who's been through that.

I don't either have the experience.

I do however come from a home that had a mother who was sexually abused by her step father and that alone has left the family broken my entire life. Each member of the family to this day still battles demons due to one single person ripping apart the family.

I can only imagine the damage having a child born of rape could / would possibly do. Just trying to apply logic and based on personal experiences, I'd assume it'd only amplify an already horrific situation.

 

[Sky1981]

Do you think having an abortion is just some whimsical get out?

I'm not saying ALL abortion. I can't say for 100%, but in my country most of "unplanned" pregnancy were the results of kids just having sex pre-marriage, and the selfishness of the guy for not wearing contraception, the norm was "cum outside" or just "ovulation apps". In my ex's case she was 19, doing her degree and being pregnant means she has to drop out, getting a child at such an early age without being able to see through her education, and getting married to a guy who might or might not be his love of a lifetime. We all been young before.

As for the guy, who's roughly her age. Having a son means he has obligation to feed not only the wife, but the son, without having a degree yet to find a living, not to mention the stigma of "MBA" (Married by accident) which in Indonesia is still quite a strong stigma. The shame with family and stuff.

So yes, choosing abortion is more often the easiest way out for everyone. Could they raise the kids? Sure.. they're not actually skint to the point of having to starve, they have ok parents who can afford their grandchildren. But off course they'll lose their freedom, getting tied up at such a young age.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Why are you posing me with the question of inducing birth at any point when I have not suggested anything of that sort. I don't know what parallel you are even trying to make from this.

I'm just saying that as a compromise. I can understand why you don't like late term abortions regardless of the situation.

After the time limit for abortions, say 24 weeks, some people think that a rape victim should be then stuck for the last 16 weeks until they have a natural birth, some people think rape victims should be able to abort at any point, which you mentioned involves going in and killing the foetus before birth.

What I'm proposing is that a rape victim can induce birth at any time after the time limit, but can choose not to put the born child into NICU. That way you aren't killing the born baby, you're just seeing if the born baby is viable when born.

It finds a distinction between viable and non viable foetuses. Its only a baby if it lives unaided (as in medical equipment, not formula in a bottle) outside the womb.

This would be only for the case of rape or incest victims, not everyone.

 

[Sky1981]

And - you want exactly that people to be parents of kids...

A kid actually should have the right to be wanted (not to be planned but atleast to be wanted after that). I do not know how much a baby or even a fetus gets influenced by an unlucky mother... But I could imagine that already the pregnant women does more for her health if she really wants the kid - and that for sure influences the health of the kid, too.

My ex was 19 when she has to make the choice of keep or abort.

It was hardly an easy choice I tell you. And no support of parents, no expert help, no professional support etc.

She could have aborted and regretted it, or who knows she might be better of, we never know. But at the expense of a child... I'd take the chance.

and talking about mental damage, abortion often comes with emotional damage as well. IT's not actually risk free, the guilt, regrets. It's not actually a clear cut choice (if it's unplanned pregnant. Again not talking about rape here)

 

[RoadTrip]

Can we fecking stop with the nonsense that a pregnancy results in a baby before the baby is born? If it was, then all the legal rights that kick in (other than preventing abortion) would also do so on the day a woman is pregnant. But they don’t. Because it’s bollocks. So quit with the nonsense that it’s a baby. Just because it’s viable at that point for it to survive alone, doesn’t make it a baby.

 

[Jericholyte2]

I'm getting a lot of, "Well I've never had Chicken Pox so Chicken Pox can't possibly exist" vibe from some posters here.

 

[Sky1981]

And yet so so so many are. You’ve got an anecdotal story, well me too… I’ve got the anecdotal story of my wife, born to a 16 year old. She was neglected, abused, brought to drug deals, and spent time homeless. Sure, she’s a nurse practitioner now and folks like you would say “see she turned out fine”, but folks like me see the other side of the coin, the side that exists because of all the trauma she experienced growing up without a father and unwanted.

That’s the story of the majority of people who are born, and will be born, as the result of unwanted pregnancies that are forced to be carried to term.

I don't know. I'm not saying I can judge what's ok or not ok. I cannot say if your In law (her mum) would have chosen differently, I can't say if your wife would prefer to not given birth to this world. We all don't know honestly, and everyone's answer might be different from where they stand in life. My ex could have chosen to abort it if she has the time machine, chase her dreams and all. But seeing her 2 children and how happy they were, I think she's glad she didn't abort them. I don't know.

Not an easy choice to make as a 19 years old.

I'm not saying "it'll be fine". It's not in some cases, but it's not always ended up badly in some cases too.

But this choices comes with a cost, and I'd prefer to take the chance of having kids if it's the same 50/50 chances.

 

[Carolina Red]

Can we fecking stop with the nonsense that a pregnancy results in a baby before the baby is born? If it was, then all the legal rights that kick in (other than preventing abortion) would also do so on the day a woman is pregnant. But they don’t. Because it’s bollocks. So quit with the nonsense that it’s a baby. Just because it’s viable at that point for it to survive alone, doesn’t make it a baby.

Indeed. I sincerely hope to see Republicans put in the quandary of now explaining why we have birthright citizenship instead of conceptionright citizenship.

 

[shamans]

I'm just saying that as a compromise. I can understand why you don't like late term abortions regardless of the situation.

After the time limit for abortions, say 24 weeks, some people think that a rape victim should be then stuck for the last 16 weeks until they have a natural birth, some people think rape victims should be able to abort at any point, which you mentioned involves going in and killing the foetus before birth.

What I'm proposing is that a rape victim can induce birth at any time after the time limit, but can choose not to put the born child into NICU. That way you aren't killing the born baby, you're just seeing if the born baby is viable when born.

It finds a distinction between viable and non viable foetuses. Its only a baby if it lives unaided (as in medical equipment, not formula in a bottle) outside the womb.

This would be only for the case of rape or incest victims, not everyone.

Okay, well I'm not aware of the law but if the law allows induced labor at 26 weeks and not having the child in intensive care and not getting charged for that, then I am obviously against that. Laws aside I am saying morally it shouldn't happen because even if the abortion law was there if someone is set on it they'll do it (unless its quite late when it can be dangerous to themselves).

So to answer I would say at a certain cutoff period (idk when that is. 24 weeks, 25 weeks, 23 weeks?) I would like to see the birth go to completion.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Indeed. I sincerely hope to see Republicans put in the quandary of now explaining why we have birthright citizenship instead of conceptionright citizenship.

If your parents were in or flying over the USA between 10 and 8 months before your birth, you're suddenly an American Citizen! Welcome!

 

[Carolina Red]

I don't know. I'm not saying I can judge what's ok or not ok. I cannot say if your In law (her mum) would have chosen differently, I can't say if your wife would prefer to not given birth to this world. We all don't know honestly, and everyone's answer might be different from where they stand in life.

Not an easy choice

I'm not saying "it'll be fine". It's not in some cases, but it's not always ended up badly in some cases too.

But this choices comes with a cost, and I'd prefer to take the chance of having kids if it's the same 50/50 chances.

1) I can, because I’ve asked her. She’d rather have been aborted than to live through some of what she did in her childhood.

2) You spent a lot of time in that post talking about how you don’t know. Since you don’t know, you should support the option that allows people to choose.

3) Allowing people to choose gives you the right to “take the chance” without forcing your “I don’t know but…” on other people.

 

[RoadTrip]

This debate has also become tangential to the issue. As a reminder, what you, I, or the next person thinks about abortion is irrelevant. Our moral positions shouldn’t be making the decision. What makes a court, or you and I, more qualified to decide for someone else what they should do? That’s the crux of the issue. Not what each of us think about abortion itself.

I’ve already set out my stall on abortion. I’m personally against it. The idea of an abortion in the third trimester sends shivers down my back. I have exceptions to this - such as rape. Incest. And a medical requirement to abort. I have no objection in any way to an abortion at any stage of pregnancy in those scenarios. Because the psychological impacts of those things don’t always manifest immediately and if they do, even at 8 months, then I would completely understand why one might abort then.

If I was the supreme leader of a world where I had to make all decisions, me personally, apart from those exemptions above, would probably make getting an abortion difficult after a fetus could be viable alone. So approx. 5 and a half months. Because there’s other options than aborting at that stage.

But I’m not and neither are we and neither should be the Supreme Court. And so, in this world, the way it should be is that it should be between the woman and medical professionals. It just shouldn’t be something that is dictated by others, period.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

But this choices comes with a cost, and I'd prefer to take the chance of having kids if it's the same 50/50 chances.

And some people aren't prepared, able or willing to bear that cost. Sometimes all three. Then you have a child with complex emotions and needs who must deal with all the pain, trauma and potential negative outcomes that result from being neglected.

I get that it's a difficult idea to come to terms with but surely the destruction of a few developing cells is better than how some people end up.

For god's sake imagine being married to @Carolina Red kidding mate

 

[Carolina Red]

If your parents were in or flying over the USA between 10 and 8 months before your birth, you're suddenly an American Citizen! Welcome!

GOP heads would explode once they realized illegal immigrants just have to be in the US long enough to get pregnant, not to give birth.

 

[Donaldo]

I'm getting a lot of, "Well I've never had Chicken Pox so Chicken Pox can't possibly exist" vibe from some posters here.

Im getting a lot of "I'm a man and I have a point of view on something I most definitely shouldn't" vibe from most.

 

[hellhunter]

GOP heads would explode once they realized illegal immigrants just have to be in the US long enough to get pregnant, not to give birth.

Shag flights to exploit the system

 

[RoadTrip]

I don't know. I'm not saying I can judge what's ok or not ok. I cannot say if your In law (her mum) would have chosen differently, I can't say if your wife would prefer to not given birth to this world. We all don't know honestly, and everyone's answer might be different from where they stand in life. My ex could have chosen to abort it if she has the time machine, chase her dreams and all. But seeing her 2 children and how happy they were, I think she's glad she didn't abort them. I don't know.

Not an easy choice to make as a 19 years old.

I'm not saying "it'll be fine". It's not in some cases, but it's not always ended up badly in some cases too.

But this choices comes with a cost, and I'd prefer to take the chance of having kids if it's the same 50/50 chances.

But your posts contradict this. Surely this explains why the woman herself is the best person to decide, not some old twats on the Supreme Court?