That's the normal circumstance but it's hardly the only one possible. There's a reason competitions try to avoid the kind of fixture congestion that we're seeing right now, and saw at the back end of last season. Playing an above average amount of games for a prolonged period of time can cause fatigue, just as playing an exceptional amount of games in a compressed period of time. Fatigue in international tournaments is evident as you go through the competition, and teams have won tournaments in large part due to strategies we'll designed to combat that alone. Spain, Italy and others have that winter break for a reason too. Dismissing scheduling as a factor in fitness is ridiculous given entire conditioning schedules are built around optimising fitness peaks to deal with exactly that challenge, only this time it's been amped up several levels.
Accumulated fatigue is a real thing.
- Thread starter Santoryo
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This post is childish.
Agreed, they're both plausible, reasonable opinions. No need to chide people for having a different opinion. Some people are naturally pessimistic. That pessimism combined with past evidence makes their fears, goals, and assessment entirely reasonable, even if it ends up being inaccurate. I hope it is but that hope isn't on rock solid foundations.
Oh look at that Wolves are getting bloodied by West Ham, 3-0 as I'm writing this.
I'm not bashing United, nor bashing Ole.
Nor am I suggesting that fatigue isn't real.
I'm merely highlighting that it's not as big an issue as what your trying to imply.
As I say, context is required when looking at the different games and teams.
Bayerns loss can be put down to fatigue from midweek, Sevilla dominated the game, just couldn't break the lines.
Barca don't seem to be struggling either, despite their upheaval recently.
City weren't poor in the second half, Wolves stepped up their game, but City held on relatively comfortably.
Fatigue is a convenient excuse for many.
They had a rest and a half decent preseason prep. Think they even went away to Austria.
Rotate as much as possible. That's the only way. For that we need capable deputies that can come in and be relied on to still get results. That's where Ed has failed. Frankly instead of Sancho, getting a RW, CM(mission complete on that front), CB would be better than just getting Sancho and VDB. That's assuming we did already have Sancho which lets be honest, chances are low
This is where we disagree and the point I'm trying hard to make. As pointed out in another thread, there is a stat showing teams across Europe who went deep in Europe competition struggling. These aren't just extenuating circumstances, it's a solid pattern with 1 common component in all of them. As I'm writing this Wolves are getting thumped by West ham just to add another example to the pile of evidences.
The scheduling it's always going to be a problem but the top teams are supposed to have squads able to cope with that amount of fixtures, but like you said there's more than that and it requires some planning ahead. Some teams can have a strong XI but their backups might not perform to the stand and would be forced to keep playing the same players in order to get favorable results. So there a lot of variables that come to squad management along with the fixtures, injuries, etc.
They'll beat us too.Spurs played today, then they play on Tuesday, then Thursday and then against us on Sunday
Teams are leaking goals left right and centre this season.
This is the crux of our problem. The end of last season showed us what 11 of our players could do, but the FA cup and the first half of the season showed us what the other 12 could not. Our front 3 is really good, not great because they don't have the consistency yet, just simply really good. For situations like this, especially with young players, its better to have attacking options that perform at a similar or slightly lower level. Chelsea for example, could get away with poor form from Abraham, Willian and Pulisic, because they had Giroud, Pedro and Mount in reserve. All of whom would star in most first xi's in the league. Even city can call upon Ferran Torres and Gabriel Jesus. Unfortunately for us, we have not yet improved our depth in this regard. Signing Sancho in place of Greenwood, and using him as a rotation option with those three positions would help us a lot. It would reduce the responsibilites placed on the front three.
Our midfield has a good blend, it just needs time to adapt to the new season. In defence, like most teams, AWB and Shaw do not have capable back ups. In the case of AWB, his lack of injury history means that we can afford to have a young player like WIlliams play under him, but with Shaw, his injury history requires us to have a left back that approximates or even supersedes his level. The difference between us and Liverpool/City is depth and the fatigue that comes from the lack of it. If we can improve ourselves in this area through trusting youngsters and signing players, we will get back where we need to be.
This is exactly why I said we shouldn't have bothered with the Europa league once we knew we had top 4 in the bag.
We tried to win a pointless trophy that nobody even cared about 5 years ago, and now we're going to pay for it.
Should have given the entire first 11 a proper break and just played the reserves/subs. Now every other team is rested and had a pre season while we struggle.
We tried to win a pointless trophy that nobody even cared about 5 years ago, and now we're going to pay for it.
Should have given the entire first 11 a proper break and just played the reserves/subs. Now every other team is rested and had a pre season while we struggle.
Yeah, agreed. Following that line of thinking you would expect the worse teams to suffer more with smaller squads, either by overplaying the first XI and crashing in the final third of the season like Leicester, or by playing too many squad players unable to compete at that level. The point of the OP though is that there is an added element to this, in that some teams finished significantly later. It is unusual that fixture schedules were distributed so unevenly at the end of the season, so even if all teams are now facing the compressed schedule this year, they didn't all start on the same foot. That happens to a lesser degree with international tournament finalists being over represented in top teams, so they're hindered that way, but it has never applied before to entire squads. So you would expect an impact on fitness. Big squads should help mitigate that, and it's United's fault for not having that buffer, but it would still be a factor regardless.
Him being tired from accumulated fatigue and being in recovery from a virus isn't the same thing. He had last season off chilling in Dubai for half of it so he should be well rested. If he is sick then don't play him. But this Pogba being tired needs to stop.
like a leaky sieve!
It's not tiredness it's not being full fit, big difference. Brighton are fit and press well, they made us look bad all over the pitch.
Then don't play him, simple. He has been playing like he is in low drive for a while now way before he got Covid.
I hope it's more lack of match fitness than fatigue to be honest. In reality, it could be a mixture of both
Poor them. Tell me; do you work? When you go on vacation, do you have few weeks off when you return on your job? Does your boss tell you; "You had tough year, just chill few weeks, if you feck up something, nevermind. All cool. We will pay you your salary and you just take it slow".
How fans treat players these days is amazing. I just can't believe what is happening in this snowflake (football) world. Fans care more for players feelings than the club.
"Coach didn't pick him for the game/benched him/subbed him. Poor guy, he will be devasted. Stupid coach. Does he care about his feelings". "He wants to leave the club because his dream is Real/Batca/Luton/Swansea. We must let him go". "He is a nice lad. Don't criticize his (shit) performances". Etc....
They are payed millions for playing football. Their job is to be fit. If that meant to not go on 3 weeks vacation this year and train alone with private coach, they should have done that. Go on 5 days somewhere, rest a bit and then prepare for season. This year was shit for everybody. And we all adapted. So, they also should have done that.
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Lots of teams have started poorly and can excuse it with poor fitness too, but shouldn't.
Although some teams cope with it better and have better fitness coaching.
Leicester had a nightmare summer, but have started this season well.
It is not like they got a long rest. Two or one game less it was for most teams.
Although some teams cope with it better and have better fitness coaching.
Leicester had a nightmare summer, but have started this season well.
It is not like they got a long rest. Two or one game less it was for most teams.
Well you have to play him to get him up to speed at some point. Ole has handled it fine and when Pogba has got tired he's subbed him.
IF he continues playing badly in the next few then yes i'm sure he will get dropped. Right now though we have so many games we need everybody to play.
Fred/Mctominay/VDB will play this Wednesday you'd expect.
It's a mixture of both. In some case it's clearly a lack of sharpness and fitness like Pogba who is clearly not quite sharp and fit enough. Then in other cases you have accumulated fatigue with the likes of Martial and Bruno who have played non stop since after lockdown. Both cases lead to slow, labored football from players. Players have looked heavy on their fit, slow, lack sharpness and precision in their passing.
think its more regarding the teams that played in the European competition in August. Someone posted a stat that those teams have only won 1/3rd of their games this start of the season. Teams that didn't play in August also haven't had the normal summer preseason but they have had at least about 3 weeks to more than a month of preseason as compared to 1-2 weeks for the others. That makes some difference towards match fitness.
Mate....even if they are paid millions, they are still human. Post lockdown we basically played a cup final every game as all of those were "must wins" and the players worked their arses off. Pro athletes or not, they badly needed a break. If they had gotten 5 days off and then went straight back to full training we would have risked an injury list like never before. Does not matter what you are paid, your body needs to recover
Besides, today showed that its not only us that has suffered from fatigue/lack of match sharpness
From another thread
Aggregate league stats for the 16 teams involved in the final 8 of CL and EL last season:
33 games played - 13 wins, 10 draws, 10 losses - 49/99 points.
All teams have played league games so far except Barcelona (plays later tonight).
All teams that have played more than one game have dropped points so far.
Absolutely horrific by all teams involved, how could they start this poorly... what could be the reason...
I agree, in hindsight, but I don't think the players would have accepted that. We were considered favourites and playing very well. They would have been hungry for some decent silverware and Ole would have been thinking of putting a marker down. If we'd have won the thing, would you say the same?
Once again, with Wolves context is everything also, their season lasted over a year, they are blooding in new recruits and have a game system which has been worked out.
I haven't seen the stat you are talking about, but having seen the results from teams who played in Europe til late, the vast majority have won or have picked up points.
Barca are cruising right now, and as I have previously mentioned lots of other semi final teams have got off to good starts.
I don't see the fitness issue much with City. They just got destroyed on the counter like we have seen before. Also lacked ideas in attack against a compact side.
Against Wolves they looked like normally do.
When I look at the betting odds they don't seem affected by match fitness of the teams at all.
If this was a thing then people could be making millions betting against the clubs with little pre season.
Bayern also smashed Schalke 8-0 clearly looking very fit.
Wolves dire form should prove this AND they went out before us from the EL
City were shocking today too. All this makes our shitty form make sense.
City were shocking today too. All this makes our shitty form make sense.
No they didn't, I'm beginning to suspect the people who keep saying this didn't actually watch the game. Anyway, like it has been mentioned a million times already Wolves were one of the teams with no pre-season as well so both sides were on a level playing field. Not sure what game you were watching today either, none of Leicester's goals came from counter attacks, they all came from regular passages of play.
Also, bayern just got beat 4-1 today. That Schalke team sacked their manager after 3 games which tells you all you need to know about that accomplishment. Bayern are also a much better team than we are, not to mention Bundesliga finished before the PL last season, and they already play less games in that league as it is.
Honestly for the clubs sake? yes.
For the players? I get why they'd want a trophy but it's short term thinking. There was always a risk we wouldn't win with Sevilla/Inter on a similar level as us.
We knew the next season would start in literally 2/3 weeks after that tournament, we'd get hardly any rest and the next season will be even more compact. Add in the international matches, no winter break and then the Euros at the end of the season it's just an insane workload. I have no idea how the players are going to manage to stay fit all season but heavy rotation will be required, this season will be a war of attrition.
Throw a trophy chance from one season to maybe get a better trophy the next season, or not even a trophy, just top four? I hate that thinking.
All clubs are in a similar boat, few weeks rest here or there, Liverpool kind of worry the most as they havnt had a competitive match since June really, so they’re fighting fresh and everyone around them still on their knees.
Some of us work 50+ hours a week for less in a year than these guys earn in a week. Excuse me if my heart doesn't bleed.
United need to establish ourselves as a top 4 club. That is more important than some tinbot Europa trophy that none of us cared about a few years ago.
Financially and for our reputation it's way more important. We haven't had CL football 2 years in a row since Fergie ffs!
Don't get me wrong i'd love for us to win a trophy, but we are in the building phase right now, we are trying to run before we can walk.
Get the squad strong enough and we will win trophies. Anyway this season is *hopefully* going to be an anomaly.
How long did the players have off completely from Covid lockdown until the resumption of the league games, or at least the resumption of training?
To answer the OP, yes players aren't robots. A good pre-season/preparation is hugely important in order to hit the ground running in the new season.
I don’t think throwing the last two games of a competition that we had a good chance of winning would have garunteed us top four this year anyway to be honest, of course the players had to go for it. And the Europa May be tinpot to you but it’s all about winning and getting used to winning, league cup, fa cup, whatever, the team needs to learn to win, not get close and then think ahh that’s enough now we’ll win Something better next year
Well it's certainly put us behind in the first game, and we were lucky with the smash and grab against Brighton. Hopefully we will be fresher come Christmas than the others with the delayed start.
I only felt that with the FA Cup semi final, as the team was displaying tiredness in almost every position. That first XI was in dire need of a rest. But with the Europa - let's say Ole would have played fringe players and youngsters, he'd have been slaughtered after going out to Sevilla (in all likelihood) and it would be increased pressure in that sense carried on into this season.
There are things we can do to manage better, like planning ahead and giving players time off, but Ole will need to trust his squad more.