African players playing for European countries

[The Original]

It wouldn't be beneficial because most of the players we are talking about wouldn't come from the same development system. Think about it this way, would you make the point that an english descent raised in the US benefits from the same football culture than someone raised in England? That Rooney would 100% turn into a world class player if he was raised in Cleveland Ohio?

The USA today probably could produce 17-year-old Rooney. Lots of good players coming out from the States, and even Canada without having the level of talent Rooney had. Whether he would progress into mid-20s Rooney is a different question entirely.

That said, I don't really follow the point you're making with the Rooney example in connection with the question of whether European born players would improve African teams.

The point was that African players in Europe as they are now, being forced to play for their national teams would benefit those national teams because they would have a greater pool of quality players to choose from.

 

[fck]

Not true and demonstrably so.

If you compile a list of the top players of African descent of all time it would look like this:

Zidane
George Weah (Africa Born)
Benzema
Yaya Toure (Africa Born)
Eto (Africa Born)
Viera (Africa Born)
Salah (Africa born)
Aboutrika (Africa born)
Drogba (Africa born)
Okocha (Africa born)

Yes of course you can become a great player growing up in an African country as your list shows but what I meant is that the chances of becoming such a player in a country like France is significantly higher. It's unlikely that we would be talking about Zidane or Mbappe if they had grown up in Algeria in my opinion.

 

[Stacks]

If he’s concerned about raising standards he should ask why the continent of Africa only gets 5 World Cup qualifying places whereas Europe gets 13 despite having nearly double the population of Europe?

because African teams crash out super early and are barely competitive. We could let Asia have more places because China and India have 1/3 the world population but do you want to see 7-0 drummings

 

[MackRobinson]

Absolutely asinine proposal from Mourinho. Not every African player abroad has the same ties to the continent and there are monetary implications for the nation you choose to represent. What if a player is mixed with multiple nationalities?

Mourinho is a buffoon who doesn't think before he speaks.

 

[MackRobinson]

The fact he probably doesn't mean any harm is a fantastic example of how ingrained racism is in our subconscious.

Underrated comment

 

[Red the Bear]

I would actually like this, always had a soft spot for African countries duran world cup and rooting for them.
Would love to see them go far.
However it probably won't be either practical nor convenient, it raises the whole question of nationality and nationalism again which probably isn't worth it.

 

[JPRouve]

The USA today probably could produce 17-year-old Rooney. Lots of good players coming out from the States, and even Canada without having the level of talent Rooney had. Whether he would progress into mid-20s Rooney is a different question entirely.

That said, I don't really follow the point you're making with the Rooney example in connection with the question of whether European born players would improve African teams.

The point was that African players in Europe as they are now, being forced to play for their national teams would benefit those national teams because they would have a greater pool of quality players to choose from.

You are overrating the ability of the US to produce players, there isn't currently lots of good players coming from the States.

Regarding the bold part, who are these african players that aren't playing for "their" national teams? Outside of few exceptions of african born players that moved to Europe as kids, the vast majority of players not playing for "their" national teams are European players playing for African national teams. If players are forced to play for "their" national teams then many african teams are in trouble.

 

[WeePat]

Absolutely asinine proposal from Mourinho. Not every African player abroad has the same ties to the continent and there are monetary implications for the nation you choose to represent. What if a player is mixed with multiple nationalities?

Mourinho is a buffoon who doesn't think before he speaks.

It was a very clunky way of saying 'there are a lot of players with African descent playing for European nations, hmm I wonder how good some African countries would be if they had all of these elite European players'. It's silly barbershop talk coming from the mouth of one the world top managers.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes of course you can become a great player growing up in an African country as your list shows but what I meant is that the chances of becoming such a player in a country like France is significantly higher. It's unlikely that we would be talking about Zidane or Mbappe if they had grown up in Algeria in my opinion.

Drogba, Vieira, Benzema and Zidane are either born and bred in France or grew up in France. In the case of Vieira who does he play for, Senegal, Cap Verde, Gabon, France or Portugal?

 

[JPRouve]

The fact he probably doesn't mean any harm is a fantastic example of how ingrained racism is in our subconscious.

The part that bothers me is that this topic is generally discussed from the POV of where african people aren't from instead of simply giving them the freedom to play for whoever they want based on their personal history. We don't often see the same topic when it comes to italian or portuguese descents playing for Argentina, Brazil or Uruguay.

 

[Calidad]

While I can't name names it does seem from my perception at least that some players who could play for more than one international team end up picking the best one that they could end up playing for regularly. They'll pick the country they were born in if it's a big European nation if they think they're good enough to play for them, then drop down to the country where their parents or even a grandparent is from if they don't think they could cut it at that level or less often vice versa.

Can't say I'm keen on all that and it currently seems like some use international football to boost their careers or profile as representing a country does that better than representing no country. Sometimes it doesn't seem like it's about identity or passion for the country they end up representing which to me is what international football should really be about.

Part of me would quite like a rule where you only play for the country you're born in to curtail that but I understand the problems that would arise. You will have some players who despite only ever living in one country feel somewhat alien to it or a lack of belonging. They may feel they don't fit in or could have experienced racism. Then there are players who move with their parents to a new country when they are young, feel fully integrated and don't actually feel much at all for their place of birth.

Edit: Not even talking specifically African players, it happens with players from everywhere.

Completely agree.

There are no doubt exceptions, but this is my perception too.

 

[KirkDuyt]

The part that bothers me is that this topic is generally discussed from the POV of where african people aren't from instead of simply giving them the freedom to play for whoever they want based on their personal history. We don't often see the same topic when it comes to italian or portuguese descents playing for Argentina, Brazil or Uruguay.

Yes that too. It's as if poor primitive Africa is the only place that would benefit from things like this.

As I said, I think Mourinho genuinely says this without malice, but it just makes it more sad sort of.

 

[Physiocrat]

The principal behind it would have the likes of Grealish, Rice, and Kane playing for Ireland. Why wouldn’t they like it?

Not to mention the likes of Rooney, Gerrard, Scholes, Ferdinand, Gazza, Keown and Darren Fletcher.

Ireland would have been winning the World Cup with this.

Actually, that's fair. I was thinking about Ireland picking up clearly second rate English players in the 90s.

 

[Blackwidow]

I think Kevin Prince Boateng is another - I’m sure there are more.

Kevin-Prince Boateng has a German mother and a father from Ghana and is born in Berlin - same as Jerome (with a different mother). His grandfather actually is a cousin of Helmut Rahn that shot the winning goal in the World Cup 1954. He was playing in the German U21 - but somewhat was not called for the German team...

 

[Tarrou]

It's a silly suggestion

if players have a choice then they should get that choice themselves

not sure what else there is to say on the matter

 

[The Original]

You are overrating the ability of the US to produce players, there isn't currently lots of good players coming from the States.

Regarding the bold part, who are these african players that aren't playing for "their" national teams? Outside of few exceptions of african born players that moved to Europe as kids, the vast majority of players not playing for "their" national teams are European players playing for African national teams. If players are forced to play for "their" national teams then many african teams are in trouble.

Well, not lots but that's more to do with a dearth of talent at source rather than the system killing off good talent. Pulisic and Davies are proof that being born and bred in North America is no limitation if you have the right drive. Neither of them is half as talented as Rooney was so I can easily see a Rooney-level talent thriving there.

On the second part, the whole point of the comment by Mourinho is redefining the concept of qualifying for a national team. Under his proposal, you would have to play for your country of descent, which means, I would guess, those who are first and second-generation Europeans would be repatriated to their national team of origin.

That would include those African Europeans currently playing for African teams as well as those who qualify but choose not to.

 

[The Original]

Yes of course you can become a great player growing up in an African country as your list shows but what I meant is that the chances of becoming such a player in a country like France is significantly higher. It's unlikely that we would be talking about Zidane or Mbappe if they had grown up in Algeria in my opinion.

I understand that but I'm saying whatever worked for Mahrez, Salah, Yaya Toure, and co, could have worked for Benzema and Zidane too.

P.s as a West African I feel obliged to mention that Mbappe probably would have grown up in Cameroun not Algeria

 

[JPRouve]

Well, not lots but that's more to do with a dearth of talent at source rather than the system killing off good talent. Pulisic and Davies are proof that being born and bred in North America is no limitation if you have the right drive. Neither of them is half as talented as Rooney was so I can easily see a Rooney-level talent thriving there.

On the second part, the whole point of the comment by Mourinho is redefining the concept of qualifying for a national team. Under his proposal, you would have to play for your country of descent, which means, I would guess, those who are first and second-generation Europeans would be repatriated to their national team of origin.

That would include those African Europeans currently playing for African teams as well as those who qualify but choose not to.

So you think that Football is innate and not learned? That's just wrong, it's like suggesting that being good at math is innate and not learned, while someone may have athletic advantages, Football is skilled based and skills are developed through repetition and work which is why countries have Football identities and develop certain type of players more than others or why certain countries have always been better than others in certain sports.

The second paragraph is just daft, you are repatriating people to a national team that isn't theirs. You, an outsider, can't decide how people identify when it comes to culture or nationality. And in Africa it's a particularly daft thing to do when people identity is not really based on nationality but more on ethnic basis which often cross borders.

 

[The Original]

So you think that Football is innate and not learned? That's just wrong, it's like suggesting that being good at math is innate and not learned, while someone may have athletic advantages, Football is skilled based and skills are developed through repetition and work which is why countries have Football identities and develop certain type of players more than others or why certain countries have always been better than others in certain sports.

The second paragraph is just daft, you are repatriating people to a national team that isn't theirs. You, an outsider, can't decide how people identify when it comes to culture or nationality. And in Africa it's a particularly daft thing to do when people identity is not really based on nationality but more on ethnic basis which often cross borders.

1. I'm saying football has advanced to the point where basic football education is pretty much standard and is no longer a strong differential factor. innate talent clearly is the key factor because football knowledge is so ubiquitous now. I mean, if it were all about education, how are Africans getting into elite leagues with the least football resources?

2. Well I haven't repatriated anyone nor suggested it be done. That's Mourinho's argument. My part in this argument is simply to say that, yes such an arrangement would obviously help African teams even if it shouldn't be done for other reasons.

 

[PSV]

I think a much better suggestion would be to allow players to repick national team if they haven't featured for a set amount of time. 2 or 3 years maybe?

This prevents that early "tapping" of players, and we would see a lot of players with either a multi-national background or newly naturalized players re-enter the international scene.

 

[Red the Bear]

1. I'm saying football has advanced to the point where basic football education is pretty much standard and is no longer a strong differential factor. innate talent clearly is the key factor because football knowledge is so ubiquitous now. I mean, if it were all about education, how are Africans getting into elite leagues with the least football resources?

2. Well I haven't repatriated anyone nor suggested it be done. That's Mourinho's argument. My part in this argument is simply to say that, yes such an arrangement would obviously help African teams even if it shouldn't be done for other reasons.

Large talent pool and great physics?
I'm pretty positive Africa would at least produce one world cup winning team if it had Europe's footballing infrastructure but I can't say the same thing about Asian countries.

 

[JPRouve]

1. I'm saying football has advanced to the point where basic football education is pretty much standard and is no longer a strong differential factor. innate talent clearly is the key factor because football knowledge is so ubiquitous now. I mean, if it were all about education, how are Africans getting into elite leagues with the least football resources?

2. Well I haven't repatriated anyone nor suggested it be done. That's Mourinho's argument. My part in this argument is simply to say that, yes such an arrangement would obviously help African teams even if it shouldn't be done for other reasons.

What makes you think that?

Most african countries do not produce quality players, most countries in the world do not produce quality players, few countries with strong football culture and history do. Now regarding Africa a country like Ivory Coast rely heavily on a structure imported from France for example a large amount of players come from ASEC Mimosa and are developed by french coaches while the other structures create next to no worthy players. So no Football education isn't standard, it's not ubiquitous at all, the best countries are significantly better at developing players and also select/identify the better ones within their own system, it's a skill not a lottery.

 

[The Original]

Large talent pool and great physics?
I'm pretty positive Africa would at least produce one world cup winning team if it had Europe's footballing infrastructure but I can't say the same thing about Asian countries.

I think it's easy to test that argument. Take the one nation you think is the best one in Africa and identify the players from that country who currently hold European citizenship. Can you assemble a world cup winning team?

I would argue that the importance of facilities is vastly overrated. And I would argue that the reason Africa doesn't do as well is that football is a huge risk. So what happens is that a huge number of talented players leave the game after they leave school. In Europe, if you're talented enough you can be sure someone will give you a chance at elite football.

In Sub-Saharan Africa, especially, it's a lottery. From corruption at the grassroots level to huge competition, it's tough. And if you have a shot at becoming a conventional professional such as a doctor or lawyer, no one is going to allow you spend the next 5 years of your life earning little or nothing in the mere hopes of a shot at becoming a professional footballer.

So what happens is that those who make it in sub saharan Africa don't necessarily tend to be the most talented ones, but rather, they'e the ones who either made it very early (a handful), or had no better prospects and simply persevered with football.

I'm saying the football talent pool is cut down to a quarter because talented players need to make a living and their best prospects lie outside of football.

 

[Red the Bear]

I think it's easy to test that argument. Take the one nation you think is the best one in Africa and identify the players from that country who currently hold European citizenship. Can you assemble a world cup winning team?

I would argue that the importance of facilities is vastly overrated. And I would argue that the reason Africa doesn't do as well is that football is a huge risk. So what happens is that a huge number of talented players leave the game after they leave school. In Europe, if you're talented enough you can be sure someone will give you a chance at elite football.

In Sub-Saharan Africa, especially, it's a lottery. From corruption at the grassroots level to huge competition, it's tough. And if you have a shot at becoming a conventional professional such as a doctor or lawyer, no one is going to allow you spend the next 5 years of your life earning little or nothing in the mere hopes of a shot at becoming a professional footballer.

So what happens is that those who make it in sub saharan Africa don't necessarily tend to be the most talented ones, but rather, they'e the ones who either made it very early (a handful), or had no better prospects and simply persevered with football.

I'm saying the football talent pool is cut down to a quarter because talented players need to make a living and their best prospects lie outside of football.

I disagree, would Mbappe be the same player he's today if he was born in some slum in Africa?
There's a reason certain countries which mostly are in Europe keep producing the best players that there is and while some of it has to do with the fact that some folk are generally better in certain athletic aspects most of it has to do with infrastructure and how these talents are shaped up while they're in their developmental stage.

It's not only in football, just look at how China and the formerly soviet union mechanization sports and its developing processes pumping out Olympic winning athletes one after another.

Also it's not the risk involved either as I'm sure some of the south Africa countries were dirt poor when they produced all those great players.


As it stands you have a much higher chance of making it if you're growing in some ghetto part of Paris or London than of you grow up in Africa and it's not just because due to the risk associated with pursuit football in Africa.

 

[adexkola]

The part that bothers me is that this topic is generally discussed from the POV of where african people aren't from instead of simply giving them the freedom to play for whoever they want based on their personal history. We don't often see the same topic when it comes to italian or portuguese descents playing for Argentina, Brazil or Uruguay.

So strange man. I wonder why it's complicated with Africans.

 

[Redlyn]

Hargreaves was born and raised in Calgary until 16. To me that makes you canadian no matter what accent you speak with.

But I understand why he played for England. 99.9999% would do the same. All good. Bigger and better times ahead.

If a child is born and raised in china to American parents does it make the child Chinese? Its a complex topic and your view is way too simplistic.
Heritage / home culture is just as important. I think he is fully entitled to declare for either country.

 

[The Original]

What makes you think that?

Most african countries do not produce quality players, most countries in the world do not produce quality players, few countries with strong football culture and history do. Now regarding Africa a country like Ivory Coast rely heavily on a structure imported from France for example a large amount of players come from ASEC Mimosa and are developed by french coaches while the other structures create next to no worthy players. So no Football education isn't standard, it's not ubiquitous at all, the best countries are significantly better at developing players and also select/identify the better ones within their own system, it's a skill not a lottery.

You're making my point, really. If you're arguing that Ivorian players benefitted from a French education while in Ivory Coast, then clearly, football knowledge can be exported.

I don't know much about the setup in Asec Mimos but if there are French coaches running things there, why would you think they wouldn't replicate that elsewhere? Obviously, football education, just like all education, spreads. There are obvious degrees of quality that might remain but I'm sure you wouldn't refuse to be treated by any of the thousands of Africa-trained doctors that now work in Europe? Why would you then think that it's so different for football?

And over the years, tremendous effort has been put into the education of coaches, partner programs, and so on. If you're thinking that African academies don't have access to top-level training knowledge, you'd be wrong. So much is going on.

In fact, the investment at that level dwarfs the investment that goes into professional clubs in most sub saharan countries becasue it's a business. African academies are developing players to move them on to Europe, sometimes without them ever going through the professional league system, and this is becasue the commissions gotten off a single such transaction can often foot the bills of an entire club for a year.

Knowledge is not the issue.

I would argue, as I have in a previous post, to another poster above, that the problem is that the talent pool is much smaller than it should be due to economic pressure. Talented players who have other opportunities in Africa are more likely to pursue those opportunities, so what you have left are those who have worse opportunities, or are so exceptional that they turn pro before they finish school.

Similarly, America and Canada have a much smaller talent pool due to pressure from other sports. But Mexico is much better. Would you argue that Mexico has better access to football education and facilities than the US? I'd say the answer is clearly not.

 

[JPRouve]

You're making my point, really. If you're arguing that Ivorian players benefitted from a French education while in Ivory Coast, then clearly, football knowledge can be exported.

I don't know much about the setup in Asec Mimos but if there are French coaches running things there, why would you think they wouldn't replicate that elsewhere? Obviously, football education, just like all education, spreads. There are obvious degrees of quality that might remain but I'm sure you wouldn't refuse to be treated by any of the thousands of Africa-trained doctors that now work in Europe? Why would you then think that it's so different for football?

And over the years, tremendous effort has been put into the education of coaches, partner programs, and so on. If you're thinking that African academies don't have access to top-level training knowledge, you'd be wrong. So much is going on.

In fact, the investment at that level dwarfs the investment that goes into professional clubs in most sub saharan countries becasue it's a business. African academies are developing players to move them on to Europe, sometimes without them ever going through the professional league system, and this is becasue the commissions gotten off a single such transaction can often foot the bills of an entire club for a year.

Knowledge is not the issue.

I would argue, as I have in a previous post, to another poster above, that the problem is that the talent pool is much smaller than it should be due to economic pressure. Talented players who have other opportunities in Africa are more likely to pursue those opportunities, so what you have left are those who have worse opportunities, or are so exceptional that they turn pro before they finish school.

Similarly, America and Canada have a much smaller talent pool due to pressure from other sports. But Mexico is much better. Would you argue that Mexico has better access to football education and facilities than the US? I'd say the answer is clearly not.

Which means that it's not innate and that's the point that you made. You can't tell me that Football is innate and ubiquitous and also tell me that your point is that it can't be exported, it would have to be exported if it was innate and ubiquitus.

 

[The Original]

I disagree, would Mbappe be the same player he's today if he was born in some slum in Africa?
There's a reason certain countries which mostly are in Europe keep producing the best players that there is and while some of it has to do with the fact that some folk are generally better in certain athletic aspects most of it has to do with infrastructure and how these talents are shaped up while they're in their developmental stage.

It's not only in football, just look at how China and the formerly soviet union mechanization sports and its developing processes pumping out Olympic winning athletes one after another.

Also it's not the risk involved either as I'm sure some of the south Africa countries were dirt poor when they produced all those great players.


As it stands you have a much higher chance of making it if you're growing in some ghetto part of Paris or London than of you grow up in Africa and it's not just because due to the risk associated with pursuit football in Africa.

It's a highly hypothetical discussion but for every Mbappe you mention, I'd remind you of a George Weah, JJ Okocha, Kanu, and so on. JJ Okocha went from playing for his school team in Nigeria straight into professional football in Germany, for example. If we argue that Mbappe is a generational talent, then based on the fact that so many other generational talents have made it literally off the streets, I would say the answer to your opening question is yes.

In fact, wasn't Pele such a street player, with no shoes? If arguably the great player of all time, (I said arguably), made it from the Ghetto with no formal football education till an advanced age, doens't that settle the argument?

 

[The Original]

Which means that it's not innate and that's the point that you made. You can't tell me that Football is innate and ubiquitous and also tell me that your point is that it can't be exported, it would have to be exported if it was innate and ubiquitus.

I never said that. I said the education is ubiquitous, so since everyone has almost the same education, what remains to make the difference is the innate ability.

 

[JPRouve]

So strange man. I wonder why it's complicated with Africans.

Is it complicated with Africans?

 

[JPRouve]

I never said that. I said the education is ubiquitous, so since everyone has almost the same education, what remains to make the difference is the innate ability.

You absolutely suggested that Football was innate and also literally said that Football knowledge was ubiquitus. And education is based on knowledge, you don't teach something that you don't master.

 

[adexkola]

Is it complicated with Africans?

This conversation only pops up with Africans, as opposed to Argentinians or Uruguayans... What's up with that?

 

[Redlyn]

Depends on what Jose is talking about, if it's about players like Saka, Mbappe who have African heritage then I don't agree with that. Both of them were born in the country they are representing, they got football schooling in the same country too.

Not only was Mbappe born in France but both of his Parents were also born in France. This makes him 100% French. It would be senseless for him to represent another country.

 

[JPRouve]

This conversation only pops up with Africans, as opposed to Argentinians or Uruguayans... What's up with that?

Generally I don't know, I have asked myself that question. Particularly when I'm one of these people, my grandparents are french, algerian and malian, the "non-french" are also all french and neither of them are from the country of their other nationality. Good luck trying to pick which national team I'm supposed to represent.

 

[Red the Bear]

It's a highly hypothetical discussion but for every Mbappe you mention, I'd remind you of a George Weah, JJ Okocha, Kanu, and so on. JJ Okocha went from playing for his school team in Nigeria straight into professional football in Germany, for example. If we argue that Mbappe is a generational talent, then based on the fact that so many other generational talents have made it literally off the streets, I would say the answer to your opening question is yes.

In fact, wasn't Pele such a street player, with no shoes? If arguably the great player of all time, (I said arguably), made it from the Ghetto with no formal football education till an advanced age, doens't that settle the argument?

Pele had the luxury of growing up in the football infested atoms of Brazil and taking part in some Futsal tournaments which helped him grow, he also started playing for Santos when he was 15.

How many other peles there are who didn't get the chance to shine?let's not go on a case by case basis and look at the cold hard numbers, Europe has a 700 million population , Africa has 1.2 billion and a much much younger population to draw from(in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the under 20 number of people in Africa is triple of that in Europe and yet their output is much inferior to Europe hell the number of players with African origins in Europe who actually make it seems to be at a much higher ratio compared to their folk back in Africa, doesn't this make the case of how important infrastructure is and how inferior Africans are at it?

 

[USREDEVIL]

I like the idea. Just don't extend it to the USA.

 

[roonster09]

Not only was Mbappe born in France but both of his Parents were also born in France. This makes him 100% French. It would be senseless for him to represent another country.

I don't know, I was just looking for example and as per wiki his father is from Cameroon.

Anyways that's a minor point, looks like we both agree on the point that it made complete sense for Saka and Mbappe to represent the country they did.

 

[Red the Bear]

Generally I don't know, I have asked myself that question. Particularly when I'm one of these people, my grandparents are french, algerian and malian, the "non-french" are also all french and neither of them are from the country of their other nationality. Good luck trying to pick which national team I'm supposed to represent.

Perhaps immigration? I'm sure the number of Africans moving to Europe far outnumbers the south Americans doing the same.

Also there is this perception that Africans are underperforming while south America already has several world cup winners.

 

[poleglass red]

This conversation only pops up with Africans, as opposed to Argentinians or Uruguayans... What's up with that?

Pops up regularly for Ireland and has done for years dating back to the Jack Charlton reign where he really took advantage of the grand parents rule for non Irish players. Even in more recent times we've had the Rice and Grealish sagas and players from the North choosing to play for the Republic